Thread: less is more

Has anyone ever had better results keeping their honing to a lower level of polish?

I've had two different razors proffesionally honed on separate occasions and upon arrival I could see remnants of what I assume was chrome oxide paste, so these suckers should be pretty smooth!

Then I go to shave with them and they do nothing but pull.

I find that I get the best shaves with a razor coming off an 8000 grit stone. If I take the razor to a coticule or escher, it starts to pull

this mirrors my results with a chrome oxide pasted paddle. cuts smooth off the 8000 but pulls off the chrome oxide

I have an extremely coarse beard and I've never had an effortless shave in my life. DE and even a mach3 pull to some extent. BBS is not and will probavly never be an option for my face

i think that maybe the finish left by the 8000 grit is a little "toothier" which might explain why it cuts better?

That is a truism for knives. A blade coming off a 'toothier' hone will perform some of the 'work' functions better than a polished edge.

Never tried it on a razor. Since I also have a tough beard, I may have to try it once.

Yea, that is my experience exactly. Keeping to the 8k and adjusting the amount of polish you apply is a great technique for those of us with really thick beards, the hard wire type.

Creating an ultra thin bevel from pastes just makes the edge too thin.

But learning to strop effectively can help create the smoothness you might also want to ensure comfort.

i've never really played around with barber hones, but i think i may try my luck with some as i think they might give the level of polish i'm looking for

Eric,
Are you going straight from the 8k to your face or are you stropping a bit between the hone and your face? If you are stropping, how many laps?

Originally Posted by edk442

I find that I get the best shaves with a razor coming off an 8000 grit stone...i think that maybe the finish left by the 8000 grit is a little "toothier" which might explain why it cuts better?

There seem to be two opposite theories among those with super-wiry beards:

1. a lower level of polish is preferable, both because the edge will last longer and because it's 'toothiness' is an advantage against thick stubble
2. go for the keenest edge possible (pastes, shaptons, or nakayamas), because only a verrrry sharp edge will go through that wire bristle without deflecting into the skin, making for a rough shave, razor burn, and even reduced edge retention

At the extreme end of theory #1, Bruno (I think) once stopped after a DMT 600 (!) and got a smooth shave. At the extreme of theory #2, Karkarta says that – contrary to popular belief – a Feather-like edge lasts longer because it cuts cleanly & with no deflection.

Originally Posted by edk442

If I take the razor to a coticule or escher, it starts to pull

this mirrors my results with a chrome oxide pasted paddle. cuts smooth off the 8000 but pulls off the chrome oxide

I can't help but wonder if your paddle is pasted too thick, and if you might be using too much slurry on those natural finishers. This would explain the pulling. Thick slurry and thick paste dull edges like nobody's business, and it doesn't take much to count as 'thick' – especially with the chrome oxide.

The fact that you saw 'remnants' of chrome oxide on one of your edges strongly suggests too much chrome oxide. This should be a ghostly green on leather at most, and you certainly shouldn't be seeing any of it on your edges.

If the coticule/escher edges were too fine for your beard, you'd get at least a half-face's worth of smooth shaving before the pulling began. Even that's hard to picture; a .25µ edge is one thing, but a coticule edge shouldn't be that weak. At any rate, if it's pulling right away, I think it must be dulled by too much slurry...

Just my 2¢

Well, there's a billion dollar question.
I have been wondering about the sake of "toothiness" against high-polish super-keen edges for quite some time now.
Haven't been able to come up with even the beginning of an answer.

I have ordered 8 "Double Arrow" razors from Stamps222. They're tremendously cheap, but qualified by various SRP-members as very consistent steel quality razors, yet poorly finished (poor scales, sharp corners at the tang, misaligned pins). I plan on using them for a series of double blind experiments, and the toothiness dilemma is high on the list of tests. The razors will be randomized in 2 groups of 4. I will hone one group with 4 different honing recipes, and my straight shaving comrade will hone the other group with the same honing recipes. At that point, we will exchange the razors, and test shave without knowing what razor received what treatment. We will use 2 razors during each shave, for comparison and each razor will be used multiple times, to include the response of a certain type of edge to stropping. About every two weeks, when each razor performed 3 times, we 'll compare notes and device another series of experiments. There will always be one razor in each group honed with Heavydutysg135's paradigm, because that's the type of edge we've been shaving with for quite some time now, and the results of that honing paradigm turned out to be very repeatable and consistent.

I've publicly asked for an experiment on the Shapton line of hones, that might shine some light on this matter, but so far no one of the Shapton owners has been able, or willing, to do the experiment and post his findings. http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ething-me.html

I agree with Dylandog that using slurry on natural stones and too thickly pasted strops, are prone to falsify the answer on your question, because it is easy to, however polish the edge, also dull it at the same time. For that reason, natural hones should be used with only water, when polishing an edge coming from 4K or 8K.

Bart.

I have a nightmare steel-eating beard from hell, and I've tried it both ways. I can do a good job right off my Gem hone (I can even do a decent job right off my cushioned strop hone) but it's not as comfortable a shave as I can get with the chrome oxide, and I'm more prone to nicking myself with that toothy, triangular bevel.

If I shave right off the Lithide hone, the edge seems too fragile, but the chrome oxide actually seems to fix that by convexing the edge as it polishes. Of course the down side is, by the end of the month I've got some work to do with the hone to restore the bevel to flat, because by then it has become badly rounded.

All in all, I have decided to keep the pasted strop because I like the smooth, silky shave that I get from a polished & convexed edge, and for me it's all about having the perfect shave. Shaving right off the hone is too rough for my liking.

Originally Posted by davisbonanza

Eric,
Are you going straight from the 8k to your face or are you stropping a bit between the hone and your face? If you are stropping, how many laps?

i do about 40 laps on plain leather

Originally Posted by dylandog

I can't help but wonder if your paddle is pasted too thick, and if you might be using too much slurry on those natural finishers. This would explain the pulling. Thick slurry and thick paste dull edges like nobody's business, and it doesn't take much to count as 'thick' – especially with the chrome oxide.

when i used my paddles i believe one was overpasted. i have since tried again with a properly pasted paddle and the results showed no improvement. i used my coticules/eschers sans-slurry, so i can eliminate that factor. it could be my technique, but i can hone well with any other stone...

Originally Posted by dylandog

The fact that you saw 'remnants' of chrome oxide on one of your edges strongly suggests too much chrome oxide. This should be a ghostly green on leather at most, and you certainly shouldn't be seeing any of it on your edges.

I'm thinking that perhaps the blades were giving a few quick passes before being sent out? I thought it strange that the blades would have residue, but I'm not about to question the skill/method of one very respected member here