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Originally Posted by
AFDavis11
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I think you just don't like the system, and I'm okay with that, and I'm okay with you being argumentative . . . its a forum. Its Lynn's system, not mine. If your being argumentative with anyone; its Lynn, not me.
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I like the pyramid system ok, I just have a different and more efficient way of reaching the goal. So I don't currently use it.
I didn't say I was being argumentative. I said I'm trying not to be. Hence my willingness to test the pyramid method, as opposed to knocking it w/o trying it.
I'm just saying I get faster, and better, edges by not using the pyramid system. Tested, repeatable results.
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Okay, so your impatient and you need to learn how to finish better. :)
I'm not at all impatient. I simply prefer the shorter route to a good shaving edge (for me). The edges I'm getting shave with no pulling and no irritation. "Better" than that isn't needed. Or is it?
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The only way that I know to make the process faster is to do a greater ratio of 4K strokes. That is why there is an aggressive pyramid. You wanna hone fast? Overhone on 4k, then back hone, then overhone on 8K, then backhone, then finish. Waallllaaaaa. Lets call it "Impatient" honing. I'll even take a shot at the numbers . . . 100 passes on 4K, back hone 4 passes, 80 passes on 8K, 4 passes backhoning, then 20 passes on 8k. Done. The only problem is the loss of steel, but its not my razor so what do I care? This system will work for every razor, consistently. Now . . .
I haven't had a wire edge yet with either method. I'd call repeatedly putting 4k striations on an 8k bevel a "waste of time"; and a repeating "waste of steel". This assumes a bevel has already been properly established on a 1 to 4k.
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What is a normal progression? Please comment on what a normal progression is by way of the number of strokes to use to sharpen every razor. I'm not familiar with what you consider normal.
The beauty of a normal progression is having no need to keep track of a table of stroke counts, nor continually flipping back and forth between grits. A normal progression is going to successively finer hones/pastes until you have a shave-worthy edge. Start with a coarser (1200 to 4k grit, your preference) , establish a bevel. When you pass the marker and TNT at the same time, you have a good bevel. Use the next finer grit until you notice a nice change by testing every 5 to 20 strokes (depending on the media of choice). Rinse and repeat for each finer hone. Some will stop at 8k, some will continue on to 0.1 micron (approx) newspaper. Use TPT and "mow hair" test to judge when you are done at each step. My point is: If you have established a bevel, there is no need to establish it again on your coarser, "bevel setting" hone.
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When I hone a razor at some point I have to make an educated guess as to when "I'm done" on the 4k. This requires quite a bit of experience.
We have a big difference of opinion here regarding the primary bevel, as set on a 4k. I think anyone who has reasonable vision, and tactile sensation, can use the marker test and TNT with minimal instruction/practice. Anyone with access to a DE razor blade can quickly learn to use the TPT.
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I haven't been wrong in a few years but, in the first couple of years I would sometimes have to "go back" to the 4K. This "going back" is failure and it is a pyramid. Whether you "go back" once, twice, or three times, its a failure in properly analyzing the edge. If your not going back, even for one stroke on 4K then more power to you. You've arrived, so to speak on the ability to assess a bevel. You've developed an ability to judge what the steel will do on 8k before even getting there and trying it. If you go back, even one stroke, then your just in denial about your ability. But, using any linear progression isn't that hard. Many people do it. But it is experience that helps, particularly in the one question that everyone seems to think they want know. "How many strokes on which stone?"
I don't have the slightest bit of trouble knowing when I have the bevel set. It isn't that hard. Maybe much knife experience helps with that, maybe not. Either way, using marker and the TNT is a definitive test for me. Ain't that hard to do. I definitely agree with you that "Whether you "go back" once, twice, or three times, its a failure in properly analyzing the edge.". I feel sure that almost anyone realizes there is no set number of strokes. The rule here is "sharpen until it is sharp". This is the reason for testing.
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Either way, lets do this. When the next person who buys a razor on ebay and posts a picture of it tell him how many 4K strokes he needs to put on the edge to create a bevel and how many finishing strokes he needs on 8k afterward, and then after he puts them on we'll see how well your technique works. How does that sound? Don't describe pressure, stroke, bevel analysis, steel hardness or type. And ofcourse, you can't use the phrase "if its not cutting well enough just go back to 4K"
Any instruction, progressive or pyramid, will obviously require mention of both "pressure and stroke". Since the "Norton Pyramid Honing Guide" (found on this very site) mentions bevel analysis in it's text (the dreaded TPT), so would I. However; unlike the pyramid system, I could describe the process without using a "table of stroke counts".
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You just whip out the number of strokes he needs to put on the edge to sharpen the blade perfectly and not overhone. Shouldn't be that hard. I don't think I could do it, but again, I'm not familiar with the "normal" process.
If you can do that you'll impress me, but I'll still advocate the pyramid system, because it works, especially for those starting out. I'm already impressed actually. It took me years to learn how to hone all the different types of razors. Where have you been?
And maybe you don't even need a picture . . .
It doesn't take years to learn how to sharpen a razor. It's only complicated if you convince yourself that it is. It takes about the same time as learning to sharpen a knife freehand. When I got back into sharpening razors, after a long hiatus, I made it far more complicated than it really is (even though I really knew better). This was cured by talking to two recognized honemeisters. I'll still advocate the progressive system because it works, and faster, for anyone who can use the marker, TNT, and TPT.
Where have I been? Relative to what? Relative to when?
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. . . btw I've got a razor coming next week I need to hone, how many strokes will it need on each hone?
See my reply above describing normal progression. You'll do fine. In less time, too.