Honing issues

I feel like I am having the same issue on ever razor I try to put a edge on. (except for ones that have a truly straight edge) Thy feel like thy shave OK and in some cases very well.
But the bevel never looks even. I know that it is something I am doing but I don't know what? If I see the issue early and start chasing it and it only gets worse.
It almost seams like it happens in the same spots on the same side of the blade.

On Razor A you see the bevel starts to get bigger towards the toe and I get these scrap marks towards the heel on the spine. the scratch marks in the circle above the bevel were not there when I started to set the bevel.

On this one I use gssixgun's tape method that he explained to me in my last honing post with 2 layers of tape on top of it.
Attachment 334288Attachment 334289

Razor B ended up with the same grind marks on the spine on the same side but the bevel started to form a frown more towards the heel.
This one had one layer of tape.
Attachment 334290Attachment 334291

I am having lots of trouble getting to the heal on both.

Thanks in advance for any help.
John

Are you using a rolling X stroke.?

Honing towards a smile is usually best.

From the videos I have watched I believe I am.

I don't know what honing towards a smile means?

At this Point in Time :)

It might help us help you if you were to video your honing style

I think I might be able to do that

A video of the whole progression? or just part if it. Like setting the bevel?

Yes, setting the bevel. Everything else is just polishing

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Originally Posted by outback

Yes, setting the bevel. Everything else is just polishing

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I will definitely be following this.
I'm about to learn something valuable.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

At this Point in Time :)

It might help us help you if you were to video your honing style

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Originally Posted by outback

Yes, setting the bevel. Everything else is just polishing

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OK on the next one I will set up a camera.

Thanks
John

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Originally Posted by STF

I will definitely be following this.
I'm about to learn something valuable.

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Yea you are about to learn just how bad at this I really am....:rofl2:

Try to set up your camera at the far side of the stone. That way we can see the edge roll. But also up some. Another view from the side so we can see the water/slurry while your honing. Glen would be better at giving camera instruction.

Having a wide bevel in places can happen with warped blades or uneven grinds. You can find it on a lot of Sheffields. Another thing to keep in mind when doubling up tape, mainly with wedges, is to be sure the stone is only touching the tape at the spine. If the tape is wearing at the ends/middle of the blade then the tape is holding the blade up off the spine. This is why sometimes you have to trim your tape so it don't wrap too far down past the spines sides at times.
Hope that made sence.

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Originally Posted by Gasman

Try to set up your camera at the far side of the stone. That way we can see the edge roll. But also up some. Another view from the side so we can see the water/slurry while your honing. Glen would be better at giving camera instruction.

Having a wide bevel in places can happen with warped blades or uneven grinds. You can find it on a lot of Sheffields. Another thing to keep in mind when doubling up tape, mainly with wedges, is to be sure the stone is only touching the tape at the spine. If the tape is wearing at the ends/middle of the blade then the tape is holding the blade up off the spine. This is why sometimes you have to trim your tape so it don't wrap too far down past the spines sides at times.
Hope that made sence.

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The tape. yes it did.

When you say the far side to you mean the top of the stone (short side farthest away from me as I hone? So set the camera at the top on a angle that shows the toe of the blade? Or are you saying 2 cameras? The later would be a bit difficult .

I didn't have anything ready to hone so I put some shoes onto these.

I think Razor one might be better at duplicating what ever problem I am having simply because of the smile it has. but both are hollows and my problem razors have been wedges to some extent. Or am I just over thinking?
Attachment 334294

Just a quick pic to help explain the tape.
Attachment 334302
If you find the tape wearing out here... it's not doing the job for you. The spine is being held up off the stone some.


You need to see wear marks here only...
Attachment 334303

This happens when you have layers of tape on a near wedge razor. Not a hollow ground razor. IF you ever find this, trim your tape thinner so it doesn't wrap as far down the face of the razor. Only on the sides of the spine.

Glen is the video guy so have him explain angles and what would be best.

No, you're not overthinking it, at least not as far as wedges being more of an issue. Wedges, especially Sheffield wedges as Jerry said are more prone to spine warpage and uneven grinds especially near wedges and quarter hollows. At least that's the experience I've had. Often the grind has a hump in the middle and the bevel is wonky.
They are harder to get a handle on honing in general. If you're new to honing I think it is easier to start with hollow ground razors for this reasons mentioned. As the process becomes more clear to you and your muscle memory improves it falls into place easier...or you can go the trial by fire route if you're courageous. Just know that it comes with challenges.
You'll get it though. You're asking good questions and you have a good attitude. That counts for a lot. Be patient and listen and you'll work through it.

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Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

No, you're not overthinking it, at least not as far as wedges being more of an issue. Wedges, especially Sheffield wedges as Jerry said are more prone to spine warpage and uneven grinds especially near wedges and quarter hollows. At least that's the experience I've had.

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Also the angle of the grind behind the edge relative to the centerline is greater on heavy grinds. The closer this angle behind the edge is to the bevel angle the more the geometry issues will show in the bevel reveal widths.

Here is a video of me setting the bevel. This razor didn't give me as much trouble as some of the others.

I know that I am going to get a rash if shit for flipping the razor the wrong way but flipping it over the spine just don't feel right to me and I get get in the habit of doing it. I have no problem flipping the razor the right way when stropping but when honing I just can't.

https://youtu.be/rr1TP1os5J4

Still a bit of trouble getting to the heel.
Attachment 334461Attachment 334462

Please don't beat me up too bad..:whipped:

I'd say ya need to reshape the heel. Stabilizer is keeping it off the hone

And I see no use of doing circles on a smiling blade.

Other than that, I don't see any obvious problems.

As Outback said, that heal needs work.
Charlie had a vid showing how to hone a smiling edge. Showed the rolling x to the extreme as the razor he was using was a big smiling razor. Maybe someone can find that as it might help you to understand the rolling x. I cant tell if your rolling on this vid. And doing circles you had better be rolling as you do the circles or your just making a frown.

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Originally Posted by Gasman

As Outback said, that heal needs work.
Charlie had a vid showing how to hone a smiling edge. Showed the rolling x to the extreme as the razor he was using was a big smiling razor. Maybe someone can find that as it might help you to understand the rolling x. I cant tell if your rolling on this vid. And doing circles you had better be rolling as you do the circles or your just making a frown.

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When you say rolling I assume that you mean rolling the pressure from the heal to the toe as as I make the x stroke??/

Yes. And you should see the water move from the heal to the toe staying in front of the blade.

I wont harp at you but... When i learned to flip the blade the RIGHT way was the day it all started to come together fir me. Just saying. :angel:

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Originally Posted by Gasman

Yes. And you should see the water move from the heal to the toe staying in front of the blade.

I wont harp at you but... When i learned to flip the blade the RIGHT way was the day it all started to come together fir me. Just saying. :angel:

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I try to flip the blade over the spine but it feels so un-natural to me that I just make more mistakes trying to remember to do it. I don't know why when I can strop flipping the blade over the spine and it feels right.

Nobody is born with the skills to hone a razor or to do many things. Humans fortunately are very good at adapting themselves and learning things. The more you practice good techniques as the example above, the easier this will all become. Progress however small at first is still progress. Soon it all comes together. At first you have to think thru each step. And eventually your muscle memory will take over. Some razors are a little more time consuming than others. I didn't say harder on purpose. Because everything is hard until you know how then it's easy. Keep plugging is all I will say. Keep asking questions. You will get out what you put in.

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Originally Posted by Audels1

I try to flip the blade over the spine but it feels so un-natural to me that I just make more mistakes trying to remember to do it. I don't know why when I can strop flipping the blade over the spine and it feels right.

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Yeah if you watch my vids I do half right, half wrong,

Keep in mind it is only really "Wrong" if you hit the edge on the hone :)

You can do it either way. But the best time to learn to do it correctly is to do it from the beginning. Now, im not bitchin at you. As Glen said, you can see him doing it the "other way" in his vids. I was just letting you know that when I learned to do it properly it helped me a lot. A lot of fine details just came together. I dont know if that will work for you the same but...

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Originally Posted by Gasman

Now, im not bitchin at you.

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I am sorry if I came across like I thought you were!! I assure you I didn't. All I see on here so far is good advice.:beer1:

Although it is true that it only matters if you hit the edge on the stone why present the opportunity to do so? It is harder unlearn a habit than to learn one. I still flip it the wrong way every once in a while by accident. It really sucks when you ding the edge though, especially if you are at finish. Now you have to go back, maybe to the beginning which eats up time and steel.
Remember having to learn to let off the brake if you start to skid? That's unnatural too but you do it for a VERY good reason. Think of it that way. Skidding only matters if you hit something but who wants to do that?

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yeah if you watch my vids I do half right, half wrong,

Keep in mind it is only really "Wrong" if you hit the edge on the hone :)

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I resemble that remark, lol.