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Has anyone ever had better results keeping their honing to a lower level of polish?

I've had two different razors proffesionally honed on separate occasions and upon arrival I could see remnants of what I assume was chrome oxide paste, so these suckers should be pretty smooth!

Then I go to shave with them and they do nothing but pull.

I find that I get the best shaves with a razor coming off an 8000 grit stone. If I take the razor to a coticule or escher, it starts to pull

this mirrors my results with a chrome oxide pasted paddle. cuts smooth off the 8000 but pulls off the chrome oxide

I have an extremely coarse beard and I've never had an effortless shave in my life. DE and even a mach3 pull to some extent. BBS is not and will probavly never be an option for my face

i think that maybe the finish left by the 8000 grit is a little "toothier" which might explain why it cuts better?

That is a truism for knives. A blade coming off a 'toothier' hone will perform some of the 'work' functions better than a polished edge.

Never tried it on a razor. Since I also have a tough beard, I may have to try it once.

Yea, that is my experience exactly. Keeping to the 8k and adjusting the amount of polish you apply is a great technique for those of us with really thick beards, the hard wire type.

Creating an ultra thin bevel from pastes just makes the edge too thin.

But learning to strop effectively can help create the smoothness you might also want to ensure comfort.

i've never really played around with barber hones, but i think i may try my luck with some as i think they might give the level of polish i'm looking for

Eric,
Are you going straight from the 8k to your face or are you stropping a bit between the hone and your face? If you are stropping, how many laps?

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Originally Posted by edk442

I find that I get the best shaves with a razor coming off an 8000 grit stone...i think that maybe the finish left by the 8000 grit is a little "toothier" which might explain why it cuts better?

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There seem to be two opposite theories among those with super-wiry beards:

1. a lower level of polish is preferable, both because the edge will last longer and because it's 'toothiness' is an advantage against thick stubble
2. go for the keenest edge possible (pastes, shaptons, or nakayamas), because only a verrrry sharp edge will go through that wire bristle without deflecting into the skin, making for a rough shave, razor burn, and even reduced edge retention

At the extreme end of theory #1, Bruno (I think) once stopped after a DMT 600 (!) and got a smooth shave. At the extreme of theory #2, Karkarta says that – contrary to popular belief – a Feather-like edge lasts longer because it cuts cleanly & with no deflection.

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Originally Posted by edk442

If I take the razor to a coticule or escher, it starts to pull

this mirrors my results with a chrome oxide pasted paddle. cuts smooth off the 8000 but pulls off the chrome oxide

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I can't help but wonder if your paddle is pasted too thick, and if you might be using too much slurry on those natural finishers. This would explain the pulling. Thick slurry and thick paste dull edges like nobody's business, and it doesn't take much to count as 'thick' – especially with the chrome oxide.

The fact that you saw 'remnants' of chrome oxide on one of your edges strongly suggests too much chrome oxide. This should be a ghostly green on leather at most, and you certainly shouldn't be seeing any of it on your edges.

If the coticule/escher edges were too fine for your beard, you'd get at least a half-face's worth of smooth shaving before the pulling began. Even that's hard to picture; a .25µ edge is one thing, but a coticule edge shouldn't be that weak. At any rate, if it's pulling right away, I think it must be dulled by too much slurry...

Just my 2¢

Well, there's a billion dollar question.
I have been wondering about the sake of "toothiness" against high-polish super-keen edges for quite some time now.
Haven't been able to come up with even the beginning of an answer.

I have ordered 8 "Double Arrow" razors from Stamps222. They're tremendously cheap, but qualified by various SRP-members as very consistent steel quality razors, yet poorly finished (poor scales, sharp corners at the tang, misaligned pins). I plan on using them for a series of double blind experiments, and the toothiness dilemma is high on the list of tests. The razors will be randomized in 2 groups of 4. I will hone one group with 4 different honing recipes, and my straight shaving comrade will hone the other group with the same honing recipes. At that point, we will exchange the razors, and test shave without knowing what razor received what treatment. We will use 2 razors during each shave, for comparison and each razor will be used multiple times, to include the response of a certain type of edge to stropping. About every two weeks, when each razor performed 3 times, we 'll compare notes and device another series of experiments. There will always be one razor in each group honed with Heavydutysg135's paradigm, because that's the type of edge we've been shaving with for quite some time now, and the results of that honing paradigm turned out to be very repeatable and consistent.

I've publicly asked for an experiment on the Shapton line of hones, that might shine some light on this matter, but so far no one of the Shapton owners has been able, or willing, to do the experiment and post his findings. http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ething-me.html

I agree with Dylandog that using slurry on natural stones and too thickly pasted strops, are prone to falsify the answer on your question, because it is easy to, however polish the edge, also dull it at the same time. For that reason, natural hones should be used with only water, when polishing an edge coming from 4K or 8K.

Bart.

I have a nightmare steel-eating beard from hell, and I've tried it both ways. I can do a good job right off my Gem hone (I can even do a decent job right off my cushioned strop hone) but it's not as comfortable a shave as I can get with the chrome oxide, and I'm more prone to nicking myself with that toothy, triangular bevel.

If I shave right off the Lithide hone, the edge seems too fragile, but the chrome oxide actually seems to fix that by convexing the edge as it polishes. Of course the down side is, by the end of the month I've got some work to do with the hone to restore the bevel to flat, because by then it has become badly rounded.

All in all, I have decided to keep the pasted strop because I like the smooth, silky shave that I get from a polished & convexed edge, and for me it's all about having the perfect shave. Shaving right off the hone is too rough for my liking.

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Originally Posted by davisbonanza

Eric,
Are you going straight from the 8k to your face or are you stropping a bit between the hone and your face? If you are stropping, how many laps?

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i do about 40 laps on plain leather

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Originally Posted by dylandog

I can't help but wonder if your paddle is pasted too thick, and if you might be using too much slurry on those natural finishers. This would explain the pulling. Thick slurry and thick paste dull edges like nobody's business, and it doesn't take much to count as 'thick' – especially with the chrome oxide.

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when i used my paddles i believe one was overpasted. i have since tried again with a properly pasted paddle and the results showed no improvement. i used my coticules/eschers sans-slurry, so i can eliminate that factor. it could be my technique, but i can hone well with any other stone...

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Originally Posted by dylandog

The fact that you saw 'remnants' of chrome oxide on one of your edges strongly suggests too much chrome oxide. This should be a ghostly green on leather at most, and you certainly shouldn't be seeing any of it on your edges.

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I'm thinking that perhaps the blades were giving a few quick passes before being sent out? I thought it strange that the blades would have residue, but I'm not about to question the skill/method of one very respected member here

Tell you what I will do....I just received 10 of the Chinese Double arrows and I will hone one up for you and stop at approx 6k off a Tam O'Shanter hone then send it to you for shave testing. Just send me a PM with your name and mailing address

or...

you can send me your razor and I will use that instead. No charge.

I want to know what works for really tough, thick beards.

My address is
Randy Tuttle
1027 Desoto St.
St. Paul, MN 55130

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Originally Posted by edk442

Has anyone ever had better results keeping their honing to a lower level of polish?
...

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Same situation here. I've tried 0.5 chrome oxide and that edge just doesn't last long enough for me.

I finish up with a barber hone (probably 9 or 10k), often followed up with 50 to 150 laps on newspaper. The newspaper seems to smooth the edge without making it any less durable, even though it is often rated at 0.1 micron or so.

Thanks for this thread!

I just got a nice W&B eblade yesterday. Last night I tested the edge with a marker, ran it over the D8EE a few times, employing the rolling X for the first time (or whatever it is properly called. This is my first blade with a smile). When the edge looked good I did six laps on the 12K and took it to the leather. All other razors I have used before have got at least 2 or 3 times that much 12K plus a nice helping of CrO before stropping. They always pass HHT but ...

I have tough whiskers and today's shave was one of the smoothest I have ever had. I'm going to give this low level polish theory a very thorough testing over the next few weeks.

Cheers

I believe I'll take Randy up on his offer and see what results I get with a Tam finsihed razor. Should be interesting

Did Randy forget to tell you he was working as an advertising agent for Coully?:roflmao:roflmao:w

Actually I've been interested in this too as the edges reportedly possible off the Tam are at odd with its grit size.

You might want to talk to MParker as well and see if he'll let you try an Arkansas edge. Those might lead to an interesting theory as well.

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Originally Posted by Sticky

Same situation here. I've tried 0.5 chrome oxide and that edge just doesn't last long enough for me.

I finish up with a barber hone (probably 9 or 10k), often followed up with 50 to 150 laps on newspaper. The newspaper seems to smooth the edge without making it any less durable, even though it is often rated at 0.1 micron or so.

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I think that newspaper ink is the DIY version of Teflon coating. I operate a newsprinting press every Tuesday night, so I have some idea of what newspaper ink is and how it behaves. It's a very tough semi-liquid substance, that never dries on the rubber ink rolls and the ink feeders, it doesn't even really ever dries on newspaper. But it does build up in gumlike layers rapidly on all kinds of metal parts, basically because it is designed to do that on paper.
When smoothening scratches, one can even out the peaks, but one can also fill up the gaps.
My guess is stropping on newspaper might be just doing that.

Bart.

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Originally Posted by edk442

Has anyone ever had better results keeping their honing to a lower level of polish?

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Not me. In fact, I have yet to be able to even get a shave from a Norton 8,000 grit hone. It yanks on my hair. Others can, and I'm happy for them :) Maybe someday I will be able to

I just have to be a dissident here. In my experience the finer the hone the closer and more comfortable the shave. After the Thuringen or Escher I take the razor to the Nakayama and get a very smooth shave. My beard is medium hard. I can ge ta razort to shave off the 5K Shapton but not very comfy.

Neverforget:a good prep is essential. With nice and creamy not too watery lather the shave is much better.

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Originally Posted by Bart

I think that newspaper ink is the DIY version of Teflon coating. I operate a newsprinting press every Tuesday night, so I have some idea of what newspaper ink is and how it behaves.
...
When smoothening scratches, one can even out the peaks, but one can also fill up the gaps.
My guess is stropping on newspaper might be just doing that.

Bart.

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Wouldn't the ink be removed by my normal alcohol routine after honing and shaving (or even normal stropping)? Acetone and alcohol are often used as diluting agents for many types of ink. If the ink never really drys on the paper then it shouldn't dry on the razor either? I'm hoping the alcohol/mineral or camellia oil/stropping combination get all the ink off before I get to the shave.

Interesting observation and I never thought much about it. Ink remaining on the razor sounds sorta' icky...

EDIT: Never mind. A little research and I came up with the following info:

• Carbon black is the standard ink used for newspapers. Carbon black is comprised of carbon black, oil, miscellaneous ingredients for anti-misting and low-rub, and paraffin distillates for quick dry.
• Ingestion of inks used on newsprint has not been an issue because the ingredients used in the inks are not considered toxic in either the liquid or dry state.
• Reference: Ohio State University Fact Sheet

Even if the ink remains on the edge, it shouldn't be a risk.

Different strokes ...

Personally I like to polish that 8k edge very gently beyond that to get the sharpest edge I can. Sure it doesn't last as long as most guys' edges, but I have a fine beard and like to get as close a finish as I can, but I want to stress that what I do after the 8k is just a little gentle coaxing.

If the 4k leaves this size tooth/scratch pattern edge: ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
and the 8k leaves this type of finish: A A A A A A A A A A
and the chrome oxide leaves this level of polish: ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
I'm shooting for this: A'A'^'A'A'^'A'A'^'A'A

It may not work that way in actual fact, but imagining it this way helps me get a great shaving edge.

X

I am one of those with a coarse beard, especially on the jaw line and neck, and can barely stand to shave with an edge finished on anything less than a Coticule. I don't particularly like pastes either.

For me, nothing beats the Nakayama.

Maybe this has more to do with skin type rather then beard coarseness. I mean, it's the follicles in the skin that feels the cutting action of the blade, not the hair itself (obviously).

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

I am one of those with a coarse beard, especially on the jaw line and neck, and can barely stand to shave with an edge finished on anything less than a Coticule. I don't particularly like pastes either.

For me, nothing beats the Nakayama.

Maybe this has more to do with skin type rather then beard coarseness. I mean, it's the follicles in the skin that feels the cutting action of the blade, not the hair itself (obviously).

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It could be that most straight shavers haven't had the opportunity to shave with a blade sharpened on the nakayama. I know I'd like to at some point :) I would guess though that a course beard would resist the blade more than a silky thin beard would, in turn causing the attaching skin to come into harsher contact with the blade

It's basically a natural stone that leaves an edge like CrO paste does, only somehow different, hard to describe. Though, I am also kind of a natural-stone-aholic, so I can't rule out the placebo affect in my judgment.;)

It's like vintage steel versus modern steel; I swear I can feel the difference, but chemical compositions are nearly identical and under the microscope there is no apparent difference.:shrug:

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

It's basically a natural stone that leaves an edge like CrO paste does, only somehow different, hard to describe. Though, I am also kind of a natural-stone-aholic, so I can't rule out the placebo affect in my judgment.;)

It's like vintage steel versus modern steel; I swear I can feel the difference, but chemical compositions are nearly identical and under the microscope there is no apparent difference.:shrug:

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You seem like a good candidate for a blind test! A no-frills modern blade with all markings taped against a no-frills vintage with all markings taped. Both blades already sharpened to 8,000 grit, and see if you can identify which is which

Maybe age gives it a different feel as you say ?