Just a quick question guys.
I have been warned not to use a diamond plate on an Ark or any slate.
Can I use a diamond plate to chamfer the edges on my coti?
Printable View
Just a quick question guys.
I have been warned not to use a diamond plate on an Ark or any slate.
Can I use a diamond plate to chamfer the edges on my coti?
Well I've always used a diamond plate on all of my coticules to do so... But I might been wrong ?
Some are against using the diamond plate on natural stones to raise slurry ... But using it on the edges to smooth them does not create any problems anyway. :)
Sure, just make sure you run your slurry stone around the perimiter afterwards a little to kill any roughness from the dmt finish.
I chamfered the edges on my new Coti, I also did my small slurry stone as well. I know I didn't need to but I thought I might as well while my 400 diamond plate was out.
I played with the stone yesterday and achieved absolutely nothing so I did a bit more research this morning, one thing that was made clear is not to allow the slurry to dry while your using it.
Oops. I decided to try the unicot method suggested on the coticule site. I didn't expect to get anywhere as I only got the stone yesterday but I am speechless.
That method must be foolproof for anyone new to a coti.
I used a kinfolks full hollow and it tree tops as well as any razor in my stable. I will shave with it in the morning and really hope I won't be dissapointed.
I bought a Boker from Badgister with a coti edge, it is so smooth that I decided to get the coti. I have only used it twice so far so I will use it as a yardstick for my own coti edges, I would be so pleased if I could make all my razors as keen but smooth as that Boker.
I killed the edge on my Kinfolks and used the coti as a one stone hone from bevel set to finish as the Unicot method suggests.
Yeah, letting slurry go dry or overly muddy is bad news
yes you can
Now this is a rabbit hole you are really going to enjoy exploring.
Did Ardenes give you any hint about the vein from which the coti came? If they did, they have opened the door to another rabbit hole that focuses on the various layers from which the stone was mined.
They said they hadn't named it but it is select. It's newly mined not vintage.
I can get special stones like La Vienette or La Latneusse (don't know how to spell that one) but they are expensive and I need more rocks, lotsa rocks:rock:
OMG - what happened, I can't stop looking longingly at stones. Have you seen the Ancient Sea Jasper - Purty!
Unicot with the use of tape for creating a micro-bevel is indeed a highly effective way to finish a razor.
I modified it a bit to suit my preference and ease of use.
If I want to know how well my Coticule finishes, I just hone up my razors as usual or take an already shave ready edge, add a layer of tape and finish under running water. This always works really well.
In comparison I find my 20K and Coticule edges to be both very smooth.
About as keen, perhaps a slight advantage to the 20K;
but the Coticule edge is skin friendlier and more forgiving when finished under running water.
What I usually do with razors that aren't too far off, is hone them on the Coticule and BBW dry.
Coticule for the quicker and rougher work to make sure the bevel is set entirely and the BBW for refining and polishing the edge. Most time is certainly spend on the BBW this way for me.
I personally found this the easiest and fastest way to SMOOTH out any imperfections while create a super sharp edge.
If the bevel is too far off I resort to a Coticule with slurry, but I always refine on the Coti and BBW dry.
Honing dry gives me excellent feedback as well, I can easily tell which parts of my edge are smooth and which ones need more work.
I take a piece of folded over toilet paper and cut through it to feel for imperfections left in the edge, as long as there are I keep honing on the BBW dry until they're gone.
The edge coming off the BBW dry is always amazing. It's a super sharp shaving edge, but can use a little smoothing out for my personal taste. [Using them dry makes me forgo/replace the dilution steps with slurry, which I personally do not enjoy much.]
After refining on a BBW dry, I add a layer of tape and finish on the Coticule under running water.
Whatever gets you a superb shaving edge is all that matters!
Enjoy honing on your Coticule, I greatly enjoy mine.
I couldn't wait so i just had a shave with my fresh coti edge.
I'm a bit disappointed and will kill the edge and keep trying on the same razor to reduce the variables until I have it cracked.
Don't get me wrong, I have had a decent shave and it was obviously a coti edge because that's all I used but it wasn't super keen and smooth.
I had to work to get a decent shave, I will use the razor again tomorrow but strop it on ChroOx. After tomorrow i will start again because I would rather get it really good without the ChroOx, I guess there must be a purist somewhere in my rabbit hole.
There ya go, the slurry stone wore the print off but that's ok, I took a pic before i used it.
Attachment 330866
I know that feeling well enough.
I often make my razor shave ready finishing on my 20K.
Then I add a layer of tape, do some strokes on the 20K, as it cuts fast enough for a secondary bevel, and finish the razor.
This is what I know works for me, so it eliminates all my variables.
If I want a Coticule finish, I then go to a Coticule under running water with a layer of tape to end it.
--
I can advice if you want a good decent shave at first, to try and use the Coticule purely as a finisher and eliminating all the variables.
If I don't finish under running water on my Cotis, I dislike the shave, so there's that.
Probably why my great-grandfather and his father used their Coticule & BBW with oil.
I also find my Coti edge to be very angle sensitive while shaving, as shallow as possible.
I am fortunate that two of my coticules are natural combination BBW/coticule stones. Most of the cotis have a black clay schist backing to stabilize the coti layer. FOr mine, the two layers naturally formed adjacent to one another and blend together.
Like Tristan, I have also found that the BBW can really add to the edge. You can get a decent BBW for considerably less than an equivalently sized coticule, but, like all natural stones, they are not all same. Some are hard and great finishers, others are softer and good bevel setters.
You have to experiment to maximize the edge you get from one. A lot of guys give up on them and stick to the predictable outcomes they can achieve with synthetic stones. Natural stones can be frustrating to figure out, but once you have your stone working for you, I don’t think you’ll be happy with any other edge. My experience anyway.
Welcome to the coti club.
You do not want to lap an Ark with a diamond plate, you will ruin the diamond plate, (rip the diamonds out). But you can ease a corner with a diamond plate under running water for a few strokes without damage. If you need to bevel a corner or remove a chip from an Ark corner, use an old file. You will ruin the file for other work, but old files are cheaper than diamond plates.
Lapping or beveling a slate or coticule will not damage a diamond plate. It is how slates and coticules are lapped and beveled.
I have never heard of not using a diamond plate on slates or coticules and have lapped hundreds on various plates without issue. As said there are those that believe diamond slurry is too course, and a rubber/tomo slurry is probably finer than most diamond slurry, but it depends on the diamond plate, grit and condition of the plate and the stone.
Diamond slurry is just fine and has been use for years on slates, coticules and Jnats without issue and with great results.
Finishing under running water for final finish works very well on most Natural stones.
Did you lap the stone flat and smooth?
This morning I had another shave with the same coti edge that disappointed me yesterday except that I added 25 laps on ChroOx.
My shave today was completely different, BBS without much effort.
I will say that I am not satisfied yet, I don't expect to be because I've only had the rock for a couple of days.
The shave was close but just felt sharp, no coti smoothness.
Tomorrow I am going to set the bevel to 12K on synth so I know where I'm at and then add tape and do 30 x-strokes under running water on the coti.
I will probably spend a few days doing that to get a handle on how good I can get the edge. I will then set the bevel again on 1k and continue with the coti. When I eventually have that down I can try the whole progression from bevel set again.
I am toying with the idea of getting a BBW, basically because I don't have one :rofl2:
I am a bit confused. I have been under the impession that a BBW is coarser than a yellow coti and better for heavier work, maybe bevel setting or restoration
If that is correct and the coti is finer, why will a BBW help in a progression in the normal shceme of things, especially as a finisher?
A BBW is actually slower on slurry than a Coti on slurry, the BBW also has a higher max keenness.
There's also a popular method of using a coti on slurry and then refining on a BBW with slurry and then to finish on a Coticule with plain water.
A BBW on plain water is extremely slow, much slower than the Coti, its why they usually are used with a very light mist of slurry for finishing.
My BBW edges are never coarser than my Coticule edges, unless my Coti edges are finished under running water, then my Coti reaches a smoother edge.
I actually got much better edges using a BBW unicot method for a long time and couldn't get my Coticules as smooth or as keen.
There was a blind study over at the Coticule forum a while ago, people could hardly discern a top Coticule edge from a finished BBW edge. Half even preferred the BBW skin feel afterwards.
Very interesting read: http://www.coticule.be/heritage.html.../BBW-study.pdf
I have been using mostly my Cotis lately, but will revisit my BBW again soon to make a side by side comparison in the shave.
I think you can achieve very similar results with both stones, I do seem to switch between a BBW and Coti as favorite finsihers.
Lately I got my Coti edges as good as ever and slightly prefer them.
I also had Bart hone up some razors for me IRL and had him giving me pointers,
while the edges were absolutely amazing, I still modified his honing method to suit my preference with the use of dry honing.
Whatever gets you where you want, dry honing on a BBW is something I would like to advise everyone, I think many will be impressed by its capabilities to leave such a keen edge. However I see no need for one if you only have a Coticule on hand. Honing on a Coti dry will do almost the same, but it won't be quite as keen. It'll still give you a perfect edge that you can finish under running water.
With man made stones, the grit is a measure of “coarseness”. Low grit number = big abrasive particles and large chunks of metal removed. High grit number = less metal removed and way smaller abrasive particles.
With coticules and BBW, the size of the abrasive particles are very close, but the density of their distribution in the carrier material is less in the BBW than in the coticule. This is a pretty simplistic explanation and not likely very scientific, but it’s how I understand why it is possible to get similar edges with the two stones.
The chromium oxide is usually rated at around 30K grit. There aren’t many stones that can polish to that level.
Have you tried a couple of “weight of the razor” dry laps on the coticule after using the chromium oxide? It might tone down the “sharp” feeling of the edge and restore the typical coticule smoothness without sacrificing much, if any, keenness.
This morning before my shave I used a layer of tape and 30 laps on my coti dry, 20 laps on Cotton and 40 on leather.
It made an awesome difference, my edge is sharp but smooth!
Thank you DZEC and Tristan. To be fair PaulFLUS also suggested I try using my stone dry before it had even arrived so thanks to all three of you.
I will still hone my razor again on synths 1k - 12K then coti, 1k then coti to finish, and finally coti only from bevel to finish with with running water and dry.
I will try to avoid ChroOx because it feels a bit like cheating but I will use it if I need to.
Awesome, that's great to hear!
Great work Steve. I think you'll have it mastered if you keep up the good work.
This morning I killed the edge on my Kinfolks and set the bevel on a 1k Norton, I progressed 4K/8k and 12k Naniwa SS.
I wanted to use no tape yet but also didn't want to wear the spine so I used a layer of Kapton Tape because it's nice and thin.
My edge was great and tree topping without any problems, I didn't test shave it because I wasn't finished.
I added a layer of electrical tape on top of the kapton and did 30 x-stroke laps on my coti under running water.
I dried it removed all the tape did 20 laps on flax to make sure it was dry then did 25 laps on ChroOx (even though I said I wouldn't), 10 laps on nylon to clean the ChroOx off, 20 more laps on flax and 50 on Leather.
I haven't shaved with it yet because I have already shaved today.
My hairs don't wait for that blade now, they jump off when they see it coming so I am hoping for good things tomorrow - I'll keep ya posted.
Well, I had my shower and shave this morning. That kinfolks astounded me. The edge was really good (sharp as a razor so to speak), it was coti smooth and I had a BBS shave with no pressure, didn't even feel like a shave actually.
I am so pleased with my edge that I will use it for another day or two.
Question, I finished with my Coti under running water, my next experiment will be dry but can I just add the Kapton for my bevel angle and tape for my micro bevel or should I take the edge back to maybe 8K to ensure that the running water finish is removed?
I personally think that finishing dry would overwrite the running water edge so going back to the synths shouldn't necessary.
Indeed, you should not drop back in your progression.
As your micro bevel has been set on Coti + water, you can finish directly on 1 layer of tape dry.
Let me know how it compares to you, I find them under running water to be more smoothed out.
But I only strop on cotton or linen afterwards and not on crox. I'm interested in your findings!
Keep us posted!
Just joint the edge, and re-set in 6-10 laps.
When you joint the edge, any edge on re-set is a whole new edge. Once the bevels are flat and in the correct angle you only need to remove a few microns to make a new edge and re-set can be done in a few laps.
It will also be a straighter edge.
Try stropping after jointing and before your final laps, for an even straighter and stronger edge,
I added a layer of kapton tape (because that is how I honed it on the synths) and a layer of electrical tape.
I did 30 x-strokes dry on my coti.
I feel that using running water is smoother and more skin friendly than dry. I did use ChroOx because I had used it when I did the running water attempt so I felt I had to use it again to make the comparison fair.
I'm going to try the running water and the dry comparisons again but this time without the ChroOx.
So far I like the running water the best.
I share the same experience.
It's only when I started using my Cotis under running water for finishing that I got my best edges ever. Just need a good stropping on linen / cotton to clean the edge and on leather.
I'm simply amazed by the Coticule's skin friendliness, in that regard it certainly beats my Escher, whereas the Escher is slightly keener. Both excellent finishers, but nostalgia added a big factor when I inherited my great-great-grandfather's razors and his natural combo Coticule. I do enjoy the natural combos the most, so many possibilities. Lovely lovely stones.
Not wanting to hijack your thread, but wanted to add to the discussion.
yesterday I tried finishing under running water on my La Grise Coticule,
it was a good edge, but it wasn't super great like my LPB or La Veinette.
So today I re-finished on the La Grise's BBW side under running water.
I could clearly see on the tape that it was slower than the Coticule side.
It left a very keen and smooth edge. After a good stropping the shave was very very good and I preferred it to the Coticule side.
In all honesty I find the BBW and Coticule to be far more similar than it is different, the edges are quite alike.
I haven't tried other BBWs under running water, but with my La Grise the BBW edge shaved a little easier. Skin feel from both is excellent, I slightly prefer the BBW here as well; it was more skin friendly thant he Coti side of the La Grise.
It's worth experimenting more, but both sides are excellent finishers, where in this case the BBW has a slightly bigger potential and my personal preference.
Over the weekend I'm going to finish my razor 30 x-strokes dry but not use Chrox to see how that feels, I'll do the same with running water a few days later.
I should have a good idea what I like best to finish and whether I can get where I want to be without Chrox.
I just finished my kinfolks again, again, again. I will keep re-honing or refinishing with the same razor over and over because I want to get my Coti down and only using it when I need to would take forever. I also think that like most skills, it needs to be done over and over immediately, a month from now I would have forgotten everything I had learned if I didn't make sure it was firmly in my head.
I slightly change my technique every time, it has been said on here that just practicing the wrong way achieves nothing.
This time I finished with 30 x-stroke laps dry but did not use Chrox, I did 40 laps on cotton and 80 on Leather (English Bridal).
I shaved immediately, the shave was good, sharp and smooth, not as sharp as it was with some chrox but I think that if the edge isn't good enough for me in future I will do another 30 x-strokes, then rinse and repeat until the edge is where I want it. That might not achieve anything but there's only one way to know for sure.
I still liked the edge finished under running water best so far but that was with Chrox so my next experiment will be running water no Chrox.
I am really enjoying this Coti, one of the benefits for me is that it's fast so my different experiments don't take as long as the Ark did.
As Tristan said, my coti edges shave better and feel much smoother with a really shallow angle, shallower than usual - almost spine on skin I found.
I don't often check my face with Alum, I kind of feel if I got carried away, but today i decided to check my face. I felt the sting in about two different places on my neck but i do tend to spend a lot of extra time shaving there so all in all, I'm not unhappy with my Coti progress so far.
Get R done, Steve.
That's the benefit of learning to hone for yourself.
Finding what's most comfortable to your beard and skin type.
I don't mind a coti edge, and agree to its skin friendliness.
Its just that it has more resistance going thru my beard, so the Escher's keeness + comfort, punches my ticket.
Here's another thing to add to your list of..let's try this.
Produce your best coti edge, then take it to your trans Ark for 30-40. Should increase its keenness a bit.
I've also used a Thurigan rubbing stone, to produce slurry on Coties.
Back in the days on the Coticule forum, there were plenty of discussions about stropping on canvas after honing, the general consensus was that about 60 laps on cotton/linen will do. (of course many variables come into play, but about 60 seemed to hit the sweet spot for most)
A Coti edge needs a very good stropping on canvas and I do share that sentiment, since upping my stropping numbers coming off the stone on my cotton strops, the edges have become better. I used to be a lazy stropper, but never got rewarded for being one. Now I make sure I strop well.
I'd try doing a little more passes on the canvas coming off of the Coti.
I do need that smooth feeling edge feedback on my strops coming straight off the stone though.
And indeed, I shave with the spine pretty much flat against my face with my Coti edges.
I do remember when I couldn't get anything good out of any of my Cotis, I was so fed up with them, that I started using one of my Escher / Thuringers and had that AHA moment.
At that time I never knew exactly what was missing, but it turned out my razors only needed a good finisher, hence insert my Escher, it fixed all my problems.
I dont shave with an Escher edge anymore, but at the time it provided for a sharper, keener and a very smooth edge. I could do 1 pass ATG shaves with my Escher's edge, something I cannot do with my Coticule edges.
Not that the Coti edges aren't sharp, it's that my Escher edges were that good and gave indeed a very "lack of resistance" feeling while shaving, it is that good.
Foolishly I once sold a bunch of hones on the bay and by accident sold my Escher as well, I wish I hadn't done that. I do miss its edges. I have a different color Thuringer (lighter) somewhere but it's not exactly the same (my old one was dark), although I haven't used it in a long while, I would like to revisit it to compare.
The prices of Eschers are high right now, but so are the prices for large natural combo Cotis.
My skin can tolerate a Coti edge better on a multiple pass shave though, but I do like both stones very much. I do find that the naturals difference easily beats my synth 20K for skin friendliness.
Thanks Mike, an Escher sounds intriguing, I may well try to get one eventually but I need to really understand my Coticule and my Arks first and squeeze everything I can out of them.
Talking of my Arks, you suggested that I could try using a trans ark after finishing with my coti to add a bit more to the edge. I assume that would be as an alternative to Chrox but a question has occurred to me, will using another stone like an ark replace that smooth coti edge with an ark edge?
You didn’t ask me but I have a little experience with what you are asking. I’ve tried my hard arks after 12k Nani finish and some razors seem to respond better than others. I have also tried the same off of my 8k Nani and 5k as well as my Chinese 12k, various barbers hones etc.
I have found not too many razors can hold a 12k naniwa edge finished with Arkansas type of edge but of the ones that do they are incredibly sharp and very smooth. Some edges seem to fall apart if you take them too far. I’ve tried the same off of my little thuringian but need more experimentation. I found the edge to be a little uncomfortable but the stone is very small for what I am used to and started over a couple of times due to bad technique. The ark stepped it up for sharpness but I feel I’m still leaving a lot on the table with that little thuri before I feel I’ve given it a proper chance.
So I can’t say whether or not you would have a similar experience but well worth giving it a try. I’ve done all sorts of different pastes and stones for finishing but have found if you don’t have a decent secondary like a cotton or flax or similar you’ll be working a lot harder than you need to. I’ve been through several strops with differing man made fibers and they all seem to effect the edge negatively as far as the comfort of a shave goes. I have a couple of strops with linen and it made an incredible change to my edges. I rarely use CrOx anymore for razors, though I have a few Sheffield’s that really respond well to a few passes on a pasted hanging strop.
All this talk has me wanting to pull out the stones and give my coti a more fair shake. Once you find your way to your edge and repeatable results it makes experimenting much easier as you know generally what to expect and how to get there.
I just went through the whole coticule progression with a Wade to & Butcher near wedge. This is the first time I used Kapton tape, so I basically had to start from scratch with the bevel reset.
Thick slurry to start followed by successive dilutions and eventually water only and then the last 10-20 on the dry stone weight of the razor only.
I followed that up with20 laps on a CrOx paddle strop, 20 laps on linen and 60 on Japanese leather that I am pretty sure is a Kanayama 70000 with a different name - smooth as glass.
Got a very nice shave. My experience is that this will improve as I strop and shave more with the razor.