first time honing + questions

Hi everybody,

Last evening, I decided to try honing. I was a little anxious about it and was trying to postpone it a bit until more comfortable with the stropping (one new thing to learn at a time). So, as my stropping is now quite good, I went in for honing.

First I lapped my Norton 4/8 and my coticule with a DMT 325. Following advices found on SRP. That was a piece of cake.

Then, I took a razor I bought on ebay (a Royal Crown), cleaned it with Maass (the razor was altogether in a good shape, besides little dark spots - maybe watermarks). The blade wasn't sharp at all. So I decided to get on with the hone. Here is the story:

- a conservative pyramid = the razor was not sharp (just to give it a try but without hope that it will do the trick)
- an aggressive pyramid = the razor was still not sharp, at all
- 15 / 15 = still not sharp but I can feel that something is happening to the edge
- 15 / 15 = not really improving; the razor is still not capable of cutting hair out of my knee
- 75 on the 8K only = oh... I can feel with my thumb that I am getting somewhere (test every 15 strokes)
- 75 on the coticule = ok, this feels sharp, but isn't passing the hanging hair test.

So I shaved this morning with it (ultimate test, isn't it?): it cut my hair without pulling, but was still not sharp enough (with two WTG passes I could still feel my whiskers... which is not happening with my professionally honed razors). So I guess I have to keep up with the work.

So, here are my questions:

1) Is it normal that I have to hone that much a razor - even an ebay one - or did I do something wrong? I really try to follow Josh's advices (the angle of the arm, no pressure, ...)

2) To keep up the good work, is it better to go with a conservative pyramid, to get back only to the 8k (and check every 10 strokes) or to continue with the coticule (checking every 10 strokes)?

3) If I didn't make any mistakes, I think I will buy a more coarser hone to set the initial bevel faster... Is it better to get a Shapton 1000 and a 2000, or will only a DMT 1200 be enough?

Thanks a lot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ockham

Hi everybody,

Last evening, I decided to try honing. I was a little anxious about it and was trying to postpone it a bit until more comfortable with the stropping (one new thing to learn at a time). So, as my stropping is now quite good, I went in for honing.

First I lapped my Norton 4/8 and my coticule with a DMT 325. Following advices found on SRP. That was a piece of cake.

Then, I took a razor I bought on ebay (a Royal Crown), cleaned it with Maass (the razor was altogether in a good shape, besides little dark spots - maybe watermarks). The blade wasn't sharp at all. So I decided to get on with the hone. Here is the story:

- a conservative pyramid = the razor was not sharp (just to give it a try but without hope that it will do the trick)
- an aggressive pyramid = the razor was still not sharp, at all
- 15 / 15 = still not sharp but I can feel that something is happening to the edge
- 15 / 15 = not really improving; the razor is still not capable of cutting hair out of my knee
- 75 on the 8K only = oh... I can feel with my thumb that I am getting somewhere (test every 15 strokes)
- 75 on the coticule = ok, this feels sharp, but isn't passing the hanging hair test.

So I shaved this morning with it (ultimate test, isn't it?): it cut my hair without pulling, but was still not sharp enough (with two WTG passes I could still feel my whiskers... which is not happening with my professionally honed razors). So I guess I have to keep up with the work.

So, here are my questions:

1) Is it normal that I have to hone that much a razor - even an ebay one - or did I do something wrong? I really try to follow Josh's advices (the angle of the arm, no pressure, ...)

2) To keep up the good work, is it better to go with a conservative pyramid, to get back only to the 8k (and check every 10 strokes) or to continue with the coticule (checking every 10 strokes)?

3) If I didn't make any mistakes, I think I will buy a more coarser hone to set the initial bevel faster... Is it better to get a Shapton 1000 and a 2000, or will only a DMT 1200 be enough?

Thanks a lot

---

It really depends how bad the edge was. If it was similar to my usual ebay purchases, I use a DMT 1200.

Based on what you wrote, I think you spent too much time on the higher grit and not enough establishing a clean bevel first. Most razors should be able to cut hair by the time you finish on the 4k, then move to the higher grits.

It seems to be a pretty common mistake (based on what I have done and read here), that the newer honers jump to finer grits too early.

Hell, I still get impatient and "jump grits" sometimes, and sometimes it works.... but most times it just takes forever to get a shave sharp edge. Longer than it should really. :o

I'm not a honemeister, but I have about 20-ish razors I have restored, so take this advice with my relative inexperience in mind. :shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ockham

Hi everybody,

Last evening, I decided to try honing. I was a little anxious about it and was trying to postpone it a bit until more comfortable with the stropping (one new thing to learn at a time). So, as my stropping is now quite good, I went in for honing.

First I lapped my Norton 4/8 and my coticule with a DMT 325. Following advices found on SRP. That was a piece of cake.

Then, I took a razor I bought on ebay (a Royal Crown), cleaned it with Maass (the razor was altogether in a good shape, besides little dark spots - maybe watermarks). The blade wasn't sharp at all. So I decided to get on with the hone. Here is the story:

- a conservative pyramid = the razor was not sharp (just to give it a try but without hope that it will do the trick)
- an aggressive pyramid = the razor was still not sharp, at all
- 15 / 15 = still not sharp but I can feel that something is happening to the edge
- 15 / 15 = not really improving; the razor is still not capable of cutting hair out of my knee
- 75 on the 8K only = oh... I can feel with my thumb that I am getting somewhere (test every 15 strokes)
- 75 on the coticule = ok, this feels sharp, but isn't passing the hanging hair test.

So I shaved this morning with it (ultimate test, isn't it?): it cut my hair without pulling, but was still not sharp enough (with two WTG passes I could still feel my whiskers... which is not happening with my professionally honed razors). So I guess I have to keep up with the work.

So, here are my questions:

1) Is it normal that I have to hone that much a razor - even an ebay one - or did I do something wrong? I really try to follow Josh's advices (the angle of the arm, no pressure, ...)

2) To keep up the good work, is it better to go with a conservative pyramid, to get back only to the 8k (and check every 10 strokes) or to continue with the coticule (checking every 10 strokes)?

3) If I didn't make any mistakes, I think I will buy a more coarser hone to set the initial bevel faster... Is it better to get a Shapton 1000 and a 2000, or will only a DMT 1200 be enough?

Thanks a lot

---

Another "non honemeister" voice:

As for bevel setting I've got a DMT 1200 and it works well for me.

As for your razor I'll agree with joke1176, you seem to spend not enough time on the 4K, which you should be able to set a bevel on, it just takes some time, and when you did the 75 passes on the 8K, is it possible that you overhoned?

The 75 on the coticule, was this with or with out slurry?

Since your razor seems to be shaving, I would stick try the coticule with water and a drop of dishwasher detergent, and carefully watch how the water flows over the blade. I've found that when I'm approaching a shave ready edge the water starts to flow over the edge instead of being pushed away by the edge.


Hope this helps.

The sharpness of the razor is determined in the bevel..
Since you are using the pyramid method let's stay with it and re-read Josh's thread.. He shows a trick in there about doing a circular honing method to help cut the bevel... re-read that part on yer next razor, the one you are honing seems from what you wrote to be pretty close and should respond to the standard pyramid... Keep in mind that the pryamid method was designed to "sneak" up on a shaving edge on Norton hones and prevent over honing and it sounds like you are just about there... Slow, light, and easy... should get you there!!!

Are you HTT'ing after the coticule or have you thoroughly stropped the blade?

See how it responds to 60-100 laps on the linen and leather side of your strop. I've had razors that feel dull on the TPT and do not pass the HHT off the coticule but when I strop them for 80 or so passes, they perform like no other.

Thank you guys for your answers. And first to answer your questions:

@ Bjorn: I think I didn't overhoned because I checked the edge with my thumb (not my nail) every 10 or so stokes. But, as it is my first try at honing, I am not sure at all; maybe I could have not felt it (I don't know what an overhoned edge is, only a well honed one :D ). The 75 strokes on the coticule were done without slurry.
@ Poona: I made the hanging hair test before stropping; but before shaving the next morning I stropped 60 strokes on the linen and 50 on the leather (maybe more, but I don't remember exactly).

For my next razor I will follow your common advice and spent more time on the 4k, until my razor can cut hairs. I will - maybe next month with my next payroll - buy a DMT 1200 (the shapton 1000 and 2000 doesn't' seem to have many admirers) to set the bevel of my ebay razors. And I will follow this "circle" motion as shown by Josh and advised by gssixgun.

As for my actual razor, I will do a conservative pyramid and finish on the coticule (to follow both advices given). I will keep you posted (if I succeed as if I fail).

i was one of the many who thought that i had a good bevel set prioir to moving to the 4k. then it felt like i was on the 4k forever. i finally took a junk razor and just worked on my king 800. course, but sets a really good bevel. i took the edge to what i previously thought was a good bevel, then gave it another 10 strokes. then another, then another. this is where i learned all the work was done.

my 1st honed razor, i spent hours on trying to get a good edge. now, after i get the bevel set, it is a matter of 10-30 min to shave sharp, depending on the steel. focus on the bevel and it will change your world.

also note the scratch patterns. to see if i am truly touching my edge when setting the bevel, one trick i use is the circlular strokes, just one 'lap'. then do 5 with the x pattern. the x pattern strokes tell me what part of my edge is being honed. took me some time to really get this.

i am in the same boat as joke1176. only about 20-ish hones jobs, but they were all ebay specials with chips and bad edges. i have not done one yet that the bevel was set.

good luck, and let us know your progression.

vgod

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ockham

Thank you guys for your answers. And first to answer your questions:

@ Bjorn: I think I didn't overhoned because I checked the edge with my thumb (not my nail) every 10 or so stokes. But, as it is my first try at honing, I am not sure at all; maybe I could have not felt it (I don't know what an overhoned edge is, only a well honed one :D ). The 75 strokes on the coticule were done without slurry.

For my next razor I will follow your common advice and spent more time on the 4k, until my razor can cut hairs. I will - maybe next month with my next payroll - buy a DMT 1200 (the shapton 1000 and 2000 doesn't' seem to have many admirers) to set the bevel of my ebay razors. And I will follow this "circle" motion as shown by Josh and advised by gssixgun.

As for my actual razor, I will do a conservative pyramid and finish on the coticule (to follow both advices given). I will keep you posted (if I succeed as if I fail).

---

I've found my coticule to leave a slightly dull edge when used with slurry, so if you were using just water you'd be on the right track.

As for your current razor, try to get it shaveready on the Norton alone, and try to shave with it before you go to the coticule, and yes I know it's hard not to use your nice hones all at once :D, at least you'll hopefully notice the difference.

I said I kept you posted of my progress. So there it is, mid-success, mid-failure...

I get back to the hone yesterday: the razor was cutting my knee hairs after the 4K (they look funny now) and it looked promising. So I did the 8K for something like 20 strokes, and 15 on the coticule, strop 80 strokes on the linen and 50 on the leather.

So, mid-success: it shaved better than the last time without nicks or burns
So, mid-failure: it didn't cut properly all the whiskers and the shave is still not clean

Conclusion: maybe I am overcautious not to overhone my razor. Tomorrow I'll go back to the hone and try to finish it. The good point is that I feel when I shave that there is a progress.

Question: Is it better to finish it now only on the 8k until it passes the HHT or go back to the 4K?

hi better don't go back to 4k .go back to 8k ,coticle and cho, strop 5 each except strop you can do 30 stropping doesn't sharpening(alignes edge)You should be in good shape.if you razor after this gets dull sorry you are in overhoning process.(good will be if you get microscope and check your progress under mic)you will see step by step what happining after each step.
I think in sharpeing Rule #1 should be
NO pressure when you hone or strop.
if you can remember this you will rich your goals faster.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with going back to the 4k if the 8k doesn't seem to be giving the results you seek in a reasonable number of strokes on the hone. I'm not currently able to play with a pyramid as I've not owned a Norton in some time, but it doesn't hurt necessarily to go a pass or two on the 4k then polish the work with several on the 8k, especially when one is pretty close, as it sounds you are. The razor should be shave ready off just the 8k and a strop if need be, if you are using the coticule afterwards with just plain water, perhaps try straight off the 8k, then successively more with your coticule.
I've honed up plenty of old ebay razors for myself and didn't need the 1200K stone. It can be done on a 4k, it just takes a while longer.
Hope this helps somewhat(?)


John P.

I would give your razor one more try on the 8K, use 15 laps, and the coticule with water, 50 laps then strop & test shave. You should note a slight improvement at a minimum. If that is not good enough then go back and do a conservative pyramid because your bevel is not yet set as it should be.

As has been mentioned already, the establishment of the bevel is critical. The bad part is that there is no objective test for it! The HHT is a good indicator but your getting close to over honed at that point so be careful.

I use a 1000 grit to remove nicks and old oxidised edges. I set the bevel with the Norton 4K. I stay with the 4/8 until the edge passes the HHT off the 8K. Then I move on to the finer grits.

One little update in my travel through honing:

I am actually touring the hairdressers on the road from my home to the University, to see if one or two of them are disposed to get rid of their ancient blades (sadly many throw them away years ago to use straight with disposable blades). One promised me one or two of his old blades, but couldn't manage to find them back. During one month, from time to time I kept the contact and finally, yesterday, he gave me four of them: a Friodur 5/8, two Dovo 5/8 and one 4/8 :y But, the Firodur had a strange red mark on one scale (like nail varnish) with a loose pivot pin and was quite dirty, one Dovo 5/8 had two chips on the blade, the other 5/8 is quite ok and the scales of the 4/8 are broken.

I decided to clean the Friodur: I sanded the inside of the scales, tighten the pin, cleaned the blade with Maas (it bears an etching saying Pronto Service Zurich) and tried to buffed the red mark... the Dremel is a wonderful tool but dangerous... I cut a little in the scale when putting to much pressure to get rid of that f*** mark, but not too bad :( I'll remember for the next time for sure.

So now, back to the topic:

I decided to hone this one before finishing the Royal Crown. I didn't follow the pyramid but spent some time on the 4K until the blade cuts arm hairs, and then went to the 8K and remembered what Bjorn said: I honed it gently and very carefully and when the water get over the blade instead of under, I stopped, stropped 80 strokes on the linen and 50 on leather and shaved this morning: I did it !!! :nj

The shave was excellent on the cheeks where I could tighten easily the skin, a little less on the chin... so, this week-end I'll hone the Friodur on the coticule and get back with the RC to the hone and will try to use the same procedure as the one used for the Friodur.

Thanks a lot to everybody for the very good advices.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joke1176

It really depends how bad the edge was. If it was similar to my usual ebay purchases, I use a DMT 1200.

Based on what you wrote, I think you spent too much time on the higher grit and not enough establishing a clean bevel first. Most razors should be able to cut hair by the time you finish on the 4k, then move to the higher grits.

It seems to be a pretty common mistake (based on what I have done and read here), that the newer honers jump to finer grits too early.

Hell, I still get impatient and "jump grits" sometimes, and sometimes it works.... but most times it just takes forever to get a shave sharp edge. Longer than it should really. :o

I'm not a honemeister, but I have about 20-ish razors I have restored, so take this advice with my relative inexperience in mind. :shrug:

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Totally bang-on - I couldn't agree more. Use a DMT 1200 and if necessary be quite brutal to re-establish the bevel and gain a clean edge - that hone alone should be able to take the edge to a state where it feels pretty sticky. Believe me - no clean edge, no shave-sharp razor without a LOT of work!After that it's the black art of refinement of said edge with the finer hones (they tell me the first five years is the worst.....!).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blueprinciple

...After that it's the black art of refinement of said edge with the finer hones (they tell me the first five years is the worst.....!).

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Black Art is right: The better I get, the more I rely on feel and intuition instead of TPT or HHT for finishing passes.

If I had a SEM I wouldn't need all that fuzzy logic...

Just curiosity, what have you used so far to try to get rid of that red mark?


John P.

First I tried to clean it by hands with Maas. I didn't get a very good result (it would have taken ages). I was a little afraid to use sandpaper and risk to scratch the scales so I used my Dremel with a Felt Polishing Wheel (414) and Maas. Unfortunately it was difficult to buff out and I used a little too much pressure on a spot (I was becoming impatient... very wrong)

I think that next time I'll try to use a fine grit sandpaper, maybe it'll work better without the risk to cut in the scales (I need to buy some for a resto)

And it is a honing success!! The Royal Crown and the Friodur were actually honed to shave ready! (not as good as those I have honed by Lynn, but these two are the first honed by me and I am quite happy) I shaved my two passes with them this morning.

Thanks a lot to you all who helped me during my first travel through honing; this was an excellent experience that I really enjoyed. Now, I'm hooked.

:y:y:y:y

Good Job...
There is a great satisfaction the first time you shave successfully with your first self honed razor.....

:tu:tu

Good job, it's a wonderful feeling getting your first razor shave ready......

A DMT1200 will be enough to reset the bevel on a very dull blade. Are you looking closely at the blade under magnification? That's a wonderful way to see if what you're doing is having any effect. I use a Radio Shack Illuminated Microscope for $10 and it will inform your honing big time.

You can go DMT1200, then a belgian blue 4000 then a coticule 8000 and then strop. Or you can go to a Shapton 1k, then 4k, then 8k, then 16k and you'll be shaving fine. I didn't even need to strop after the shapton 16k.