Shapton Kuromaku 2K... A good alternative to Chosera 1K and Naniwa SS 1K?

Hello, gents!

So, I'm new to honing but already have a good setup consisting of 2 BBWs, 1 Coticule with a slurry stone, a Naniwa SS 1K and a Shapton Kuromaku 1K.

I know the Shapton Kuromaku 1K is very fast and abrasive and that's why I'm planning to use it for light repairs.
I have the Naniwa SS 1K as my go to bevel setter.

Now, I'm looking for a good alternative to the Chosera 1K, and a second bevel-setting option because I've already have the Naniwa SS 1K.

I'm thinking about the Shapton Kuromaku 2K. This same one:

Attachment 336215

So, for those of you who are more experienced at honing and that might've used this one and the Chosera 1K or Naniwa SS 1K, how does the Shapton Kuromaku 2K compare to the Chosera or Nani? Is the result any good, any smooth?

I'm looking for a good alternative to the Chosera 1K because of my budget, an alternative other than the Nani SS1K which I already have and I'd like to know any comments on the Shapton Kuromaku 2K.

Thanks for any help,
Kind regards,
Mike

Sharpening Supplies has the Chosera 1K listed at $80 and the 2K Kuromaku at $68. Not exactly a huge saving. I haven't used the Chosera but from what I see around the forums it is considered possibly the best synth bevel setter money can buy. Save up the extra $10 and get the Chosera I say. I had a 2K Kuromaku but only really used it for knives, worked ok, I found it tended to glaze over fairly easily just using water however.

Mike
What you need is a progression, not another bevel setter. A 4-6k to ease the jump to a natural.

Do not get caught up in the, my 1k is longer than your 1k, hype. All 1k stones leave 1k stria. Some may “feel” smoother, harder, softer, faster, but the reality is a $20 King 1k will do exactly the same thing any high-dollar, (fill in the blank- stone) will do.

You need a mid-grit stone that will reduce the deep 1k stria, a 4-6k stone. I have all the stones from all the major makers, mostly I use a King 1k, King 6k and 8k Naniwia Snow White, then natural finisher.

The stone after the 1k or any bevel setter is a transition stone. The 1-2k bevel setter’s job is to flatten the bevels, set them at the correct angle and get the bevels to meet, (grinding).

The next stone,” transitions” from grinding to “polishing”, polish off/remove all the deep bevel setting stria. Every stone after that is just more polishing.

If you do not remove ALL the deep stria, it will fight you all the way. Try a $25 King 6k (S-3), from there you can make an easy jump to a BBW, (but there are lots of better finisher option and better edges). $25 will take your edges to a whole other level, any 4-6k will do the same thing.

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Originally Posted by CoffeeAddict24

I know the Shapton Kuromaku 1K is very fast and abrasive and that's why I'm planning to use it for light repairs.

The Chocera 1k is also fast & therefore abrasive. The difference is the scratches are not as deep.


So, for those of you who are more experienced at honing and that might've used this one and the Chosera 1K or Naniwa SS 1K, how does the Shapton Kuromaku 2K compare to the Chosera or Nani? Is the result any good, any smooth?

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If you already have the 1k Kuro, the 2k is a perfect progression to 'heal' & further refine the 1k scratches.
As far as bevel setting goes I've always preferred the finest stone that that can do the job quickly & with the least steel removed. The Kuro 2k can do the job, ezy pezy.

The Chocera stones, however, are a perfect fit for razors, the 1k easily doing the job of both the 1&2k Kuromaku.

Below is a 2k Kuromaku edge on an Iwasaki Kamisori that was chipped & rusty. Stone is fast enough to cause the burr you see. 200x.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

If you already have the 1k Kuro, the 2k is a perfect progression to 'heal' & further refine the 1k scratches.
As far as bevel setting goes I've always preferred the finest stone that that can do the job quickly & with the least steel removed. The Kuro 2k can do the job, ezy pezy.

The Chocera stones, however, are a perfect fit for razors, the 1k easily doing the job of both the 1&2k Kuromaku.

Below is a 2k Kuromaku edge on an Iwasaki Kamisori that was chipped & rusty. Stone is fast enough to cause the burr you see. 200x.

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Onimaru55, thank you for sharing your experience with me.

So, I've got 2 questions based on your explanation.

1) Then, the Kuromaku 2K is great for healing and refine the scratches from the Kuromaku 1k, right?

2) In case I don't get the 2K, but set a bevel on the Kuromaku 1K, can I "heal" and refine the scratch pattern left by the 1K using a Blue Belgian with a heavy slurry or a Coticule with slurry? Because I've got 2 BBWs and a Coticule with a slurry stone. So, I can create slurry in the BBW with another BBW or the Coticule, or whatever combination that comes to mind. Is it possible to replace the scratch pattern left by the 1K with any of those natural Belgians?

Thanks a lot for any further piece of advice,
Kind regards,
Mike

It’s a bigger jump than could be with a mid grade hone.
I go 1K, 3K, 8K.
Essentially you are going 1K to 6 to 8K. It is totally doable, but something in the middle will make the transition faster. I would choose a 3 or 5K hone. For light bevel setting you could use the 3K. It will save time and laps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoffeeAddict24

Onimaru55, thank you for sharing your experience with me. :tu

So, I've got 2 questions based on your explanation.

1) Then, the Kuromaku 2K is great for healing and refine the scratches from the Kuromaku 1k, right? Right

2) In case I don't get the 2K, but set a bevel on the Kuromaku 1K, can I "heal" and refine the scratch pattern left by the 1K using a Blue Belgian with a heavy slurry or a Coticule with slurry? Because I've got 2 BBWs and a Coticule with a slurry stone. So, I can create slurry in the BBW with another BBW or the Coticule, or whatever combination that comes to mind. Is it possible to replace the scratch pattern left by the 1K with any of those natural Belgians?

That would depend entirely on your BB's & Cotis. Certainly such stones exist. I have a Blue that can set bevels on soft Sheffields but I wouldn't use it on hard steel. Too slow. The 2k Kuro is a known quantity & will likely be much faster than the naturals. The slower/softer the stone the more you need to flatten it & the more strokes you do the more chance of a mistake.

Thanks a lot for any further piece of advice,
Kind regards,
Mike

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I have both a Norton 1K and a Naniwa 1K SS.

I was intereted in a Chosera 1K before I bought the Nani but I read up and it seemed that although the Chosera was the bees knees it needed to be used a lot.

The Chosera I read was excellent for someone that hones a lot but for occasional home use can dry out and crack.

I may be wrong, it's just the impresion I got from my reading. Anyway, I got the Naniwa 1K SS and I'm very happy with it.

I also have the 3K - 5K - 8K - 12K SS, I have the Norton 1K - 4K/8K too but love the Nani's because they're just splash and go,no muss no fuss.

I have no experience with the specific stones you mentioned but from the description of what you have I would tend to buy something more in the middle range say from 3k-5k as has been said.
My SOP is 1k, 4k, 8k, natural finish. It seems to me that you are creating a lot of work to get to fine stria after bevel set with what you have and a lot of wear on your natural stones in the process you described.
The 2k may be a good addition but if I were trying to limit the amount of stones added the mid range is where I would add and is the gap in what you have. A 4k/8k Norton is not the cheapest at $99USD but would fill that gap and then some since it is 2 stones in one. 8k is a good sweet spot to make the jump to finisher.

Everyone,

Thanks a lot for your replies. I think I might add either the Kuromaku 2K or 3K to my setup.

Kind regards,
Mike

I find the 2k is really a non needed stone in a progression that starts at 1k. Spend your money on mid range or a nicer finisher. To be honest I haven’t had a razor on anything less than 8k in 3-4 years, you don’t start at the beginning after the razor is honed, you only need a refresh, and I do that with my 12k Nani. So my opinion waste of money you got a 1k

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoffeeAddict24

Everyone,

Thanks a lot for your replies. I think I might add either the Kuromaku 2K or 3K to my setup.

Kind regards,
Mike

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I'd like to see a link to a 3k Kuromaku. I didn't think they made one :shrug:

Just had a thought :idea: Have you looked at your scratch patterns under magnification ?
I was just thinking your Naniwa 1k might do the job your'e wanting a 2k to do.
Anyone who's never used those 1k Shaptons would swear they're looking at a 600 grit finish, sooooo , if that worked you could then buy a 5k Kuromaku which would bridge to your coticule.

Once I have the bevel set properly, I rely on my combination BBW/coticule and a finisher.

With slurry, the BBW can almost act like a 3k - 4K and the coticule as you dilute the slurry to water acts like a 6K - 8K, so they pretty much cover the middle ground between a 1K bevel setter and a 2k - 4k stria remover.

The trick is that BBWs and coticules are natural stones and no two work the same way, so you have to learn how to max out the stones you own.

My progression with a blade that needs to start over from bevel set is:
1. coarse DMT diamond if I have to reshape the blade and hone out nasty chips (leaves really nasty scratches)
2. 1K diamond plate to dramatically reset the bevel and hone out little chips and dings (leaves nasty scratches)
3. 1K Shapton Kuramaku to set the bevel and start removing scratches
4. BBW slurry => plain water
5. Coticule slurry => plain water
6. a finisher (Vermio, Oozuku or la Lune)

I use to use a Norton 4k/8k, but now feel confident using the BBW and coticule, so it hasn’t come out of the box for a while.

After the finisher, I often use CrOx on balsa to put a final polish on the edge.

I use a 2k in my progression. 1k king, 2k, 5k, 8k 12k Naniwa ss Before I had the 2k I would spend quite a bit of time at the 5k level cleaning up the bevel. I had occasional inconsistency due to not getting all the 1k scratches all the way out of the edge. The 2k makes a nicer transition for me and saved me a little time, my edge consistency is higher too. It’s a lot of stones though.

Most stones aren’t necessary for a good edge. Learning what you have and how to use it is where I would start then fill in the soft places in the progression. That being said, I would look for a 4-5k hone to make the transition to the coticule more appropriate. A Norton 4K/8k isn’t a slouch. Moving from a 8k edge to a coticule will most likely give you a better finished edge more consistently and in far less time. YMMV.

Thank you all for your suggestions.

My usual progression, from factory edge to "shave-ready" (at least, "shave-ready" for me) has been similar to this one:
https://shavelibrary.com/w/A_simple_...e_and_Coticule

I use the Naniwa SS 1K instead of the DMT-E which according to that article in ShaveLibrary is 1200 grit.
After setting the bevel on the Nani 1K (when the razors starts cutting arm hair) I jump to the BBW with slurry then start diluting until it's plain water.

Then, I finish on a Coti with out slurry, no pressure.

But I do that based on that article by Bart (November 30, 2008).

So far, I've been shaping my beard with an Edelweiss that I honed in that fashion. The shaves have been very comfortable with no irritation or nicks. But I've not tried a full shave yet which I believe is the true test. I'll get a full shave maybe in December because I (and my wife) love an almost-full beard.

So, I'm thinking whether any of my BBWs would replace the scratch pattern from the Shapton 1K. As I mention, the BBW and Coti don't leave any rough edge after the Nani, and so far I believe I'm not doing it so bad because shaping my neck area (very sensitive) has been very comfortable.

I think I might try honing the TI that it's on the way to my home, with the Shapton 1K and then jump to BBW with heavy slurry and then diluting. Then, finish on coticule. However, I'm dubious if that will work with the TI (it's an Evide Sonnat) because I've read the still is harder than most German stuff.

Also, I'd like to ask, if I can use the Nani 1K to replace the scratch pattern left by the Shapton 1K, and then jump to BBW with slurry and then Coti? I know YMMV but I don't have a microscope to get a closer look to the bevel. But maybe you guys with more experience can offer some insight if I can do that...

Thanks again for your time helping a honing beginner!!
Kind regards,
Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoffeeAddict24

Also, I'd like to ask, if I can use the Nani 1K to replace the scratch pattern left by the Shapton 1K, and then jump to BBW with slurry and then Coti? I know YMMV but I don't have a microscope to get a closer look to the bevel. But maybe you guys with more experience can offer some insight if I can do that...

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It's hard to give an answer once naturals are involved as they can vary so much.
Just try it. You don't need a microscope. An 8x or 10x loupe will show enough of the scratch pattern for you to decide if it is working.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

It's hard to give an answer once naturals are involved as they can vary so much.
Just try it. You don't need a microscope. An 8x or 10x loupe will show enough of the scratch pattern for you to decide if it is working.

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I think I will give a try before getting the 2K.

Thanks a lot!
Kind regards,
Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by STF

I have both a Norton 1K and a Naniwa 1K SS.

I was intereted in a Chosera 1K before I bought the Nani but I read up and it seemed that although the Chosera was the bees knees it needed to be used a lot.

The Chosera I read was excellent for someone that hones a lot but for occasional home use can dry out and crack.

I may be wrong, it's just the impresion I got from my reading. Anyway, I got the Naniwa 1K SS and I'm very happy with it.

I also have the 3K - 5K - 8K - 12K SS, I have the Norton 1K - 4K/8K too but love the Nani's because they're just splash and go,no muss no fuss.

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The Naniwa 1K Superstone seems to do a good job cleaning up the bevel made with many other faster 1k stones. To me it seems that my 1k Chosera or 1k Norton (yes, I realize that the Norton is ANSI grit and 1k ANSI is a bit coarser) bevel benefits greatly from a few laps on the Nani and makes subsequent stages go faster and cleaner.

I also add a few pull strokes and a few SHORT x strokes at the end of every stage. This does a lot to get rid of the "edge boogers".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoffeeAddict24

Everyone,

Thanks a lot for your replies. I think I might add either the Kuromaku 2K or 3K to my setup.

Kind regards,
Mike

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Get the 3k. I am probably going to get one, myself. It doesn't load up as badly as the Naniwa SS in that grit. But the 2k isn't bad. I had the loan of one not long ago and I liked it right after the 600 Chosera.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

I find the 2k is really a non needed stone in a progression that starts at 1k. Spend your money on mid range or a nicer finisher. To be honest I haven’t had a razor on anything less than 8k in 3-4 years, you don’t start at the beginning after the razor is honed, you only need a refresh, and I do that with my 12k Nani. So my opinion waste of money you got a 1k

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After the 1k, totally agree. 2k not really doing much. And too many guys go too deep refreshing an edge that the 12k Nani or some 1μ film will touch up just fine.

Now the 2k is nice right after a 600 Kuromaku or Chosera. If I was starting over with what I know now, I wouldn't even buy a 1k. My 320 and 600 are my work horses, and the jump to 2k is very smooth and pleasant and fast. A fast 3k is probably going to be my next purchase, actually. My 3k SS is a PITA some times.

Seems like you are obsessing about the wrong end of the stick. A 1 to 2k jump or another 1k is a sideways move, yea it is better, but just go to a 4-6k and make a real difference.

The real goal is to get to an 8k finish/edge, or as close as possible if you jump to naturals. Look at your edges, it does not get straight until 8k.

Get the bevels flat and in the correct plane and meeting with whatever it takes, 600-4k, (depending on the razor condition), as long as you remove the deep stria completely and start polishing.

8k is the game changer. Then it is just polishing. 8k to a natural is a piece of cake, or can show that your “Natural” finisher is not better than an 8k.

1k to a natural can be done, but it is all about the stone and technique, (slurry). A good Jnat can easily remove any 1k stria in about 40 laps, so it is totally about the stone and technique.

Slurry is a double edge sword, it can multiply stone grit, but will also edge impact, dull and chip an edge. Try setting a bevel on a 1k with slurry and look at the edge, now wash off the stone and do 20X laps and notice how even the stria pattern becomes and how straighter the edge becomes.

So, even with an aggressive 1k how deep the stria is, can be more about technique than the grit in the stone.

Maybe it is just me but I don't really get investing so much in synthetic stones if to finish you are going to nats. I love natural stones, especially Arks and the other really hard stones for finishing and although the low end must be done for the high grits to make any difference, once you're on to the nats, as long as you got successfully to a complete, clean bevel it doesn't matter what you did it with. You're going to remove all the stria from whatever it was and it's either straight or it's not. You definitely have to get there efficiently but when you shave with a razor you will absolutely never say, "Wow, that bevel setter is really smooth!" I would cover the basic needs and save the mad money for where it's going to matter. It may not matter to you now but it will. Not that long ago I never honed past 8k, and could still shave just fine off of it, but I have an embarrassing amount invested in money and time (creating hones out of rocks found in the wild) invested in natural stones. You just don't ever know where you'll find yourself...

Just my humble opinion. Your milage may vary.

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Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

when you shave with a razor you will absolutely never say, "Wow, that bevel setter is really smooth!"

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While I agree in general with the practicality of your post. After being involved with stones for a while many of us enjoy the feel, efficiency, or even appearance or aesthetics of particular stones at particular grit levels in our progression. Hence the quest by many for natural bevel setters or natural mid range stones. So if you take the preface of 'when you shave with a razor' away from the above statement, you may indeed say "Wow, that bevel setter is really smooth"