I had my first shave with my own edge. All I can say is back to the drawing board:p My neck looks like a crime scene.
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I had my first shave with my own edge. All I can say is back to the drawing board:p My neck looks like a crime scene.
What stones are you using?Quote:
Originally Posted by Audels1
While there are always 'Exceptions to the Rules' your experience is why I tend to recommend to wait till you've been at this age old art for at least a year. By having more experienced honers do the honing for you it not only gives you time to learn what shaving with this antique tool is all about but when you do start then you have a guide to judge your own honing by.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audels1
With that said, I would encourage learning how to 'Touch Up' an edge and it's far easier than setting a bevel and then getting a nice edge. The bevel should be already set and all you are doing is smoothing out the microscopic 'dings and dents'.
Here's a video from my good friend and Senior Mod here at SRP, I hope it will be of some help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91VMW_aAMmI
My first ever edge was not that great either. I got one decent shave, then ouch. But I just went back to my highest grit stone and it came out much better on the second attempt. I accidentally touched my cheek with the edge and could see, but not feel, the cut.
If you have got your bevel set (look for any honing post from Euclid) just more polishing will probably bring it around.
well the razor is a cheapo gold dollar that I pickup just to start learning to hone.so that could be part of the problem but I simply don't know yet.
my stones are
Norton 1000k
Norton 4000/8000k
Shapton Pro 12000k
My daily razors are all honed by others and are not in need of a touchup yet.
I am a firm believer that the best way to learn by doing.
Can you hone a Gold Dollar? Yes.
Can you learn to hone on a gold dollar? Yes, maybe.
It is the most difficult way to learn to hone, because with a Gold Collar, first you must fix the razor so it will take an edge.
Learning to hone is all about understanding what you see through the loupe. Otherwise, how will you know when you have fully set the bevel?
Take a vintage razor in good condition, that will shave and learn to refresh that edge. Then once you can constantly produce a good shaving edge, then bread knife the edge and do a full progression 1k to finish stone. At least you know the razor will shave if, you do everything right.
Skip the Shapton for now, they are notorious for edge chipping. Learn to shave from an 8k edge.
Some good advice. There are many ways to read an edge and decide if the bevel is in fact formed to a complete apex. The loupe is the most simple and reliable method I have tried. The bevel set or forming of the apex to a perfect V is the foundation of the edge. It won’t shave well without that. Here is a thread with great pictures.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...ggestions.html
I too would start with a razor that is issue free. You could take a poorly shaving good razor, kill the edge on your finger nail and look at it and bring it back. Starting to hone a razor that has no bevels and working through the proccess of making bevels from scratch is more restoration than standard honing.
Read the Second Try at Honing thread above. This thread was from a new honer, his second attempt to hone a razor, documented with good micrographs of the edge at each step in the honing process.
If you make your edges match his at each stage, you will end up like he did with a shareable edge and a much better understanding of the honing process.
Post 42, Photos 4 & 5 (upper right-hand corner) shows an edge that is close, but not fully set. Post 51, first photo, shows a fully set bevel.
Once the bevel is fully set, the rest is just polishing.
The Shaptons are fine . It's heavy handed beginners that are the problem :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
You sound just like me my friend. I too thought the best way to learn was to dive in with both feet. I was told by many of these guys to slow down. Learn to shave first and touch up a razor. I didnt listen. I did learn to hone and strop and shave and make good lather all at one time but it was a long haul. Id have to say close to 2 years before it all came together.
It seems like its an easy thing. As it says under my posts "its only sharpening". NO! Its not! 1+1=2 we all know this. But the art of honing is not as simple as it seems.
Put the Gold Dollar away for a couple years. Some day you can custom grind it into something cool. Use a vintage Amaricen blade to learn to hone with if you just have too learn to hone.
The best way to learn things is by doing, knowing what you're doing and what you're aiming for also helps.
It's not that difficult, but you must learn the fundamentals before you're going to get a perfect shaving edge. We've all been there. I also believe in going all in from the start if your eventual goal is to hone razors from bevel set to finish.
Get a good set of hones and it's all you'll ever need. For ease of use a synthetic line-up is perfect for predictability and ease of use. Also tape, it prevents that you mess up too badly; so simple, so effective.
Aside from all the help on here and the wiki and the guides.
The things that were a real eye opener for me were:
- learning the "correct amount" of pressure or rather lack thereof; for shaving, stropping and honing
with honing, you never need a lot of pressure; with shaving, you pretty much only shave with the weight of the blade. The muscle memory and the habit you will eventually create.
Perfect practice makes perfect.
- finding a good finishing stone for you personally
while a bevel set is key, I find a good finishing stone to do a lot for me personally, but that is only after you've done a perfect bevel set and refinement.
It wasn't until I had a boxed Thuringer that gave me killer smooth and sharp edges that I finally had that AHA moment for what an edge could be.
For me everything else was done right in the progression, except I needed a finisher that suited me. A 20K is expensive but also top notch. I tried other synthetics and naturals, but never got that right feeling until I found a stone that worked for me.
- edge assessment and probing
Learning what an edge should look and feel like in every step of the way is key, without any irregularities.
Once you got that mastered it's easy peasy.
(Something else, get a diamond plate, it's good for lapping your stones and to correct heels which I find myself doing rather often)
I learned to sharpen knives at an early age of about 8 years old, then I was sharpening everything under the sun as I got older. At 17, I picked up my first straight. Thirty some years later, I still come across razors that can be a real PITA to hone, and take several hours to get the bevel set properly.
Not to say it can't be done, but its not as easy as it seems.
As you say, John. You can't learn, by not doing
Fear of ruining an expensive or heirloom razor can dampen the need to see what you can or can't do. In the beginning you will find that most of us can't do much! It takes time to develop muscle.memory. that's why I think buying at least a few cheap gold dollars and having at it isn't a bad idea. The time it takes to set a bevel on a factory edge is lengthy. And in that time you are devolving the muscle strength and consistency that you need. They used to be available for $4 or so shipped (slow.boat from china, I haven't bought in years so no idea what they are now). You will ruin one or more. But for the $10 or so for the two it's well.worth it. Jmo. But I will say it's a bad idea to try to hone an expensive razor until you have some under your belt.
Also do not forget to verify geometry of your whetstones.
Probably trying on a vintage razor from era of peak production better than learning from scratch with the razor you have.
I learned like you, both feet, no in person guidance. The problem is your bevel set. Get a good clean edge, ie no chips. The edge should look consistent from toe to heel. Under 10x mag the edge should look relatively straight, there should be zero shiny areas when looking down on the edge. Keep at the bevel set until you can do a shaving pass with no leftover irritation. It will pull but it shouldn’t cut you, only your beard. This is the foundation and you shouldn’t move on until you can accomplish a shaveable 1k. Once you have done that take serious note of what the bevels and edge look like. The rest is just polishing.
You're fortunate you have a place to go for advice. I like many learned in the dark before the internet. You'll figure it out. I would try a vintage Sheffield to start if it were me knowing then what I know now. They are easier to get the bevel set than American or German steel in my experience. Both of those are rather hard as is Russian steel.
I am probably the most experienced GD honer on this board. They are not the horror show that they used to be, but they are still far from ideal for learning to hone on. If you get one that has already been properly honed then a touchup is no harder than any other razor. If you are starting from scratch with a raw razor in factory new condition, you have your work cut out for you and you would be much better off with a more refined razor of better grind.
If you insist on a Gold Dollar as your learning platform I suggest you avoid all the "W" series razors and the model 66. The 208 is a bit easier and the best would probably be the P81. I recently received a bunch of 800's from the factory along with a couple of 300's and they seem to be much more nicely ground. I am not selling anything at present so you will just have to shop around, Ebay and Aliexpress, to locate one of them. Again, if someone else has already tuned it up properly and all you have to do is refresh the edge with your finisher, no big deal. The hard part is already done for you, which is the odd bits of grinding required to make the razor hone normally. That's the part that will really hang you up, as a beginner.
The most common problem with new Gold Dollars is the stabilizer and the general area of the heel of the razor. It is too thick and intrusive, and will end up forming a heel hook. There was a recent thread on using a coin as a template for rounding the heel and getting rid of the problem area altogether. This isn't really a beginner technIque though.
If you aren't ready to set the GD aside, then have a look at my How to Buy, Hone, Maintain, and Use a Straight Razor site. There are a couple of articles on bevel setting there that might help. You absolutely must be absolutely certain that you have a good bevel before proceeding with the progression. It does absolutely NO GOOD AT ALL to spend a week or a day or a minute on finer stones if you don't have your bevel properly set. The bevel must be proven, not assumed, to be set. And with a GD, it is all about getting the bevel set. Many honers won't touch a GD because of all the extra hassle. (Are you SURE you still want to go through with this? LOL!) And a 1k is a bit fine for this work. I usually use sandpaper and lapping film for honing but when i use stones I generally start with a 320 grit Kuromaku or my 200(?) grit Suehiro. I get the heavy lifting done with the big steel removing equipment and as soon as I have a burr forming easily over about 1/3 of the edge and good results on the sharpie test, and general good conformation along the entire edge with the heel properly tamed, I start moving up through my 600 Chosera, 1k Chosera and then sidestep to my 1k Naniwa Superstone and on up through 3k, 8k, and 12k before the finish on balsa. Your 1k will take a beating, straightening out a GD. I do hope you have a good setup for lapping your stones. You will absolutely devastate the right hand edge of your honing surface, in particular.
The bad news is when honing with the heavy artillery you are more likely to make unrecoverable screwups and essentially ruin a razor. The good news is for $5 or so you can order a new one and think about what you did wrong while you wait on the slow boat from China to bring it to American shores. I even end up ruining a razor once in a while. It is a fair trade-off, for getting the razor done in a half hour instead of a day. My time is worth more than the price of the razor and I don't mind too much when my heavy handedness bites me in the hiney on one of these cheapies.
So, what model of GD do you have? If it is one of the "W" series, I would simply toss it, and this is me talking here. They are an abomination. The #66 is do-able but absolutely not recommended for a beginner. Higher model numbers are slightly more refined and the P81 is your best bang for the buck, no stabilizer, not so terrible grinding. It is also mistakenly referred to as the "1996" because with no explanation the factory etches the year that the company was established, on the tang. You will also recognize it by the two dimensional cutout acrylic scales. And it is cheaper and easier to find than the 300 which also has no stabilizer, or the 800 which is fairly well ground but cheaper than the overpriced 900.
And there is your entry into honing. Be patient. Pick a razor and use it daily until it needs a touchup, then have a go with it on your 12k, after lapping the stone, of course. The bulk of all your honing will always be refreshing the edge on your finisher. And if you can do that and get good results, and then you learn how to set a bevel, the middle stages of your progression are easy. Pick just one of your razors to be your lab rat. Identify and correct your mistakes on one razor rather than spreading out to your entire collection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audels1
The edge always starts with, and depends upon, and is built from, a good bevel. But with your razors bought shave ready, that part is already done. A touchup is all that they should ever need for as long as you own them, if you do not damage them in some way. Your raw GD, OTOH, needs "the works".
So, be patient. Wait for it. When your lab rat is no longer shaving well, that's your cue. Go with just water on your 12k until you are getting good "stiction" between stone and razor, then rinse off the stone and add a few drops of dish soap to the water on the stone and go a few dozen of the lightest pressure laps you can manage. Strop, and shave. Sounds too easy, right? But it should give you a nice shave after only a few minutes work. You will have learned to use an important feedback indicator, the importance of slurry or lack of it, viscosity of the honing fluid, and pressure regulation. I suggest that for your first time at bat, you hone in hand, which makes pressure regulation much easier. A pair of unskilled hands pushing a fragile edge against an immovable object do not always give you the best possible results. A single hand gently guiding the razor over a stone essentially floating on an unsupported hand in front of you has a much higher potential for excellence in the result.
When I decided to try honing I picked up 3 GDs for $15.00 2 are P81s with the red scales and the other has the same blade but with wood scales I don't know what model it is. here is a picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors
Attachment 332849
Thanks
John
That's a pretty fair price and yeah you have a fighting chance with it but seriously I owuld hold off on the GDs for a bit, until you have touched up another edge successfully. An edge refresh is quick and easy, and a good confidence builder, and all you need is your finisher. Then after that, try setting the bevel and running the progression on one of your GDs. Just one. No sense trashing all three. Those razors actually make fairly good shavers, by the way, once you have it set up properly. I often shave with a GD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audels1
The problem with that wooden scaled razor is the wedge. Actually it is not a wedge. It is a big heavy thick flat spacer. It doesn't set the scales properly and it puts a lot of excess weight way out at the end. I find that very awkward and even though the wood scales look nicer than the acrylic, the acrylic handles better. Thick flat plastic spacer doesn't spoil the balance as much as a thick flat metal spacer.
Problem with GD razors is that even experienced honers can get a good edge on only a certain percentage of them. As a beginner it is hard to decide whether your honing skills or the razor are to blame for a poor edge. Better get yourself a vintage quality razor.
No stabilizer, you might be able to hone that one.
It appears poorly ground, a bit of a frown in the middle and the heel is narrower than the toe.
The spine looks like it has a curve so it might make a nice smiler. If all these things are true and you hone with straight strokes you will only remove steel from the middle, (hence the frown).
Lay a straight edge on the edge to see the frown and width of heel to toe.
Still not a razor you want to learn on, first you must repair it then hone. Gold Dollars are “Kit Razors”.
The spine does have a curve but the edge dose not have a frown it may be a shadow making it look like it. It does have a smile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
The heel and toe seam to be the same but I would have to measure them to be sure.
The picture is from before my attempt at honing. so it could be that ever thing you see in the pic is true but has now changed since being put to the stones.
Well, I manage pretty well. I have actually honed and sold a few hundred over the years. I find they compare favorably in that respect to say an entry level Dovo. An experienced honer should have a very high success rate with that particular model. A beginner, yeah, he would probably find it very difficult. On that, I agree. But it could be a lot worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
In this case the OP already has three of them, bought for $5 each, and they are one of the easier blades made by the company to hone. You KNOW he is gonna try, anyhow, right? I do hope he touches up a better razor first, before getting serious about the GD, though.
