Advice on hones required

I'm new to straights and currently using a Wapi which came shave ready and I also have a small Dovo strop. I plan to get another strop with a canvas back and then use my existing strop with paste. This should take care of my stropping needs.

The advice I need is regarding hone selection. At some point I shall need to hone my Wapi and any future razors I acquire. In preparation of this I have bought a couple of older razors on e-bay with which I can learn the basics of honing. I have done some research and the forums here are great for newbies. On the basis that I shall need to hone razors in my rotation and perhaps a bit more work on any older straights I buy, which of the following would be my best option. For the purposes of this exercise lets ignore cost and focus on the right kit for the job.

Option 1
Norton combination 4000/8000 stone. Appears to be really popular.

Option 2
Norton combination 1000/4000 stone and a belgian yellow coticule. I believe this option would give me more width of honing possibilities, although I'm unclear as to how often the 1000 Norton would be of use.

Any advice, thoughts or comments welcomed.

I'd vote option #2, plus a coticule slurry stone. there's a guy that sells some small cheap ones on ebay, but the extra shipping might outweigh the savings of just buying it with the hone. http://www.theperfectedge.com/belgian.shtml

The coticule is a one stone touch up progression in and of itself. The slurry is about as aggressive as 6-8k, and the plain surface with just water can be up to 10k. So it is all you need to maintain razors.

The 1k/4k would be very versatile for restoring old worn blades, but wouldn't see much use after they are made shave worthy.

Thanks for the info Russell.

I didn't realise the difference the slurry stone makes to the aggressiveness of the coticule. I have already checked out the perfectedge website and they seem to be one of the best for belgians.

So the yellow belgian will keep razors with an edge sharp and then the norton 1k/4k would be used for any heavy duty work on old razors.

+1 on what Russel said. (It's becoming a habit :))

If you go with the coticule, I would buy a DMT-E, instead of that Norton 1000/4000. The coticule is perfectly capable to handle the scratch pattern from a DMT-E. The advantage is that a DMT never needs to be lapped flat, and it can be used for lapping other hones, such a the coticule, that does need very occasional lapping. If I'm not mistaken Theperfectedge caries them too.

Bart.

The Voice from the other side here.

I'd go with the 4000/8000 Norton first. Unless your blade is badly messed up it won't see the 1000 much and if it is badly messed up you can always go with the cheap sandpaper option to get it to where the 4000 can handle it.

There a re a bunch of reasons to have an 8000 grit stone in your arsenal:

Some razors and some guys do really well shaving with the edge right off the 8000 so thats worth a shot. Getting a comfortable shaving edge off the 8000 is a bit of a challenge but it is very possible with good steel and will teach you a lot about honing along the way.

Since there are a million finishing options out there some of which are not suitable for dealing with a 4000 grit edge you will probably end up with something in the 8000 class anyway if you want to try other things, like pasted strops, for finishing down the road.

The 4000/8000 grit pyramid method of honing is well documented and is the easiest way for a guy to learn to hone reliably.

Good luck whatever you decide!!!

Have fun honing:)

I'm not a honing expert, but I tend to agree with Tim here. I have the Belgians and a few other stones. I'm always playing around with them, but I find I get the most consistent results from the Norton 4/8 then finishing with .5 paste (chrome ox).

Either way, I'd say pick your course and master it before being distracted by all the various options you see kicked about here. Once you can get good results on a regular basis, then play with new stones if you want. Just my two cents. :)

Jordan

The 4k/8k is definitely an easier route, not denying that, but I never got a truly comfortable edge off my norton 8k and am not the only one to have such an experience. The coticule, on the other hand, has provided comfortable edges to nearly everyone who has tried it. So it gets my recommendation as it is more likely to give the best edge possible, even if it takes a few extra tries to make it work (though it really isn't much different from the Norton and there is actually a lower chance of overhoning the edge).

A set of Belgian stones and 1k sandpaper would also be a versatile setup that would produce great edges, and cost about as much as the 1k/4k and coticule.

But the choice is yours and the other options work well, too.

edit: The way I look at it, you'll spend $20 per razor to have them honed professionally, so if you want to learn to hone them for your self, you need to be sure that the price you pay for a stone will be favorable as compared to how many razors you'd need to send out. You will, more than likely, save money either way you go.

I have no personal experience with the coticule but I can highly recommend the Norton 4/8. That and Lynn's video got me on the right track for honing my own. I like the feedback I get from them. Correct me if I am wrong but with the Norton being a man made stone I'm assuming they may be more consistent then a natural stone.

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Originally Posted by Slant-Fan

I have no personal experience with the coticule but I can highly recommend the Norton 4/8. That and Lynn's video got me on the right track for honing my own. I like the feedback I get from them. Correct me if I am wrong but with the Norton being a man made stone I'm assuming they may be more consistent then a natural stone.

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Any natural stone will vary in performance slightly from one to the next, but you would have to seek out a truly inconsistent piece of Coticule.

Especially if you buy one form Howard at theperfectedge.com, he personally inspects them prior to shipment.

That said, I have 5 different sizes and shapes of coticule that all came from different places (most looked like junk from being misused or neglected for decades), the coarsest specimen is finer than the Norton 8k and none are detectably inconsistent.

Looks like the jury is out on Norton vs Belgian. It seems both types have keen followers, and there is plenty of posts on the forums about using the 4k/8k setup. I shall do a bit more reading around the subject.

The yellow belgian with water could be as fine as 10k, if going down the Norton route what would you use after the 8K stone, pasted strop??

Bart,

What grit grade of DMT were you suggesting to compliment the coticule?

Smalleyboy

First of all: I'm no expert when it comes to razor honing.

I started out with a Norton 4K/8K and a Spyderco UF as a finisher, and the got a DMT1200 for setting the bevel, got interested in natural stones and got a coticule and a slurry stone from Howard.

Lately I've been playing with just the DMT and the coticule, and it works well, it takes a little longer to get the razor sharp, but I find the honing process more enjoyable with the feedback of the coticule vs the Norton, so for me it seems like the Norton is on it's way out, and I've found I don't need another finisher after the coticule, yet, even though I kind of want another stone.

There is one thing though, since I started honing razors on the Norton, I learned the basics on it, and the pyramid is very valuable when it comes to learning to hone imho, if you decide to go down the coticule road, you should be aware that you'll have to invest a bit more time in learning to hone than you might have to with the Norton, but if you want a setup with the biggest width of honing possibility, and are willing to take the time to learn, I'd take the coticule route, with either the DMT1200 or the Norton 1K/4K as a first stone.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the informative response.

I take it that you use a yellow coticule for maintaining your razors but would drop down to the DMT1200 for setting the bevel if required. Do you have a blue coticule as an intermediary step to the yellow or would you move from the DMT1200 straight up to the yellow coticule?

I don't know why but I am leaning towards the natural stone route, although I am aware that it will take more time to learn and is the less popular route.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smalleyboy

Thanks for the informative response.

I take it that you use a yellow coticule for maintaining your razors but would drop down to the DMT1200 for setting the bevel if required. Do you have a blue coticule as an intermediary step to the yellow or would you move from the DMT1200 straight up to the yellow coticule?

I don't know why but I am leaning towards the natural stone route, although I am aware that it will take more time to learn and is the less popular route.

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It's correct that I only drop down to the 1200 when needed, and I rely on the yellow with a heavy slurry to do the honing before I use onley water for the polishing stage. I guess a blue after the 1200 would speed up the process, but since I never used one, I won't claim anything. I think I recall reading something about some of the members here, (poona(?) and welshwarrior(?)) who I think is located in Northern Ireland, switching to a Belgian Blue and a coticule, maybe you could send them a PM regarding the blue.

Why the natrual stones?
To me it's all about the feeling I get from the stones, it just feels more right to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smalleyboy

Looks like the jury is out on Norton vs Belgian. It seems both types have keen followers, and there is plenty of posts on the forums about using the 4k/8k setup. I shall do a bit more reading around the subject.

The yellow belgian with water could be as fine as 10k, if going down the Norton route what would you use after the 8K stone, pasted strop??

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Yes, I like the .5 Micron paste after the Norton 8K. I use chromium oxide myself, but you can also get the .5 diamond paste. .25 diamond paste gives a nice edge too.

Jordan

Thanks to all for the advice offered and information provided.
It is great to find a forum where everyone takes the time to help those with less knowledge and experience.:tu

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

I'd vote option #2, plus a coticule slurry stone. there's a guy that sells some small cheap ones on ebay, but the extra shipping might outweigh the savings of just buying it with the hone. http://www.theperfectedge.com/belgian.shtml

The coticule is a one stone touch up progression in and of itself. The slurry is about as aggressive as 6-8k, and the plain surface with just water can be up to 10k. So it is all you need to maintain razors.

The 1k/4k would be very versatile for restoring old worn blades, but wouldn't see much use after they are made shave worthy.

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If a yellow coticule is 6-10k based on slurry v. water, what is the range of the blue coticule?

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Originally Posted by loueedacat

If a yellow coticule is 6-10k based on slurry v. water, what is the range of the blue coticule?

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This is something that I have not for the life of me been able to figure out. I know a number of guys here get good results with the Blue in place of the Norton 4K, but I cannot seem to get benefit from it. It seems to be as fine as my 8K or Yellow - and slooow. :shrug: I'm frustrated with it. :confused:

Jordan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jnich67

This is something that I have not for the life of me been able to figure out. I know a number of guys here get good results with the Blue in place of the Norton 4K, but I cannot seem to get benefit from it. It seems to be as fine as my 8K or Yellow - and slooow. :shrug: I'm frustrated with it. :confused:

Jordan

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With a slurry going?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littlesilverbladefromwale

With a slurry going?

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Yup, I even bought the Blue slurry stone from Chrisl.

Jordan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jnich67

This is something that I have not for the life of me been able to figure out. I know a number of guys here get good results with the Blue in place of the Norton 4K, but I cannot seem to get benefit from it. It seems to be as fine as my 8K or Yellow - and slooow. :shrug: I'm frustrated with it. :confused:

Jordan

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I'm glad you said that because that is why I asked. There does seem to be an absence of hype about the blue coticule compared to the yellow coticule, and absence of hype on these boards always seems more damning than criticism becasue if someone is getting good results from something we all hear about it.

So are people getting 4k like results from a blue coticule?

The blue is technically 4k like the Norton 4k, but the similarity stops there. And I'll add that the frustration begins there as well, if you treat the blue like a Norton 4k substitute.

The blue will not – at least not if you don't have the patience of Job – cut a bevel for you. Nor is it efficient at removing chips, unless you're talking tiny microchips.

What it will do is make short work of the scratch patterns left from DMTs, and if you've got a good bevel it'll keen up the edge to the point of popping hairs, and the coticule or similar will take it from there.

Those who use it for these purposes usually find it to be a very nice hone and a useful one. But a Norton 4k it ain't.

Hone width??

3" wide is more expensive, but allows you to hone the full edge of the razor without the X movement.

2" wide better allows you to hone blades that don't set evenly. Is there also a risk of the central area of the edge wearing more quickly as it will be in contact with the hone more than the heel or toe?

Does the price of hones dictate more people choose 2" wide hones?

I have used the blue stone on razors, as a mediator between the DMT 1200 and the coticule, but I have moved away from that practice. I now use a DMT 1200 for bevel-settting (if neeed), a coticule with slurry as a go-between and the same coticule with water to finish. It's faster and very consistent for superb results.
I use my blue stones quite a lot... in my woodshop. The blue excels in smoothing out the scratch pattern from coarser stones. I often jump from a DMT 600 right to the blue. (for chisels and plane bades) It's actually quite fast in polishing that 600 grit scratch pattern. But as soon as it has eaten the scratches it stops doing much of anything. I have an unconfirmed theory about that. I think that as soon as the granates, that do the cutting action, stop being caught by the previous scratch pattern, they just start rolling like microscopical billard balls between the stones surface and the metal. That's just a hunge, of course.
Anyway, as much as I like the blue, I don't really see the advantage of it, if you already have a coticule, which is absolutely faster and finer.

Never, ever think of the blue as of a Norton 4000, even though they are often rated the same grit.
I think of it as a great and cost-effective replacement for a coticule, as long as you only need a polishing hone.
One of the big things I like about the DMT - Belgians approach, is that none of those hones needs to be soaked in water. You can keep them nice and dry in a drawer, put on a little splah of water and start honing right away.

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Originally Posted by Smalleyboy

Hone width??

3" wide is more expensive, but allows you to hone the full edge of the razor without the X movement.

2" wide better allows you to hone blades that don't set evenly. Is there also a risk of the central area of the edge wearing more quickly as it will be in contact with the hone more than the heel or toe?

Does the price of hones dictate more people choose 2" wide hones?

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I'm sorry if I've sidetracked your thread.

Many prefer the 3" stone (the popularity of the Norton may be a major factor in this). I prefer 2" myself - my OCD-ishness has trouble dealing with the fact that the toe is on the hone more than the heel with the 3 inchers. I think width is more a preference thing.

Jordan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smalleyboy

Hone width??

3" wide is more expensive, but allows you to hone the full edge of the razor without the X movement.

2" wide better allows you to hone blades that don't set evenly. Is there also a risk of the central area of the edge wearing more quickly as it will be in contact with the hone more than the heel or toe?

Does the price of hones dictate more people choose 2" wide hones?

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In reference to your earlier question I finish with a barbers hone (swaty brand) most often after the 8000 grit but I have also tried a pasted paddle. Some use the Chinese 12000 grit for this and other guys use shapton really fine hones, or the spyderco UF some even go for the Belgian Yellow as a fine finisher after the 8000 Norton just to throw another monkey wrench out there.


As far as hone width, it doesn't really matter you should use the x pattern anyway. So feel free to save a few bucks. Of course this is whole nother kettle of fish.

If you want to get things done fast, or want to hone a lot of razors, then the Norton 4/8K plus a finishing stone is what you need.
I you don't mind expending the extra time, then all you need is a yellow coticule and a slurry stone

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Originally Posted by Navaja

I you don't mind expending the extra time, then all you need is a yellow coticule and a slurry stone

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ME! I hope? :D:D:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smalleyboy

Hone width??

3" wide is more expensive, but allows you to hone the full edge of the razor without the X movement.

2" wide better allows you to hone blades that don't set evenly. Is there also a risk of the central area of the edge wearing more quickly as it will be in contact with the hone more than the heel or toe?

Does the price of hones dictate more people choose 2" wide hones?

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This is something that I would like some feedback on too, as I am also new to this game.
I have a 2" 1000grit waterstone and a 2.5" 6000grit waterstone, both Japanese. With a slightly smiling blade I have no issues, as a rolling X-pattern hits the same spots on both stones.
On a straight blade however, the middle portion definitely seems to get more action on the 2" with an X-pattern. When I move to the 2.5" I hone the blade on an angle (so the entire length is on the hone for the entire stroke) and it seems to polish both ends first, and takes heavy slurry to get the polising to the middle of the blade. Is this standard, or something that you can mitigate with advanced trickery or experience?

On the main topic of this thread, I would like to emphasize how much difference slurry has made on my 6K stone. This has been the single most important piece of honing advise I have received so far. A heavy slurry cuts so fast, that nicks in the edge that are just visible to the naked eye can be removed relatively quickly. With just water, it is slow cutting, but doesn't get to a mirror finish under magnification (48x for the detail orientated amongst you!!!).
As it sounds like the belgian yellow can be used in the same way but at the finishing stage, I am thniking that this could be an excellent option for me.

Hope this is useful.

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Originally Posted by Gluegun

This is something that I would like some feedback on too, as I am also new to this game.
I have a 2" 1000grit waterstone and a 2.5" 6000grit waterstone, both Japanese. With a slightly smiling blade I have no issues, as a rolling X-pattern hits the same spots on both stones.
On a straight blade however, the middle portion definitely seems to get more action on the 2" with an X-pattern. When I move to the 2.5" I hone the blade on an angle (so the entire length is on the hone for the entire stroke) and it seems to polish both ends first, and takes heavy slurry to get the polising to the middle of the blade. Is this standard, or something that you can mitigate with advanced trickery or experience?

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Here's my hunch:
It could be possible that you 're honing an ever so slight (as good as invisible) frown in that straight blade, while honing on the 1000 grit stone. Then you use a different technique on your polishing stone, and the middle can't be polished until you've removed that hint of a frown. Does that make any sense to you?
Try very light and even pressure with your X-stroke, and pay very careful attention not to drop the angle when the heel leaves the stone.
You could do X's on the polisher as well. I think that would clear up the problem too, but if I'm right with assuming there you stroke is a little off, then you straight edges might develop frowns over the years of honing them.

Good luck,

Bart.

Hey, thanks Bart,
You could well be right.
If the heel drops, even slightly, on the 1000K with an x-pattern then I would get a frown. As a newbie I am guessing that I would probably lift and drop slightly on the stroke, and this could be exactly what I am seeing.
I am wondered though, even you take perfectly balanced stokes, would you get a frown with the x-pattern on a hone that does not cover the entire blade? Just from the center of the blade always being on the hone, and the heal not?
As I haven't heard much about this, I think it could be one of those things that works itself out with a bit more experience. I hope so.
Cheers,
Andrew

You could try doing a minimalistic version of the "rolling X-stroke" if you're worried about honing the tip and the middle too much in comparison with the heel. You can also start out your stroke with the blade put diagonally on the hone, so that it takes a bit longer for the heel to leave the stone.
Heavydutysg135 made a great video series about honing.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showthread.php?t=21876
In part 8 and 9 he addresses your issues.
I think establishing a good even stroke is an important factor in successful honing. It's a good thing to worry about avoiding the development of bad habits, that once embedded in muscle memory, can be hard to unlearn. I had something like that going on in my stropping practice. Took me more time to get rid off, than it took me learning it wrong. It's actually great to see in those videos how Heavyduty's stroke has so obviously become second nature to him. But I'm sure he did his share of worrying when he started out.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Funny you should say so, but the slight rolling X was exactly what I was thinking. I figure it is better to have a slight curve at the toe than a frowning blade.
I normally use a slight diagonal approach on the hone (30 degrees from square) and have experimented with putting the blade at a steeper angle on the hone, but at the higher angles I worry about the spine wearing unevenly and changing the honing angles on subsequent hones. It feels like if you start down this road you need to carry this through to all other hones and strops. That, for me, is an added complexity I would rather avoid. I could be wrong. It has happened before...once!
Thanks for the tips on the video's. I will check them out as soon as I can.
Cheers,
AP

I just wanted to thank again everyone for their advise.

I have just ordered a DMT, yellow and blue belgians from Howard at the perfectedge. I wasn't really in the market for a blue belgian but with the shipping charges to the UK, it made sense to get one at the same time.

The razors I bought on e-bay have arrived, so once my stones are delivered I shall be able to start having a go at honing which will no doubt lead to a few more hours watching youtube and posting here.

Thanks to all.

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Originally Posted by Smalleyboy

I just wanted to thank again everyone for their advise.

I have just ordered a DMT, yellow and blue belgians from Howard at the perfectedge. I wasn't really in the market for a blue belgian but with the shipping charges to the UK, it made sense to get one at the same time.

The razors I bought on e-bay have arrived, so once my stones are delivered I shall be able to start having a go at honing which will no doubt lead to a few more hours watching youtube and posting here.

Thanks to all.

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Out of curiosity how much did it cost you in total including delivery?

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Originally Posted by bjorn

It's correct that I only drop down to the 1200 when needed, and I rely on the yellow with a heavy slurry to do the honing before I use onley water for the polishing stage. I guess a blue after the 1200 would speed up the process, but since I never used one, I won't claim anything. I think I recall reading something about some of the members here, (poona(?) and welshwarrior(?)) who I think is located in Northern Ireland, switching to a Belgian Blue and a coticule, maybe you could send them a PM regarding the blue.

Why the natrual stones?
To me it's all about the feeling I get from the stones, it just feels more right to me.

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Tis true, I am from NI indeed.

Coticule for me every time.

Ashmanq,

Have a look at the website www.theperfectedge.com for prices. Half the US$ price to crudely convert to UK£ and then add UK£20 for shipping. According to Howard at perfect edge, the first 0.5kg of shipping is the most expensive.

The exchange rate is good for those of us in the UK. I have just ordered a strop from Tony Miller and even with shipping, it works out cheaper than sourcing a Dovo strop in the UK. Based upon glowing reviews of Tony's strops on this forum, it would suggest they are much better quality than Dovo.

Warning: although buying from the US looks like a good deal, be aware that Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs will levy VAT on your purchases and this is collected by your postie. I believe anyone exporting goods out of the US has to state the value and type of goods on a label on front of the package. HMRC and the post office, due to the large quantities of parcels, don't always collect the VAT. I shall have to wait and see what happens.

Thanks for the info Smalleyboy I too have ordered a strop (Apprentice) from Tony Miller after reading good reviews of his products. Hoping I wont be hit by customs but VAT on it shouldnt be that much. Ill defo take a look at the perfect edge for honing products since taking into account the exchange rate aswell as vat it is probably still cheaper to buy from abroad!

Ashmanq

Ashmanq

I did a bit of searching on-line and there are several places in the UK sell Norton hones, but I couldn't find anyone in the UK selling belgian blues or yellow coticules. There may well be, but my brief search didn't reveal any.

Nick

Just got a coticule from Rob at Ardennes Coticules/ blues. Google it you'll find them.
You get a free rubbing/milk stone with it, but don't forget to get the box with it, it is extra but very cheap and nicely made.
I finished of the blade of my Swiss Army knife at work (on the rubbing stone), It is now very sharp!!
Took 2 days to get to me and the stone is very nice, I got a selected stone which is picked to be plain, or so I've read (The Rabbis like them that way), but get a standard as there are inclusions in them and they look pretty!