HHT off the Coticule

So I got my coticule in the mail today from Jfala! Couldn't be happier! The stone is gorgeous, a nice sqareish bout.

Of course I sharpened a few razors with it, and got some great edges off the stone. I did notice however, that while they would wipe arm hairs off easily, they didn't pass the HHT like some of my other razors, even after heavy stropping. Should I give these blades more strokes on the coticule, or is this rather normal? I've read that sometimes edges off the coticule don't take to the HHT like off the Norton.

No shave tests yet, so I can't be sure about anything yet.


Cheers,
Landis

Landis,

You're right--sometimes the coticule edges work well on the HHT, at others they don't. I'm getting better results as time goes on and I develop my touch with this particular beast. Sometimes you get amazing results, like the Goldedges I've done, and other razors split and peel the hair as if they're pretty dull. It doesn't seem to correlate very well with the shave test either way, so I'm mainly using the HHT out of occasional curiousity. :)

Oh, and an edge from the coticule with a slurry will pass better but shave worse for me. I like the edge I get from using plain water only.

Just my 2 cents,
Josh

I have several razors that were honed by honemeisters and not one of em pass the hanging hair test but they all shave well. This leads me to believe that it isn't such a reliable test!

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Originally Posted by Loochie

I have several razors that were honed by honemeisters and not one of em pass the hanging hair test but they all shave well.

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Well then I must be a honemeister of grand proportions - I never seem to get a reliable HHT! :roflmao
However, my blades do seem quite sharp and provide a close shave. BTW I have been using only a Barber Hone and .5 and .25micr Diamond Pasted strops. I'm picking up a Norton Waterstone Kit at Rockler tomorrow - on special now - Flattening stone, 200/1000 & 4000/8000 for $99. Seemed reasonable.

The HHT tells you that your razor is sharp. No dull razor passes it.

But it does not tell you that your sharp edge is a smooth edge, and you need a smooth edge for a nice shave.

What's more, failing it does not tell you that you've got a dull edge. Weirdly, a very sharp but smooth (non-toothy) edge can fail it. Enter the coticule edge. Someone with better science can say why this is so.

The HHT is just one ballpark indication among several. Between my wife and me we've got a lot of variation in the hanging hairs around this house, and I personally find the thumbpad test and a modified version of the armhair test (holding the razor very gently, very slowly, against one arm hair, a centimeter away from the skin, to see if it pops without pressure or leverage) more helpful. But you'll often hear from guys here that the only real test is the shave test, and they're right.

I have most of the popular hones and find the coticule is all around the best. You can get some fantastic edges that shave like a dream and last a long time. I usually use arm hair shaving to tell when its getting there but I find with most razors I can tell by the sound and feel when its shave ready. I don't fuss with the other tests. Shaving is the ultimate test.

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Originally Posted by dylandog

The HHT tells you that your razor is sharp. No dull razor passes it.

But it does not tell you that your sharp edge is a smooth edge, and you need a smooth edge for a nice shave.

What's more, failing it does not tell you that you've got a dull edge. Weirdly, a very sharp but smooth (non-toothy) edge can fail it. Enter the coticule edge. Someone with better science can say why this is so.

The HHT is just one ballpark indication among several. Between my wife and me we've got a lot of variation in the hanging hairs around this house, and I personally find the thumbpad test and a modified version of the armhair test (holding the razor very gently, very slowly, against one arm hair, a centimeter away from the skin, to see if it pops without pressure or leverage) more helpful. But you'll often hear from guys here that the only real test is the shave test, and they're right.

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I believe it is because, just like we use knives with serated blades to cut through bread, the fine teeth act like a hacksaw through the hair.
The microscopic teeth are so close together that when we push downward on the HHT, we aren't pushing in an exact 90 degree angle and therefor are creating this hacksaw movement on the hairs.

Often burr left on an edge can make it fail the HHT. Best to run the blade through cork prior to honing to get the best results.

Just my scientifically minded opinion of course.

Graham.

The modified armhair test, as Dylandog put it, is far more reliable. In fact, if you wave your razor a centimeter away from your arm over your armhair and you hear a quiet raspy sound and the razor effortlessly pops (catches and cuts) all the hair in its path, it is almost certain to be shaving sharp. It may not be smooth enough, but is usually within 2-3 more strokes to being properly honed.

You have to pay attention to the quality of the cut though - a lot of razors will catch the hair - including grossly overhoned ones, and even ones honed on a 2K stone. It is the quality of how they cut the hair after the catch that is an indication of shaving sharpness. A properly honed razor will cut the hair effortlessly, without bending the hair, without splitting it lengthwise, without pulling the follicle and without much noise, just a quiet pop.

Shave with the blade and see what you get. The HHT is so subjective as to be relevant only when comparing blades with your own hair from the same section of your scalp.

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Originally Posted by Howard

Shave with the blade and see what you get. The HHT is so subjective as to be relevant only when comparing blades with your own hair from the same section of your scalp.

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This really sums up the limitations of HHT in my experience. I have fine hair and was always frustrated by failure of HHT (my wife's hair is ultra curly so also fails, and the cats won't stay still long enough). Then I found that a friend's hair would pop like mad on the same blade. And I could even get a little success (snagging hairs on the blade) with hair from the top of my head (compared to front and back).

I now only ever use SHT (snagging hair test) as an indication that I might be nearing sharpness. Ultimately I only know for sure when I shave with the blade.

An interesting thing to consider is that no commercial blade (Merkur, Feather, Derby - whatever) fails the hanging hair test, the modified armhair test, the "original" armhair test, or whatever. Some may consider these "too" sharp, but you have to agree that these blades are not overhoned - because if they were they'd go bad after the first stroke on a beard.

They last 5-10 shaves without even stropping, and you have to admit, that is pretty impressive performance for a blade that is only hardened to Rc56. I bet if one got their straight to that level of performance (10 shaves without stropping), they'd be singing the virtues of that blade in ballads.

What this most likely means is that those commercial 50 cent blades are optimally honed, and unfortunately that implies that straights that don't pass the HHT are not. That such straights give a good shave is true, but not necessarily indicative of optimal honing.

My personal theory is that most people get comfortable with a certain level of sharpness that is enough to cut their hair without pulling too much - after all the body rapidly adjusts to an applied pain threshold making the shave seem painless. Most people stop at this point thinking that their blades are properly honed (and they are, for their unique beard/skin/pain threshold combination) but are they optimally honed? Sorry to burst the bubble, they are not.

Once you get a straight truly sharp, it will pass the HHT, the OAT, the MAT or whatever, with ease. It will also shave differently; you will be using very little pressure, almost floating the blade off the skin - and it will last 8-10 shaves without stropping.

However this may not be how you like your blades - but that is your prerogative - your optimal point of sharpness is not the same as mine or someone elses, so it finally boils down to whatever pleases you.

I think that's a good point. Optimal sharpness, whilst succeeding at HHT 100%, does not equate to optimal shave. And this accounts for a commonly held belief that feathers are too sharp, by which people often mean too unforgiving.

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Originally Posted by karkarta

Most people stop at this point thinking that their blades are properly honed (and they are, for their unique beard/skin/pain threshold combination) but are they optimally honed? Sorry to burst the bubble, they are not. Once you get a straight truly sharp, it will pass the HHT, the OAT, the MAT or whatever, with ease.

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There are guys here for whom the feather edge is the holy grail, and they're experimenting with 30K shaptons, double bevels, newspaper print, etc. to get there. And I'm sure you're right, Vijay, that razors at that level of sharpness won't fail the HHT.

But the thing is, the HHT is not a flat-out consistent indicator for normal honing, even 'normal' honemeister honing. There are lots of guys here who'll attest to their best Lynn- or Chandler-honed razors "failing" the HHT yet giving superb, float-through-the-beard shaves where you only know it's cutting from the sound. What's more, the razors will often pass the HHT at lower grits and then stop passing it as you go up. I can get an HHT every time with a Norton 4k and even with a white Ark! (~1200). And often as not, those same razors start failing the HHT after I've taken them to a coticule and they're shave-ready. Some say this has to do with 'toothiness'. I have no idea, but I have seen this effect time and again.

What you say about guys getting comfortable with less-than-optimally honed razors would certainly apply to me, and others I'm sure. But there are a lot of genuine honemeisters here who can take steel wherever it will go, and the consensus among them seems to be that the trade-off of sharpness is durability. An 'optimally' honed razor is one that strikes the right balance between these two things. The HHT is just an indicator, it's like church bells telling you you're near the center of town – but it's not to church that you're headed.

Also, I wonder about the argument that a feather-sharp straight can go without stropping for 8-10 shaves. I'm beginning to wonder who has the high pain threshold here :D. But seriously, does this make sense? A sharper edge is by definition a thinner edge, which will need realigning more often, no? Ultimately, I wonder if it makes sense to extrapolate from the properties of factory-produced DE blades. From what I understand, they're coated with something that keeps the edge from needing realigning. It dulls without really 'fraying', so to speak. I don't know if that effect is reproducible with even an optimally honed straight.

Anyway your post was food for thought obviously, so thanks.:)

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Originally Posted by Howard

Shave with the blade and see what you get. The HHT is so subjective as to be relevant only when comparing blades with your own hair from the same section of your scalp.

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...and generally at the same time as diet can effect the amount of keratin protein in hair which gives hair its strength. Stress can also be another factor.

so many variables to list which make the HHT so inaccurate.

You can generally tell by the sound and feel on the hone if and when the razor is ready for stropping. I normally just run it up my forearm to pop hairs that way.

Landis,

Happy to hear that you are enjoying the stone. I got exactly the same results as you off of that exact stone. Blades wouldn't pass the HHT but shaved wondefully.

Enjoy.

While we are at it, let me play devil's advocate for a bit. And let me put in a disclaimer - what I am going to argue is merely for the sake of argument. I don't mean to imply that anybody's honing skills or shaving skills are not upto par. I am going to write what follows because I feel that it will advance our collective understanding of honing and the sharpness and smoothness of an edge.

First, what's to say that Feather sharpness is not the "correct" level of sharpness? Are we relying only on the opinion of someone who has never shaved with a razor that sharp? In that case it could very well be that the technique used was at fault, and correcting the technique would result in a revaluation that the Feather edge is the Holy Grail of Sharpness.

Secondly, if it were that the Feather is exactly what a razor should be like, then inevitably it would pass the HHT. This is consistent with all the literature in barbering textbooks etc. about a properly honed razor passing the HHT. Why doesn't the literature mention even once that the HHT is subjective or unreliable? I mean, that was the accepted standard for professional barbers for decades, maybe centuries, so how can we dismiss the HHT so easily? Isn't it the more plausible explanation that it is our razors that are improperly honed?

Thirdly, why should one assume that honemeister honing is optimal? I mean, you take a guy who's been shaving with a razor he "honed" himself - one that pulls like crazy. And he gets a razor that is far better than that from a honemeister. Certainly he will experience a far smoother shave - and this logically points to the fact that the honemeister edge is far better than his own. But what if the honemeister edge itself is not quite optimal? I mean, when we go about setting a reference point about what a properly honed edge is, why set it at what is achievable by one or even a hundred honemeisters - why not set it to the Feather level?

Fourthly, shouldn't a sharper edge also last longer? After all, it is cutting with less resistance, i.e., less probability of distorting the blade or edge and dulling it? How come a straight razor edge needs to be stropped so often, and even on pasted strops every day but not a disposable blade? That teflon or platinum coating is largely marketing hype - both are significantly softer than hardened steel, and they could hardly have the elasticity needed to keep the edge aligned - i.e., a much harder and stronger material from bending. And at the sub-nanometer edge geometry, those materials can do nothing at all.

Fifth - what if I argue that a Feather-sharp edge can easily go 10 shaves without stropping, and give an ultra smooth shave each time? And that it is perhaps a shaving technique error that causes the edge to dull prematurely? I mean, face it, we are all untrained here, trying to learn a fine art by ourselves; shouldn't we put everything to the unflinching light of logic? What data suggest that our technique is absolutely correct and a finer edge must dull earlier? Available data actually suggest the opposite, in fact.

And sixth - what else do we extrapolate from other than factory honed blades? I mean, a factory honed Merkur DE blade meets all the criteria that were laid out in barbering textbooks, gives a fantastic shave, lasts for a plurality of shaves without stropping (and more if the shaving technique is optimized) - the holy grail of the edge in other words. Certainly there are very few barbers in existence who hone their own blades and provide straight razor shaves. And even if there are - I have had shaves from professional barbers who do a surprisingly bad job. So how does one set a reference point for a blade and the edge?

OK then - enough of that. In my personal opinion, I tend to agree that the HHT is not a very reliable test, that the Feather is not the Holy Grail of Sharpness, honemeister edges truly are superb and so on - but in the absence of a point of reference, I have to question everything. I have tried 30K shaptons, newspapers, double bevels, 0.1 micron polycrystalline diamond pastes, monocrystalline diamond pastes, chromium pastes, boron pastes, powdered alumina, you name it - in search of that elusive perfect edge.

I can achieve Feather sharpness with no difficulty now, and make a blade far sharper than that. It will last a long time too - and you could shave for a minimum of 10 days without stropping. It is easy to do, and you can do it too if you want - it will be the best edge of your dreams. It will consistently pass the HHT, and with butter like smoothness. But you won't actually be able to shave with it. Simply because it will slice your skin without the slightest provocation. I believe that there is a range of sharpness of a blade wherein it is sharp enough to slice through wet hair smoothly, but not sharp enough to slice skin. That is the true balance that an edge meant for shaving must strike.

Again, in my humble opinion, it is possible to make an edge that strikes that balance - but there is a range of sharpness values that meet that balance condition. At the lower end, you get shaving smoothness but not necessarily a pass on the HHT - this is where a honemeister may place the edge - and at the top of that range is shaving smoothness, a consistent pass on the HHT, but an unforgiving edge - i.e., one that slices skin with the slightest error. In other words, where the Feather is.

And finally where in that range of sharpness you put your own edges depends on your level of comfort.

This is my "explanation" that fits the facts; I could be very wrong, so please provide your inputs - I would much appreciate them.

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Originally Posted by karkarta

I can achieve Feather sharpness with no difficulty now, and make a blade far sharper than that. It will last a long time too - and you could shave for a minimum of 10 days without stropping. It is easy to do, and you can do it too if you want - it will be the best edge of your dreams. It will consistently pass the HHT, and with butter like smoothness. But you won't actually be able to shave with it. Simply because it will slice your skin without the slightest provocation. I believe that there is a range of sharpness of a blade wherein it is sharp enough to slice through wet hair smoothly, but not sharp enough to slice skin. That is the true balance that an edge meant for shaving must strike.

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What honing method do you use to achieve the level of sharpness that you describe?

My honing technique is very simple - if I am creating a new bevel, I do it with a Shapton 2k. Then Shapton 4k, then blue Belgian with water, then coticule with water. Up till this point, I use figure-of-eight sharpening - 6-8 times per side of the razor till the razor seems to have some kind of suction on the stone. No back and forth between grits, and moving to a higher grit only when the current grit is done. Once this stage is finished, the edge is shiny, mirror polished, and it already has an edge that will shave, but with pulling.

Finally I dry the coticule and do single back and forth passes on the dry coticule, checking every 2-3 passes to see if the razor catches hair. If it does, I strop on a plain leather strop (actually just a piece of 5 year old handamerican leather that Keith had sent me as a sample) that I keep on the back side of the coticule for flatness. Then I test to see if the razor catches and cuts arm hair about 1 cm away from the arm. If it does, I stop at this point because it is here that I get my optimal shave - no pulling and no skin irritation. Doing this leaves micro scratches on the edge - no more mirror polish, but the razor cuts much better.

Takes about half an hour from establishment of a bevel to shave ready.

To go beyond that, I can do 8-10 single passes on a 30k Shapton and this will get me to Feather sharpness. 6-8 passes on 0.25 micron polycrystalline diamond paste followed by 6-8 passes on 0.1 micron poly diamond paste will take me much further. Unfortunately, at this time the blade begins to catch and slice skin too, making it useless for shaving. I have, for the sake of experiment, shaved with this level of sharpness - needs a very light touch, is very unforgiving - make a small mistake and you see blood immediately, but the edge remains strong - not overhoned or brittle.

But why bother - all I need for the upkeep of my razors is a coticule and a plain old piece of leather.

Regarding Feather sharpness and the devil's advocate point of view. My own $0.02 is from the experience of being shaved with a Feather. I went to Truefitt & Hill in London some months ago and was lucky enough to receive a "gentleman's shave" from the resident barber. An old Italian guy called Jimmy who, according to others there, was about as experienced and skillful an old-school barber as you get. (I certainly benefitted from some of his tutoring after the shave.)

The shave Jimmy gave me was light, deft, skillful, and incredibly relaxing. But it was not as close as a traditional straight. When I remarked on this (and I must have seemed a little disappointed) he was quick to explain that to get closer he would have had to exert some more pressure which risked stress on the skin due to the nature of the Feather.

I haven't received another shave from a Feather since, nor have I tried one myself, but I'm of the opinion that sharpness is not the ultimate arbiter of what's a great shave. Sure, there has to be a base level of sharpness, but I strongly believe the type of steel, type of hone, type of strop all play a part, which the Feather (being machined) does not. Sure, it's sharper than possibly any traditional straight, but that doesn't mean it gives a preferable shave. And I wouldn't assume it's all about technique either.

BBS smoothness is about cutting the hairs under the skin surely? As theyre pulled by the cut, they slice under the outer dermis. A lighter touch wouldnt achieve this so I think a balance between sharpness and touch needs to be sought in order to get the ultimate shave.

[quote=karkarta;144851](I believe that there is a range of sharpness of a blade wherein it is sharp enough to slice through wet hair smoothly, but not sharp enough to slice skin. That is the true balance that an edge meant for shaving must strike.

Again, in my humble opinion, it is possible to make an edge that strikes that balance - but there is a range of sharpness values that meet that balance condition. At the lower end, you get shaving smoothness but not necessarily a pass on the HHT - this is where a honemeister may place the edge - and at the top of that range is shaving smoothness, a consistent pass on the HHT, but an unforgiving edge - i.e., one that slices skin with the slightest error. In other words, where the Feather is.

And finally where in that range of sharpness you put your own edges depends on your level of comfort.)

I agree!

From the Wikipedia page on skin - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidermis_%28skin%29 - "The outermost layer of epidermis consists of 25 to 30 layers of dead cells."

If you are removing any cells past this point, you will experience irritation. If you go "under the skin" as you put it, regardless of blade sharpness, you will experience the worst razor burn imaginable. If there is any way there is to cut a hair below the skin line, it is by pulling the hair out and then cutting it. Fortunately, you will pull the hair out just a little bit if your razor is at the lower end of the sharpness scale, and your second stroke over this area will cut the pulled hair (sort of like what Gillette advertised with their two-blade razors).

If you have a really sharp edge like the feather, it won't pull the hair out on that first stroke, and the second stroke will do nothing but slice off the upper strata of the epidermis along with some more hair, leading to razor burn. Thus, a blade at the level of feather sharpness will actually shave less close than a blade at a lower level of sharpness for a given level of skin irritation.

But it will be better than a blade that is less sharp with only one stroke on any given area of skin.

If you want to prove this for yourself, do the following experiment:

Using your favorite razor on one side of your face and a feather on the other, shave such that on any given area of skin, you take exactly one stroke with the razor. With or across or against the grain is your choice, but you need to do the same thing on both sides of your face. In some shaving videos you'll see people doing the same area of skin multiple times in the same pass - basically scraping the same spot again and again before moving to a new spot. Don't do this, especially not on the feather side :eek:.

Which razor gives you the closer shave?

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Originally Posted by poona

BBS smoothness is about cutting the hairs under the skin surely? As theyre pulled by the cut, they slice under the outer dermis. A lighter
touch wouldnt achieve this so I think a balance between sharpness and touch needs to be sought in order to get the ultimate shave.

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Vijay,

You've raised some very interesting points here. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree at this point, but I do disagree on a few of your points (some of which are rhetorical, I know).

- The barber text I own doesn't talk about the HHT. It advocates the thumbnail test after honing and the thumbpad test after stropping. So at least in this edition, the HHT isn't held up as a standard.
- If some barber texts did teach the HHT, and I'm sure some did, these barbers were mainly using hones that we'd consider relatively low in grit. Some did use coticules, but the 6-10K barber hones seem like they were the standard in their day. I find that blades in the 6K range do the best on the HHT. After that, it's unpredictable. I get the best HHT results off the 4K Norton or 6K Belgian blue. I think it's because the edges are toothy at this level.
- Some guys have reported failing the HHT with a Feather blade. I actually find that my hand-honed blades often perform better on the HHT than my Feather did before I sold it. The Feather actually responded a lot like an overhoned 8K edge--it tugged the hair before cutting it.
- I don't think I buy your assertion that it's possible to make a straight shave for 5-10 shaves without stropping. The commercial razor companies have spent a lot of money researching ways to make a dulling blade feel sharper. That's where the coatings and machining techniques come in. They reduce friction, which makes the shave feel smoother. Disposable blades are also ground at a more acute angle, I believe. A straight is a compromise between sharpness and the ability to resharpen over and over.

Just my two cents. Great discussion--keep it coming. :)

Josh

Josh - great counterpoints, let me address each point one by one:

Your first and second points I completely agree with - it is entirely probable that with the advent of the synthetic barber hone, the HHT became a fairly reliable indicator of sharpness, and that is where the whole thing originated. This does mesh in well with the fact that edges off the Belgian blue usually pass the HHT. It also meshes in well with the fact that earlier books, like La Pogonotomia, which advocated Belgian coticules as the best razor hone do not mention the HHT. And I agree, it most likely is the microserrations that causes this to happen.

Well, it is possible that the Feather blade fails the HHT for some guys, but you have to agree, by and large, DE blades like Merkur, Derby etc pass the HHT with surprising frequency. I mean, the Merkur isn't even considered "too sharp", but it too does a good job at the HHT. A data point is a data point, and it has to be factored into any logical line of reasoning, which is why I hold on so tenaciously to this point, at least for the purposes of analysis and discussion.

It seems logically incongruent for some crappy steel hardened to Rc 56 to provide 5-6 shaves without stropping, but a premium steel hardened to Rc 63 has to be stropped every shave. Ipso facto this can't be about the steel or about the hardening - therefore it has to be about the sharpness of the edge.

Think of the humble kitchen knife cutting carrots on a chopping board. If your knife is completely dull, like a butter knife, forget it. If it is somewhat sharp, it will cut, but you'll be applying pressure and you'll be doing slicing or scything or sawing or whatever motions to get it to cut. Unfortunately, your additional pressure will also cause the edge to strike the chopping board with some force, dulling it further. You may then steel the knife, and the cycle goes on.

With the ultra sharp knives though, you'll find that you use much less force, you can stop smoothly before the edge touches the chopping board etc, and generally you can keep your knife in top shape with little or no steeling. Your cutting technique needs to be good however.

It would be logical to assume a similar situation for razors, with the chopping board replaced by a new line of hair every time one line is cut. Yes, because there are air gaps between hairs, the razor will tend to "hit" the hair as a knife hits a chopping board.

To me it is borne out by experiment that a sharper razor needs lesser and lesser stropping, and I am certain that this is a reproducible result. Therefore I disagree that razor manufacturers put in teflon or fluorocarbon or platinum coatings to make a dull edge seem sharper. No, I believe that they make the edge sharper by design so it can be used without stropping.

Why then the coatings? I believe it is like this: if you have a really sharp, and I mean really sharp knife and you try slicing carrots, you'll find that the knife "binds", i.e., sticks to whatever it is cutting. This is probably because the cut is so fine that suction comes into play and causes the knife to bind. Japanese knives such as the santoku solve this by adding dimples to the blade, which cause air leaks and release the suction.

I believe that with a very fine edge on a razor, one sees exactly the same phenomenon: the razor tends to bind with the hair, making excessive force necessary to move the blade, and because of the higher sharpness level, this causes razor burn at best and nicks and cuts at worst. Manufacturers add all sorts of coatings to reduce this friction so that the extremely sharp blade will slide through the hair it is cutting smoothly so people will use less force, and cut themselves less. Witness the Mach 3 design - it was supposed to be used like an artist holds a brush - to reduce the risk that someone would apply pressure while shaving.

With the slightly duller edge, there is no binding, but you need stropping.
It is eminently possible to sharpen your Rc 63 straight to far beyond the sharpness level of an Rc 56 Feather - but you can't coat the blade, so you'll get some pulling (not the painful variety) just a feeling that the blade is sticking to the hair (a "what is wrong with the shave cream today?" feeling), and if you increase pressure, you'll cut yourself. Bad, bad shaving edge, in other words.

And this is why I don't believe that the Feather edge is the Holy Grail of Sharpness. I totally agree that a straight is the best possible compromise - you have a smooth shaving edge, but you need to strop and microscopically realign the edge every so often.

this is a very interesting discussion and I am following it with great interest.

Personally, I agree with Vijay's ideas of personal adaptation to specific sharpness / smoothness and a optimal comfort edge range (for a particular person). I also use HHT all the time, with varying success (=varying shave quality correlation), and in combination with other tests.

Now: a *crappy* blade and 5-6 good shaves without stropping? - maybe :shrug: I myself was never thrilled that much with DEs, but I didn't try many, and probably technique was a big hurdle. (Actually, I have used a DE or a multi-blade for many more shaves than that, like 1/2 year :eek: - but in reallity for very infrequent shaves). It may be very possible to get 5-6 or more good shaves without stropping a straight too (as Vijay says) - but I like the shaves better when I strop right before I use the razor. Not several days prior to use, not the previous day, not 3 hours before the shave. On the other hand, I think the Germans are famous for using very little stropping, like 10 or fewer passes on leather, and I am not sure if they do it every shave. I find I prefer a different approach.

Logically, we must accept the possibility that if we were stropping the DEs or re-coating them - whatever, they may serve even better, and longer - no?

Old timers say leather stropping only dresses the edge - this may be the equivalent to the DE coatings (and possibly - even the inspiration for these coatings, for all I know)

I had some other points and ideas but I forgot them, lol

Cheers
Ivo

Ivo,

Don't know if it helps, but when I have my barber shaves in India (with my Henckels JT-1 - equivalent of a Dovo Shavette), the barber "strops" the blade on his palm a few times before starting. I don't know if this is because of some possible force of habit from his straight days, or because it really makes the edge perform better. Well, more data into the mix.

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Originally Posted by izlat

Logically, we must accept the possibility that if we were stropping the DEs or re-coating them - whatever, they may serve even better, and longer - no?

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Originally Posted by karkarta

Ivo,

Don't know if it is helps, but when I have my barber shaves in India (with my Henckels JT-1 - equivalent of a Dovo Shavette), the barber "strops" the blade on his palm a few times before starting. I don't know if this is because of his force of habit from his straight days, or because it really makes the edge perform better. Well, more data into the mix.

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Vijay,

Cool :D

In a similar line - Tony Miller has shared how one worker from Honduras at his workplace was "stropping" a box cutter or exacto knife and also some other blades on various media (his palm, among others)...

Cheers
Ivo

Just saw a documentary on sharp things, the part on straight razors was a freaking joke :rant:

Anyway - there was a part on Schick. It turns out the human hair is as tough as copper in the same diameter - WOW. Talk about wire beard - we were 100% right. So the guy from Schick said the edge is very sharp but would take a beating like there's no tomorrow WITHOUT 2 edge coatings. The first is Ti, for strength. The second I didn't get but is for slickness.

The documentary also talked about the katana's convex grind, and the idea that if a blade is slick enough it would last much longer.

Btw, I wasn't aware that katanas are never sharpened - as they said - is this really true? Hard to believe. But there was also something on the concave vs convex edge: convex profile creates much less resistance, and material being sliced is pushed easily away. Not so with the concave edge.

Cheers
Ivo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by izlat

Just saw a documentary on sharp things, the part on straight razors was a freaking joke :rant:

Anyway - there was a part on Schick. It turns out the human hair is as tough as copper in the same diameter - WOW. Talk about wire beard - we were 100% right. So the guy from Schick said the edge is very sharp but would take a beating like there's no tomorrow WITHOUT 2 edge coatings. The first is Ti, for strength. The second I didn't get but is for slickness.

The documentary also talked about the katana's convex grind, and the idea that if a blade is slick enough it would last much longer.

Btw, I wasn't aware that katanas are never sharpened - as they said - is this really true? Hard to believe. But there was also something on the concave vs convex edge: convex profile creates much less resistance, and material being sliced is pushed easily away. Not so with the concave edge.

Cheers
Ivo

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Not according to my Mother! My Mother, by the way, is a 76 year old Japanese woman whose very soul seems to come out of medieval Japan!

Thanks - I was doubting this myself. Together with what I saw in the straight section - I wonder now how much credible the Schick part is, too :shrug:

Cheers
Ivo

Ivo - the dry human hair is tougher than copper wire of the same diameter - but when wet it is much softer. Hence all the hullabaloo about lather, softening the beard, method shaving etcetera. Of course that can be taken too far, since once saturated, the hair really cannot hold any more water. So beyond a point, all that stuff is just hot air... errr... water... ummm... lather. :D

And even khukuris are convex ground; I cut myself once on one as sharp as a razor - well - not shave ready straight razor, but say a used DE blade. They are incredibly tough knives too, and at least in Nepal, there is a lot of mystique that surrounds them. Unfortunately they don't yet have the western exposure of the katana, so they are inexpensive.

See http://www.himalayan-imports.com/ for khukuri info.

Vijay -

this may make sense for Schick then - because their users mostly use some crap from a can for several seconds before the edge hits the hair, not real soaking :D

Thanks for the info - I am fascinated with Everest, sherpas, etc. The fact that these khukuri are inexpensive is not unfortunate :) But I am not sure what I would use one for... Maybe hiking and stuff?

Cheers
Ivo

You make some interesting points. Let me weigh in.

First, the HHT has not been dismissed lightly. It hasn't really been dismissed at all, at least by me. It's one test of an edge that tells you something about the edge. A thumbnail test is another test. For me, shaving is the best test. The HHT has rightly been put in its place though as a subjective test. It was used for a long time because it was the easiest test to perform, anyone could do it, and because it gave a pretty good indication. It still does with many folks. It's also fun to do.

Second, because an edge is super sharp doesn't mean it is the best edge. The trick is in the word "best". When edges are super sharp they tend not to stay that way very long. It's a tradeoff or compromise. Double bevels will get you an amazingly sharp edge if you do it right. The edge also won't last very long! There's just not enough steel to support the edge. This is not a problem for many as their goal is a super sharp edge and they don't mind honing and stropping. Others only want to hone when necessary and a great edge is good enough.