DMT Breakthrough!

I've been str8 razor shaving and attempting to become decent at honing my own razors for about six months now. I would say I have been fairly successful at honing. I have at times struggled with difficult razors for one reason or another, mostly from my newness and inexperience to honing. I would like to share with you something that has happened with me in regard to my honing skills:

I have in my honing arsenal: a DMT #D8C, 3x8, for lapping, DMT #W6EP, 2x6, for bevels, a 3x8 Coticule, a 3x8 Blue Belgium, a 2x8 Mueller Thuringen, and a 2x6 MST Thuringen, and a .5 CRO2 paddle strop.

I recieved a Puma, 4/8, on an Ebay auction. Unfortunately, it had a very large chip at the toe (convieniently not pictured in the auction pictures). - otherwise, in very good condition (paid $42.00). I got out the 1200 DMT and started working on getting out the chip(yes,I taped the spine). It wasn't going well, or fast enough for me. I looked over at my DMT 325 continuous that I have used only for lapping, and thought, "Why not! What have I got to loose". I started on the 325, and very soon I had worked out the chip, and under the scope, the bevel was GREAT. I went to the 1200 DMT and started with a series of very, very light X patterns. Took it to the scope, and WOW, the bevel was very dark with little to no light on the edge. I then did X's on the Coticule and the Mueller Thurengen till I was very happy of what I saw in the microscope(and, yes,I now leave the tape on throughout the entire honing prceedure). Stropped it 100 times and got, perhaps, the best shave of my str8 razor life(and I have been getting great shaves)! BTW, I have discontinued using slurry on all of my hones. I have found it doesn't seem to help my edge any, if anything, the edge seems to deterioate with this process.

Since then, when I have an old Ebay or even an old razor that I want to clean up from past honing efforts, or a new blade, I go straight to the 325, then to the 1200, and now I hardly use the 4K Blue Belgium anymore, or the Coticule, - I go straight to polishing on the Mueller Thuringen for the finial polishing phase. I have been incredably successful my last 12 or so razors by using this method. My shaves have been more than exemplary - each one is better than I could ever imagine. I can't seem to find the words to describle how incredable the edges on my razors are, and how unbelievable the shaves have been.

The new formula: 325 DMT + 1200 DMT + Mueller Thurengen. Yes, there are some variables in there, but if I have an old bevel that isn't polishing up well, or an edge that I just can't seem to darken the sparkles of light on, I go right to the 325, and it's just downhill and easy from there.

My entire world of honing has opened up and changed, for the better. Honing has become easy, quick, and a real joy. I know there will be those of you who will critisize this for going against SOP(standard operating proceedures), but, I'll tell ya, this is really, really, working for me!!!!

NOTE: I would like to thank Josh Earl for showing me that it's okey to try different things, even though it may not be "an accepted way in the opinion of the experts". "Josh, you are my hero, and I thank you!"

Thanks, and Best Regards,

Steve Boyd

I love my DMT D8C for setting a new bevel. Anytime I get an Ebite razor with any kind of damage or a ground off edge (got one that way) I hit the 320 DMT, 1200, 4k/8k, 1.0/0.5 pasted paddle, and strop for effect. Not been disapointed sence.

Steve, I too have seen the magic of the DMTs. Have a continuous 325 and 1200 (just received) can't wait to try out your progression. I also have a Belgian Blue and Yellow and after spending quite some time speaking with Josh have figured out (maybe) a good way to utilize my entire arsenal to produce a great edge.

Thank you for continuing the experimentation, you give the rest of us hope and encouragement. :tu

BTB (by the by), I forgot to mention, I never have a problem with wire edges or microchipping with this process.. also, pyramids are becoming a thing of the past with me. Once that bevel is dark,and the edge is relatively dark, and straight, one polishing routine on the thuringen is it. No more struggling. If pyramids are necessary, then I know I haven't spent enough time on the DMTs.

Steve

Howard from theperfectedge.com told me that if you have to spend more than 10 min on a particular stone to get results, then you are not using a course enough stone. I can't say that a DMT 1200 was ever not course enough for me though.

I am glad to hear that you are finding success!

Having said this, I also think that 320 is too coarse. I don't even own one. I usually do all my low level work on 1200. I have tried 600 and this has been too coarse for me so I don't seem to use it save for lapping.

Cheers
Ivo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by izlat

I am glad to hear that you are finding success!

Having said this, I also think that 320 is too coarse. I don't even own one. I usually do all my low level work on 1200. I have tried 600 and this has been too coarse for me so I don't seem to use it save for lapping.

Cheers
Ivo

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Ivo,

Logic would dictate here, and I would normally agree with you. Perhaps my ignorance was the key in my using the DMT 325 in this instance. Either way, the venture was most succesfull! I am only guessing that perpaps there is something about the properties of the DMT that has made this possible. :shrug:

Is it probable that a 325 in a natural or a synthetic stone is too coarse to set a bevel, where as, the DMT is allright? I would have to say so, IMO.

Regards,

Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zepplin

Ivo,

Logic would dictate here, and I would normally agree with you. Perhaps my ignorance was the key in my using the DMT 325 in this instance. Either way, the venture was most succesfull! I am only guessing that perpaps there is something about the properties of the DMT that has made this possible. :shrug:

Is it probable that a 325 in a natural or a synthetic stone is too coarse to set a bevel, where as, the DMT is allright? I would have to say so, IMO.

Regards,

Steve

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I think the case against it has to do with something called "metal fatigue," which I don't fully understand. I think the idea is that you might end up with a good sharp edge, which may however be weak, more prone to microchipping later on, etc. The way a paper clip that's been bent and then bent back will be easier to break.

But while metal fatigue itself is a fact, I have no idea if it's a solid fact or just a hunch among several honemeisters that a coarse hone will cause it. Randy for one is quite set against going lower than 1000, but you're not the first to have good results with it. I think I remember reading that Joe Chandler will sometimes start an ebay-razor on 600 grit sandpaper.

It would be nice if one of the guys here who knows steel inside out – Papa Bull? – would weigh in on this.

If it works, I won't argue. Give feed back on the long term condition of the edge though please.

PuFF

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zepplin

Is it probable that a 325 in a natural or a synthetic stone is too coarse to set a bevel, where as, the DMT is allright? I would have to say so, IMO.

Regards,

Steve

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You are not setting a bevel on a straight razor with a DMTC; you are just removing metal very quickly. 1000 grit is also a metal remover and might set a rough bevel. 4000 grit sets a good bevel. Higher grits polish the bevel.

I am presently shaving with four razors honed by using this process.

If a bolt of lightning were to come from the sky, and all my beautiful edges were to crumble in to dust, I will report back to you all. - otherwise,I will continue to begin my all honing jobs with the DMT 325.

* Did ya hear the one about the guy who jumped off the building?
Well, as he passed each floor, he said, "so far so good".

Maybe you experts are thinking of me in that way. :D

Steve

What popped into my mind was: 'If it sounds stupid but it works, then it's not stupid'.
If I ever get the time to attack a couple of fleabay razors, I'll have to try your approach.


Wayne

Seeing how we are on the topic of DMT stones, has anyone tried the new DMT D8EE 8000 grit Diamond ston e yet? If so, how did it do? Impressed or dissapointed? Would like to know as I would like to add some DMT's to my arsenal as well.

Thanks guy's!

Zepplin,

I've talked with Howard in the past, and I just double-checked his site . . . he recommends that the DMTs only be used to flatten your whetstones, but not to use them directly on straight razors.

That said, if you check DMTs' website, you'll see that the D8C (325 grit)
and D8E (1200 grit) have a continuous surface http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/diasharp.htm

However, the W6EP is a perforated surface http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/whetstone.htm
that would not be good for a straight.

I'd stick with Howard's recommendation and at least avoid using the perforated whetstone on your straights.

YMMV

Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tombuesing

Zepplin,

I've talked with Howard in the past, and I just double-checked his site . . . he recommends that the DMTs only be used to flatten your whetstones, but not to use them directly on straight razors.

That said, if you check DMTs' website, you'll see that the D8C (325 grit)
and D8E (1200 grit) have a continuous surface http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/diasharp.htm

However, the W6EP is a perforated surface http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/whetstone.htm
that would not be good for a straight.

I'd stick with Howard's recommendation and at least avoid using the perforated whetstone on your straights.

YMMV

Tom

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Tom,

All I can say is, "so far so good". :shrug:

No deterioration of edges, no wire edges, and no chipping. I am lovin' these DMTs! I do go straight to the 4K Blue Belgium after, and then to the Thuringen. Sometimes I will throw the Coticule in the mix depending on what the "edge" is needing. Different razors seem to want perhaps a differerent order of progression and/or a different set of pyramids, but for now, the beginning of my proceedures will start with the 325 + the 1200 DMT.

The only thing I haven't tried is a finish with a dry Coticule or a Thuringen. - Don't know if I will, but maybe, if I get a stubborn edge. Sometimes, I struggle with the finial edge. Perhaps I am too critical of what I see in the microscope. There have been times when the edge (dark as possible) just never gets where I want it, but the razor will pop forearm hairs and shave like a dream. :shrug:

Regards -

Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tombuesing

Zepplin,

I've talked with Howard in the past, and I just double-checked his site . . . he recommends that the DMTs only be used to flatten your whetstones, but not to use them directly on straight razors.

That said, if you check DMTs' website, you'll see that the D8C (325 grit)
and D8E (1200 grit) have a continuous surface http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/diasharp.htm

However, the W6EP is a perforated surface http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/whetstone.htm
that would not be good for a straight.

I'd stick with Howard's recommendation and at least avoid using the perforated whetstone on your straights.

YMMV

Tom

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You are correct about what is said on the site; however, if you talk to Howard directly I can guarantee that he will recommend using the DMT 1200 and DMT 8000 grit stones on razors. He is one of the main people that started to get members using the DMT-E, Belgian Blue, Belgian Yellow Progression. Personally I like to use the Norton 4K instead of the DMT-E whenever possible, and if it is not realistic then I will use the DMT-E followed by the Norton 4K before going to the Blue and Yellow.

Howard did encourage me to try the DMT X-Fine 1200-grit for eBay razors, and he has endorsed the 8000-grit on this site. I think the statement on his website is to keep people from thinking that a relatively coarse DMT hone is all they need for a straight. You wouldn't want a bunch of people calling after trying to shave with a 1200-grit edge... Ouch. :)

I do agree with the overall thrust of this thread: A good bevel and straight, chip-free edge are essential for a razor to reach its maximum potential, and sometimes using a coarser hone is necessary. I personally have had great success with DMTs. :)

Just my 2 cents,
Josh

Howard should really address this, but

I'm simply trying to clarify the distinction between DMT continuous stones which have a solid surface and the rest of their stones which have a perforated surface.

The continuous stones that you all mention are good for straights, I just remember Howard warning me against using the perforated stones on straights.

Tom

Just for the record - there were barber hones that were "perforated" and they were supposedly a scientific "improvement" - but I cannot attest if this was true or just a marketing idea

I think that when I use 600 I notice the metal teeth / roughness in the edge under magnification.

By the way, I am not one of the guys who espouse the *wisdom* that if you spend more than 10 minutes you are using the wrong hone. I don't race, I am trying to get a nice edge (for me, with my skills and my limited arsenal of hones). I remember once I used 200 but generally I try to stay away even from 600. YMMV, of course

Cheers
Ivo

Tom,

That's a good clarification--sorry I misunderstood. :) Howard said the same thing to me. I do own a 600-grit DMT with the holes, and I found that it damaged a couple of razors pretty well, especially when it was new. Even after it was broken in, spike-tips sometimes catch in the holes. And if you need to do some back and forth honing on a single spot on the blade, it leaves weird groove marks on the bevel.

They also don't cut as quickly, since there's less diamond per square inch. My 1200 continuous cuts faster than the 600 but leaves a finer scratch pattern.

I'm keeping the 600 for knives. In a pinch I'd consider using it for a razor, but the continuous hones are much better in my opinion. :)

Josh