Thread: first time honing + questions

Hi everybody,

Last evening, I decided to try honing. I was a little anxious about it and was trying to postpone it a bit until more comfortable with the stropping (one new thing to learn at a time). So, as my stropping is now quite good, I went in for honing.

First I lapped my Norton 4/8 and my coticule with a DMT 325. Following advices found on SRP. That was a piece of cake.

Then, I took a razor I bought on ebay (a Royal Crown), cleaned it with Maass (the razor was altogether in a good shape, besides little dark spots - maybe watermarks). The blade wasn't sharp at all. So I decided to get on with the hone. Here is the story:

- a conservative pyramid = the razor was not sharp (just to give it a try but without hope that it will do the trick)
- an aggressive pyramid = the razor was still not sharp, at all
- 15 / 15 = still not sharp but I can feel that something is happening to the edge
- 15 / 15 = not really improving; the razor is still not capable of cutting hair out of my knee
- 75 on the 8K only = oh... I can feel with my thumb that I am getting somewhere (test every 15 strokes)
- 75 on the coticule = ok, this feels sharp, but isn't passing the hanging hair test.

So I shaved this morning with it (ultimate test, isn't it?): it cut my hair without pulling, but was still not sharp enough (with two WTG passes I could still feel my whiskers... which is not happening with my professionally honed razors). So I guess I have to keep up with the work.

So, here are my questions:

1) Is it normal that I have to hone that much a razor - even an ebay one - or did I do something wrong? I really try to follow Josh's advices (the angle of the arm, no pressure, ...)

2) To keep up the good work, is it better to go with a conservative pyramid, to get back only to the 8k (and check every 10 strokes) or to continue with the coticule (checking every 10 strokes)?

3) If I didn't make any mistakes, I think I will buy a more coarser hone to set the initial bevel faster... Is it better to get a Shapton 1000 and a 2000, or will only a DMT 1200 be enough?

Thanks a lot

Originally Posted by Ockham

Hi everybody,

Last evening, I decided to try honing. I was a little anxious about it and was trying to postpone it a bit until more comfortable with the stropping (one new thing to learn at a time). So, as my stropping is now quite good, I went in for honing.

First I lapped my Norton 4/8 and my coticule with a DMT 325. Following advices found on SRP. That was a piece of cake.

Then, I took a razor I bought on ebay (a Royal Crown), cleaned it with Maass (the razor was altogether in a good shape, besides little dark spots - maybe watermarks). The blade wasn't sharp at all. So I decided to get on with the hone. Here is the story:

- a conservative pyramid = the razor was not sharp (just to give it a try but without hope that it will do the trick)
- an aggressive pyramid = the razor was still not sharp, at all
- 15 / 15 = still not sharp but I can feel that something is happening to the edge
- 15 / 15 = not really improving; the razor is still not capable of cutting hair out of my knee
- 75 on the 8K only = oh... I can feel with my thumb that I am getting somewhere (test every 15 strokes)
- 75 on the coticule = ok, this feels sharp, but isn't passing the hanging hair test.

So I shaved this morning with it (ultimate test, isn't it?): it cut my hair without pulling, but was still not sharp enough (with two WTG passes I could still feel my whiskers... which is not happening with my professionally honed razors). So I guess I have to keep up with the work.

So, here are my questions:

1) Is it normal that I have to hone that much a razor - even an ebay one - or did I do something wrong? I really try to follow Josh's advices (the angle of the arm, no pressure, ...)

2) To keep up the good work, is it better to go with a conservative pyramid, to get back only to the 8k (and check every 10 strokes) or to continue with the coticule (checking every 10 strokes)?

3) If I didn't make any mistakes, I think I will buy a more coarser hone to set the initial bevel faster... Is it better to get a Shapton 1000 and a 2000, or will only a DMT 1200 be enough?

Thanks a lot

It really depends how bad the edge was. If it was similar to my usual ebay purchases, I use a DMT 1200.

Based on what you wrote, I think you spent too much time on the higher grit and not enough establishing a clean bevel first. Most razors should be able to cut hair by the time you finish on the 4k, then move to the higher grits.

It seems to be a pretty common mistake (based on what I have done and read here), that the newer honers jump to finer grits too early.

Hell, I still get impatient and "jump grits" sometimes, and sometimes it works.... but most times it just takes forever to get a shave sharp edge. Longer than it should really.

I'm not a honemeister, but I have about 20-ish razors I have restored, so take this advice with my relative inexperience in mind.

Originally Posted by Ockham

Hi everybody,

Last evening, I decided to try honing. I was a little anxious about it and was trying to postpone it a bit until more comfortable with the stropping (one new thing to learn at a time). So, as my stropping is now quite good, I went in for honing.

First I lapped my Norton 4/8 and my coticule with a DMT 325. Following advices found on SRP. That was a piece of cake.

Then, I took a razor I bought on ebay (a Royal Crown), cleaned it with Maass (the razor was altogether in a good shape, besides little dark spots - maybe watermarks). The blade wasn't sharp at all. So I decided to get on with the hone. Here is the story:

- a conservative pyramid = the razor was not sharp (just to give it a try but without hope that it will do the trick)
- an aggressive pyramid = the razor was still not sharp, at all
- 15 / 15 = still not sharp but I can feel that something is happening to the edge
- 15 / 15 = not really improving; the razor is still not capable of cutting hair out of my knee
- 75 on the 8K only = oh... I can feel with my thumb that I am getting somewhere (test every 15 strokes)
- 75 on the coticule = ok, this feels sharp, but isn't passing the hanging hair test.

So I shaved this morning with it (ultimate test, isn't it?): it cut my hair without pulling, but was still not sharp enough (with two WTG passes I could still feel my whiskers... which is not happening with my professionally honed razors). So I guess I have to keep up with the work.

So, here are my questions:

1) Is it normal that I have to hone that much a razor - even an ebay one - or did I do something wrong? I really try to follow Josh's advices (the angle of the arm, no pressure, ...)

2) To keep up the good work, is it better to go with a conservative pyramid, to get back only to the 8k (and check every 10 strokes) or to continue with the coticule (checking every 10 strokes)?

3) If I didn't make any mistakes, I think I will buy a more coarser hone to set the initial bevel faster... Is it better to get a Shapton 1000 and a 2000, or will only a DMT 1200 be enough?

Thanks a lot

Another "non honemeister" voice:

As for bevel setting I've got a DMT 1200 and it works well for me.

As for your razor I'll agree with joke1176, you seem to spend not enough time on the 4K, which you should be able to set a bevel on, it just takes some time, and when you did the 75 passes on the 8K, is it possible that you overhoned?

The 75 on the coticule, was this with or with out slurry?

Since your razor seems to be shaving, I would stick try the coticule with water and a drop of dishwasher detergent, and carefully watch how the water flows over the blade. I've found that when I'm approaching a shave ready edge the water starts to flow over the edge instead of being pushed away by the edge.


Hope this helps.

The sharpness of the razor is determined in the bevel..
Since you are using the pyramid method let's stay with it and re-read Josh's thread.. He shows a trick in there about doing a circular honing method to help cut the bevel... re-read that part on yer next razor, the one you are honing seems from what you wrote to be pretty close and should respond to the standard pyramid... Keep in mind that the pryamid method was designed to "sneak" up on a shaving edge on Norton hones and prevent over honing and it sounds like you are just about there... Slow, light, and easy... should get you there!!!

Are you HTT'ing after the coticule or have you thoroughly stropped the blade?

See how it responds to 60-100 laps on the linen and leather side of your strop. I've had razors that feel dull on the TPT and do not pass the HHT off the coticule but when I strop them for 80 or so passes, they perform like no other.

Thank you guys for your answers. And first to answer your questions:

@ Bjorn: I think I didn't overhoned because I checked the edge with my thumb (not my nail) every 10 or so stokes. But, as it is my first try at honing, I am not sure at all; maybe I could have not felt it (I don't know what an overhoned edge is, only a well honed one ). The 75 strokes on the coticule were done without slurry.
@ Poona: I made the hanging hair test before stropping; but before shaving the next morning I stropped 60 strokes on the linen and 50 on the leather (maybe more, but I don't remember exactly).

For my next razor I will follow your common advice and spent more time on the 4k, until my razor can cut hairs. I will - maybe next month with my next payroll - buy a DMT 1200 (the shapton 1000 and 2000 doesn't' seem to have many admirers) to set the bevel of my ebay razors. And I will follow this "circle" motion as shown by Josh and advised by gssixgun.

As for my actual razor, I will do a conservative pyramid and finish on the coticule (to follow both advices given). I will keep you posted (if I succeed as if I fail).

i was one of the many who thought that i had a good bevel set prioir to moving to the 4k. then it felt like i was on the 4k forever. i finally took a junk razor and just worked on my king 800. course, but sets a really good bevel. i took the edge to what i previously thought was a good bevel, then gave it another 10 strokes. then another, then another. this is where i learned all the work was done.

my 1st honed razor, i spent hours on trying to get a good edge. now, after i get the bevel set, it is a matter of 10-30 min to shave sharp, depending on the steel. focus on the bevel and it will change your world.

also note the scratch patterns. to see if i am truly touching my edge when setting the bevel, one trick i use is the circlular strokes, just one 'lap'. then do 5 with the x pattern. the x pattern strokes tell me what part of my edge is being honed. took me some time to really get this.

i am in the same boat as joke1176. only about 20-ish hones jobs, but they were all ebay specials with chips and bad edges. i have not done one yet that the bevel was set.

good luck, and let us know your progression.

vgod

Originally Posted by Ockham

Thank you guys for your answers. And first to answer your questions:

@ Bjorn: I think I didn't overhoned because I checked the edge with my thumb (not my nail) every 10 or so stokes. But, as it is my first try at honing, I am not sure at all; maybe I could have not felt it (I don't know what an overhoned edge is, only a well honed one ). The 75 strokes on the coticule were done without slurry.

For my next razor I will follow your common advice and spent more time on the 4k, until my razor can cut hairs. I will - maybe next month with my next payroll - buy a DMT 1200 (the shapton 1000 and 2000 doesn't' seem to have many admirers) to set the bevel of my ebay razors. And I will follow this "circle" motion as shown by Josh and advised by gssixgun.

As for my actual razor, I will do a conservative pyramid and finish on the coticule (to follow both advices given). I will keep you posted (if I succeed as if I fail).

I've found my coticule to leave a slightly dull edge when used with slurry, so if you were using just water you'd be on the right track.

As for your current razor, try to get it shaveready on the Norton alone, and try to shave with it before you go to the coticule, and yes I know it's hard not to use your nice hones all at once , at least you'll hopefully notice the difference.

I said I kept you posted of my progress. So there it is, mid-success, mid-failure...

I get back to the hone yesterday: the razor was cutting my knee hairs after the 4K (they look funny now) and it looked promising. So I did the 8K for something like 20 strokes, and 15 on the coticule, strop 80 strokes on the linen and 50 on the leather.

So, mid-success: it shaved better than the last time without nicks or burns
So, mid-failure: it didn't cut properly all the whiskers and the shave is still not clean

Conclusion: maybe I am overcautious not to overhone my razor. Tomorrow I'll go back to the hone and try to finish it. The good point is that I feel when I shave that there is a progress.

Question: Is it better to finish it now only on the 8k until it passes the HHT or go back to the 4K?

hi better don't go back to 4k .go back to 8k ,coticle and cho, strop 5 each except strop you can do 30 stropping doesn't sharpening(alignes edge)You should be in good shape.if you razor after this gets dull sorry you are in overhoning process.(good will be if you get microscope and check your progress under mic)you will see step by step what happining after each step.
I think in sharpeing Rule #1 should be
NO pressure when you hone or strop.
if you can remember this you will rich your goals faster.