Is the geometry of the razor ;12-17 degrees likely to impact edge lifespan on razors that go through a past on cloth step? Would you use tape on a razor at the lower end of this range?
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Is the geometry of the razor ;12-17 degrees likely to impact edge lifespan on razors that go through a past on cloth step? Would you use tape on a razor at the lower end of this range?
Yes. A razor that is around 12 degrees will not hold up to much.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattnat
I would definitely tape such a candidate.
16-17 is fine and should keep an edge decent enough.
It has more to do with the quality of steel and heat treatment.
I restore a lot of well honed razors. Even though some might be restored to near new condition, the hone wear is still there. I always tape the spine to its original thickness. Which can be tricky at times, depending on actual wear.
But I use tape on every razor. Most razors with light to moderate, even hone wear, require only one layer. Two or more for others. Just on a average
Perfect, would you just use the max width of the tang as starting width?
Does kapcom tape resist Wear better than 3m electric?
I’ve had no issues with 3M and thus haven’t tried the Kapton tape. The other thing that seriously can effect the life span of an edge is how much time you spend honing above 8K. The theory behind that is that above 8K seriously thins the area directly behind the apex, and eventually leads to the apex breaking down. Also to avoid this you can micro bevel. The nuances of getting a very sharp edge with great lifespan is wildly debated and requires much experimentation.
Yes. Typically there's no hone wear at the shoulder of the spine. That's what I go by.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattnat
But you'll get the idea of how much tape and were to put on, just by working with different razors all the time.
General rules of thumb with Tape
Target angle of SRs is 16-17° going back hundreds of years
a 6/8 razor using 1 layer of 3M 700 tape increases the Bevel angle .67° (less than 1 degree) smaller razor more change...
Spine Wear 0-1mm use 1 layer of 3M 700
Spine Wear 1-2mm use 2 layers
Spine Wear 2-3mm Use 3 layers
After 3 layers it can get kinda squishy while honing so make sure the razor is worth the trouble
You CANNOT add steel to the spine (Yes there is a thread on here where I added a new Brass Frameback Spine to a razor) so even if you re-grind the razor you CANNOT change the final geometry with out making the blade smaller.. Math Sucks sometimes :p
Bevel angle the easy way
Spine thickness/active width X 57.3 degrees = _X_ degrees. remember "Active" width is from edge to where the spine touches the hone
The Magic Marker test is your friend, color the edge of an unknown razor, hone 2-3 strokes see what the hone is touching and what the bevel looks like...
I'm skeptical on taping spines. Since if the spine is taped and thus won't worn out with the edge, then the angle get larger and large eventually.Quote:
Originally Posted by outback
I’ve seen hundreds of razors with worn spines but never seen a razor with excessive hone wear to the bevel over time because the spine was taped.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjin
Eventually being the operative word, I don't think you're likely to ever see that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjin
Hone wear can happen very fast, I got a Gold Dollar to play with and those things have some big ol spines so i honed it without tape with the intent of wearing the spine, omg it happens fast on 1K.
Trust the guys that really know what their talking about, if they say tape you should listen, they will only say it so many times.
I've no doubt of your results. Just curious what could be the cause of that. If the razor was made with only one steel and heat treated evenly, I would expect the bevel to wear out faster as there is significantly less material.Quote:
Originally Posted by markbignosekelly
Nah, it's not that I don't trust you guys here but rather the results were counter intuitive and I'm going to be sleepless if I cannot find out why...Quote:
Originally Posted by STF
I've only worked on 6 razors so far, 4 new and two vintage ones that need minor restorations. Those new ones all came with spines in different magnitude and I have to say there was fair bit work to get them into the shape I'm happy with. I had to use diamond plate to get the job done in reasonable time.
Those two vintage ones, on the other hand, the spine came in almost perfect shape and no obvious wear at all. But after fixing minor chips on the edges, both spines now have fair bit of wear. Note that I only used 1K stone to remove the chips and set the bevel.
You just gotta do what you have to do to make it work for you! Adapt and overcome, you'll be fine in the long run!Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjin
If you are losing any noticable spine on a razor in good condition you are simply using WAY too much pressure!Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjin
Significant (1mm-2mm) in width should take many years of honing when honed properly without tape.
When going to a 1k stone you need to concentrated the pressure to the edge=torque. It should not be much pressure anyway or you will create other problems.
I do not use tape anymore but I did for some time and recommend it for new honers till they can get a consistant edge. This will prevent unnecessary wear to the spine.
I always use tape on every razor. How much depends on the existing angle. To help get a good measurement you can marker not only the edge but the spine. Do a couple of light strokes then measure from the very edge to the near edge of the place on the spine where the marker wore off and measure the thickness of the spine from that same spot. I usually shoot for 17°-18° as I prefer an edge to be slightly obtuse rather than acute, the thought being that it should be more durable.
You can fix chips without wearing down the spine or losing to much metal along the edge if you raise the spine slightly off the stone while honing out the chips. With micro chips, you’ll lose almost no metal. With larger chips, you’ll minimize the amount of metal you’ll need to remove from the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjin
In my experience a diamond plate to remove small chips is kind of like using a sledgehammer to peen a razor pin. It’ll remove a lot of metal quickly, but if you don’t use a light touch, you’ll take off way more than you have to. I prefer to spend more time with a 1.5k - 2k stone and stop to check regularly with a loupe.
I save my 1k or lower grit diamond hones for my knives or to repair significant chips or other edge damage on big razors where there is enough metal that losing some metal still leaves a razor with reasonable width. Then I judge whether or not I have to modify the spine to correct the edge geometry.
Learn to torque/twist the razor while honing, instead of downward pressure.
Takes practice, but will save your spine from undo hone wear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjin
You answered your own question. An inexperienced hand can destroy a spine double quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjin
As said previously torque is your friend
I guess my mistake was actually thinking all razors are the same. While I was trying to fix the geometry issues on those brand new ones, despite I pressed super hard, 1K stones simply did not cut. Eventually I had to use diamond plates. But after that I did not see obvious worn after over a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by stoneandstrop
The I used a bit more pressure than my usual honing to fix those chips. It looked it was too much, also those vintage razor spines seem to be much softer than new ones.
Just double checked, One is Bengall, the other one is Kropp. For the Bengall one, had to set the bevel twice as there was a mishap and the spine lost was about 1.5mm. Not an issue really as the edge was removed about 2mm too.
For the Kropp one, the spine lost was about 0.5mm, not much but I can see the original curve is now flattened a bit.
I will tape the spine for vintage one from now on, especially for restoration work. I don't really have any concerns around new one so far except unhappy with Dovo's ground. 3 brand new Dovos, none was even close to any of those vintage ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbignosekelly
Lol, not an issue really, as I destroyed the edge maybe 10 times quicker.:shrug:
Thanks. Those are really good tips. I thinks I'm still at early exploration stage. So far I can get the edge I like, acceptable durability. However, I also make mistakes you guys might never make. It's a trial and error process for me. I know what you guys are probably right but still want to try and see...Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
I guess I confused you some how. I had to use diamond plate to fix the spines of new razors and it still took long time to get it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by DZEC
And I only used 1K stone to remove the chips on edges of those two vintages razors and I was surprised on how fast their spines worn out.
Vintage razor spines are no different than modern ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjin
You need to reduce pressure on the spine. Unless you are trying to remove larger chips a 1k should be plenty.
What kind are you using?
Maybe use tape for anything on a diamond plate then reestablish without tape on 1k. Diamond leaves very deep scratches that will create problems later if they are not adressed.
Some Hints
Use tape until you leave no wear on the tape, then do as you please
The Older the razor the softer the spine in comparison to the Edge, yes it was tested on here years ago not a Theory it was proved
One layer of tape is protection, Multiple layers is correction, there is a difference
Can you post a link to anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I would like to see how it was tested.
New or older has never seemed different in spine wear to me unless you are only referring to really old W&B types.
Anything from the 40's and on seems pretty consistant hell even from the 30's on.
Definition of Vintage pending.
Have I got this right ?
You were trying to correct some warped razors by flattening the spine ?
If so, you realise that a warped razor with a flat spine is still a warped razor ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoneandstrop
Basically anything post 1906 and Double Hollow were pretty close spine to edge. also hard to test Or as I said the older the razor the more likely the more the difference
The older Sheffield's were exactly the ones that had the most difference,
I remember back in the day having discussions out how so much wear was created on them,, all kinds of theories were put forth,
It has been 15-16 years since the tests went on but if my brain is working well tonight you might try searching some of Josh Earl's old posts.. I think you can still access them..
The biggest problems with these tape discussions is the idea that most people can hone and keep the wear even and equal,, The proof is right there on the spine that this is simply not true for most honers..
We literally have people that are Grinding the spine to Un-warp a razor this is a common occurrence now since my friend Matt introduced the idea of Tap and Wobble .. He and I disagree on this, although I am pretty sure he intended it for mostly GD razors
Simple is what simple does, Use a layer of tape to hone until you can hone without wearing the tape, then do as you please
One layer of tape is Protection Multiple layers are Correction...
For sure, the really old ones could show some difference hence the vintage comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
For me 90 years is certainly vintage but they are pretty consistant from the age bracket I stated.
I have always advocated the same for learning - start with tape and learn, then remove.
I believe its the best advice one can give to someone new, assuming goemetry is good of course.
Thanks, but diamond plate was used to fix the spine as 1K stone was too slow and they never caused an issue. The 1k stone was Naniwa Kurouto, which did not seems to do much on those Dovos but was super fast on the two vintages, despite I pressed lighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by stoneandstrop
I was just surprised to how fast Kurouto was on those vintages and that's why I asked if those vintage steels are different. They look much softer than recent ones to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I was right then. Such thing would perfectly explain why I struggled to fix the spines of new ones even on diamond plates but thinned vintage spines much more than anticipated on a Naniwa Kurouto 1K.
Not sure if you were referring to my posts. If yes, I have to say sorry that I confused you. As I mentioned earlier, all 3 Dovo came with geometry issues in different magnitude, spine issues were the least of the concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
I guess both of mine were Sheffield's, and exact same behavior.
No worries. I guess I misunderstood what you meant by " spines in different magnitude"Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjin
Dovo released warped razors in the past so I assumed;)
We all know the adage about dog years. In the same line of thinking but with the opposite direction we can consider tree years. I have often pondered the exact meaning of "lifetime warranty." Are we talking about a bristlecone pine's lifetime or a fruit fly's? Perhaps when it breaks, that was the end of it's lifetime?Quote:
Originally Posted by stoneandstrop
Straight razors should last for centuries. That being the case I wouldn't consider a 90 year old razor as old but more post adolescent. Straights in the form that we know them have existed since at least the 16th century although not many that old are still around or at least not still in use.
I don't really consider any of mine as "old" unless they are pre 1870s. You are right though that ones made from the early mid 1900s on are more consistent. I think manufacturing was more controlled/controllable once that century mark passed. It seems especially so after WWI; funny how wars seem to move us forward. It's a sad thing that we seem to be at our zenith while seeking to destroy each other.
I once received a flashlight for a Christmas gift that said "Lifetime Warranty" on the box. Reading the fine print it said that the product was warrantied for, and I kid you not, "the life of the flashlight" I've laughed about that memory ever since.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
I meant "spine issues in different magnitude". Missed "issues" somehow. I never imaged I could see so many different issues on a single razor. Spine issues are relatively easy to fix but a warp edge is beyond redemption. I eventually got it shave ready, but there was way too much trouble. So Dovo really deserves the reputation here. And I wish I had seen those sooner and would have walked away from it.
Lol, if I remembered correctly, PNY did the same with their thumb drive warranty...Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman7