I was looking at getting a hone. The Norton 4000/8000 seems to be popular, but I was also looking at the 8000 DMT diamond hone. I like the idea of never needing to lap. Would the 8k DMT suffice as a single hone for a while?
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I was looking at getting a hone. The Norton 4000/8000 seems to be popular, but I was also looking at the 8000 DMT diamond hone. I like the idea of never needing to lap. Would the 8k DMT suffice as a single hone for a while?
provided that you break the hone in properly first and your razor is already sharp it will work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezza
as to how to break in the gone... hone some good steel on it for a while... use light pressure and work the whole hone this will help minimize any possible aberrations in your hone and will render ti useful for a razor.
the way... a nice cold chisel worked for me polished up just fine.
the 4k/8k would be more useful though if you get a ding or nick in the blade.
others will be by shortly with different suggestions.
I don't have a DMT D8EE, but I call on all those that do and have used them:
Honestly, does it really "cut like a 4000 and polish like an 8000"?
Clearly that wasn't a marketing tag that DMT floated out there, and I don't remember if I read that line on B&B or here, but SOMEONE said that. Was it Joel at B&B in a review?
.......Is it really true? You can do decent edge work on a Norton 4000. Can the D8EE match the Norton 4000 in cutting ability? I'd like to lay this truth or hype to rest.
Thanks.
Chris L
Don't trust me. I honed my first taped razor tonight.
I really like the way it felt though, throughout bevel to polish on my shaps
That's the main thing with individual tastes. How does it feel? Do you like it?
I don't think you'll ever know if you like it until you have choices, I mean different stones from which to choose.
I will tell you I don't know a lot about razors either, like which ones are very hard steel, which ones not so much. I don't know what kind of stones you have either, or your level of experience. Tell us that and you'll get far better advice.
However, diamond stones will abrade metal, much faster than any other material - natural or man made, and dmt's are pretty good ones. Diamonds do break down with use and the hone becomes finer with long use, while other synthetics are friable and keep their rating--everything in sharpening is a trade off
When I first decided to commit myself to jumping into this with both feet my friend forum member JBHoren had been at it awhile. He had the Norton set of 1K,4/8 and flattening stone. He sold them to me and got the DMT series of diamond plates from coarse through extra fine. He hones his many razors with them and is very happy with the results he is getting.
I was happy with the Nortons until the HAD contagion got in my blood and now I have an assortment of natural and synthetic stones. My only experience with the diamond plates is the D8C for lapping and the D8E for setting bevels and removing chips. They do an excellent job for that purpose.
I am glad that I started with the Norton 4/8. As most fellows here say it is a good stone for a beginner giving perceptable feedback and great results. I still have my Nortons and I still use them sometimes depending the the razor. I recommend the Norton 4/8 and maybe the D8E to set bevels and double as a lapping plate. The D8C would be better for the lapping but the 1200 would serve the purpose and save buying yet another plate.
The Norton is a proven performer for str8 razors that can handle a variety of razors. The DMT line up is still being sorted out by the SRP guys.
That means that some of us are not sure which DMT to use for removing old oxidised edges and nicks, which for the bevel setting that usually is done by the Norton 4000 etc.
Don't get me wrong, the DMT are very effective and good quality. Its just that a lot of us know the Norton hones and can give advice about their use in a specific situation.
Personally, I do not use diamond hones on str8 razors anymore. I feel they are to harsh on the brittle razor steel.
Just my two cents,:)
Personally,
I think you can do so, but like Randy said, most of the advice here is for the Norton hone.
That said, I loved my D8EE (DMT 8000) it does indeed cut fast and leave a pretty smooth edge quickly. It also is nearly indestructible and needs no soaking. I think mine (along with some razors etc. I'd rather have kept) is in the one box that got lost by the movers last June when I moved to Virginia.
I've even used it (it's slow) to lap my coticule hones once, but probably you are better using a coarser grit hone for that purpose unless you have a bit of time on your hands.
Both hones do a good job, IMHO, it's just a matter of what features you want, I guess.
John P.
Yeah, I think Joel was the first to say that. And yes, it's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisl
The D8EE (8k DMT) will remove metal as fast, or faster, than the norton 4k but it does so with 8k grit diamonds. I routinely go from using heavy pressure on the 1k DMT to the 8k and the scratches are gone in ~20 strokes.
I have found the DMT's to be indispensible in my razorsmithing endeavors. One blade that I did as a tester was just barely tempered to remove the internal stresses; it's final hardness had to be Rc 62+, maybe as high as 64 (usual razors are 58-61, the hardest any steel can be is 66-67) and it honed up just the same as any razor on the DMT's.
You do have to get used to the different feeling, but breaking them in by lapping a few stones or honing some sacrificial steel on them makes the feeling a lot better.
They do well for the usual honing needs as well but really should be paired with a finishing stone like a Thuringian, Coticule, Chinese 12k etc. But a pasted strop would suffice if you want to keep things simple.
You definitely HAVE to break in these hones! WHen I first tried one without breaking in it tore up my edge pretty good. After breaking it in, it works liek a charm.
Take the flat back of a chisel and run it back and forth on the hone for a few minutes with light pressure until the finish on the back of the chisel is nice and smooth (throw some water on there while you're at it). When you first start you will see it looking very scratchy. Keep going until the finish is nice and even.
Thanks Russel:Quote:
Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge
I'm really surprised there hasn't been more advocacy from the D8EE owners to recommend that newbies buy ONE STONE (the D8EE) rather than the Norton since a finishing stone is practically necessary after either.
Even though I owned a D8C and D8E and sold both when I went Shapton, believe it or not, I'm contemplating buying some DMTs again. Not for razors, but for lapping and honing wood chisels. I have down to 500 grit on the Shapton, but anyone who's lapped the factory grinding marks off of new chisel faces would agree, a DMT D8C would work just super for that and save a ton of time.
Chris L
I'm hesitant to advocate it sometimes because you could remove a lot more metal than you want to pretty easily.
On the other hand, there really is no such thing as overhoning with the DMT's, I mean they don't form a burr the same way the norton does, and it seems like that is one of the main problems new guys have when learning to hone. So one could make the point that there may be more advice circulating for the norton, but with the DMT's you're less likely to run into some of the common problems that would be solved by that advice (overhoning, lapping, when to step up in grit, how many aggressive/conservative pyramids to use, whether backhoning is necessary and, if so, how much, etc).
With the D8EE you just keep making passes until the edge stops getting sharper and then just move on to your polishing stage. (as a matter of fact, the Coticule performs the same way. The D8EE and Coticule get my full support over the norton, hands down.)
p.s. Craig, so you have one of those Jabberwocky-tough beards too, huh. ;) (I should be getting started on the Vorpal blade you designed pretty soon. I can't wait, great design!)
Yes, my whiskers gyre and gimble in the wabe.
;)
I prefer the DMT D8EE over the Norton4k/8k. Either one will work. I like the DMT's cutting speed and "feel" while sharpening.
Mostly a personal preference sort of thing. (I've been carrying a small DMT in my back pocket for over 20 years, so I have a prejudiced opinion :D)
Chris, don't know if you remember back to the Shapton on glass thread I did some experiments with the Norton 8k and a DMT D8EE ... I would definitely class myself as a newbie so I'm in no position to be handing out advocacy but like I said in that thread I do prefer the DMT D8EE over the Norton. Adding a Chromium Oxide strop to it makes for a very quick, no mess setup for most every day situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisl
I've managed to wreck a Wapi using the 4K side of my Norton, prior to me getting the DMT D8EE, so like Russel I wonder just how wise an idea it is to recommend to newbies that haven't learnt just how little pressure they should use and the golden rule of less strokes is better.
Barney
Sometimes it's hard to understand how a burr is formed when working both sides equally, one after the other. I mean hard for me:thinking:
However it seems like the faster a stone (hone) is cutting the more likely it is to produce a bur. Maybe not, you guys have any further thoughts?
I like the diasharps I have and the shaptons, but I've never cared much for Nortons. I'm sure they are ok, but there are several other synthetics I would take over N. Bester, Takenoko, Naniwa....
With a well worn 8000 diasharp I could see it becoming easier over time to mistake one side for the other.
When the edge is so thin that it either bends or starts to fall apart it is called a burr in the knifemaking world and a wire edge in the str8 razor world. There is a slight difference but no reason to quibble.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
In the knife world the appearance of a burr indicates it time to move to the next grit. In the str8 razor world that is usually cause for concern, but one of our guys, David Uthe, deliberately overhoned his razors. Once he had that then he moved on to the next grit, just like the knife guys. On his final grit he would go to overhoned and then back hone til the wire edge was gone, then perform a few more laps . It worked for him.:shrug:
Thanks Randy, I do understand what a burr is, I've been handtooling wood for over 20 years.
When sharpening a knife I seldom feel for a burr, as I figured it'd be cut off when I flip the blade to make a pass on the other side.
Like so many others I watch my wave, there is a lot of information there- so I can sorta tell when a given grit has done its deal.
The burr from an 8000shap is very small on a plane iron, I finish off with a light touch. But still I feel its a heavier touch than used for a razor.
One "expert" steel guy told me one steel can be as sharp as another, only retention suffers. Maybe true from the academic armchair, at some point it becomes a matter of grain size and hardness, the strength of the crystalline structure- so you need good steel to keep from over honing?
Sorry guys I can never stay on topic when your comments give me questions:OT:nj
I'll jump in here: I have a Norton 8k and the DMT 8k plate. The DMT really does cut super fast comparatively, but the finish is a bit rougher than the Norton.
I think it's a moot point as far as finish quality though, since most guys use a finishing stone afterwards anyhow. I say DMT!!
I have only been at straight shaving about 7 months but I still using the DMT 8EE and strop down to 0.25 paste and my total outlay was about $125 if I remember right. I think it is important to get the beginners going with a really sharp razor and an easy way to keep it that way and the 8EE is good for that. I am able to spend very little time honing and using pastes to keep 3 or 4 razors really sharp. Once someone is shaving for a while and wants to branch out then that is great. I am looking for a really nice natural stone but I don't have to be in a hurry. I think the big thing is get guys going with really great shaves and techniques and the rest will take care of itself.
Take Care,
Richard
One of the reasons for focusing on the Norton 4K/8K was to be able to guide new guys and help with problems. I do not doubt that other hones can do a very good job but do we have a sufficient number of people with experience in honing a variety of razors in various conditions that are willing and able to field all the questions from the newb's?
Please do not misunderstand me, I am not saying to stick with the Norton hones. But it seems that if we are going to advocate a specific hone then are we not obligated to provide support for our recommendations?
Do we have enough skilled people for each of the Norton's, DMT's, Shapton's, Belgians, Japanese hones, Spyderco's, etc.?
Food for thought,
I understand what your saying Randy and I agree, there's no use handing out recommendations without a little guidance to go along with it.
But if I may elaborate on my earlier point, some hones need less guidance to use and give the same or better results. I feel the D8EE is about as user friendly as a honing surface can be. It does not need to be soaked; does not form a slurry, which is a confusing topic for newbs; never needs lapping, which can be done improperly and create it's own set of questions; does not create a wire edge, which is sometimes hard to diagnose and difficult to avoid sometimes; it's performance does not depend on how many passes you do on the different grits because there is only one, and as soon as the bevel is set, the edge is as polished as it's ever going to be, so your done.
To me it's like having to teach someone to drive an automatic car versus a manual one; both will get you to the same destination but the manual transmission introduces a handful of other factors that aren't necessary for the beginner to worry about. Sure there are benefits to the manual transmission, and a skilled driver can then make the choice to use them as the need arises, but for the learning process they are mostly a hinderence.
I remember stumbling on many of the usual problems with the norton when I was learning to hone with it and enjoyed learning how to do it correctly, but I sure would have had a lot more fun if the D8EE had been around instead.
Just my 2 cents.
I agree that anything that can be done to make honing easier would be a definite plus. The difficulty of honing is one of the main stumbling blocks for a new guy. What now needs to be done is to determine where the DMT8EE fits and where it does not. Since I do not have that hone and will not for some time then it is up to you guys who have it to answer those questions for the new guys.
Personally, I will continue to recommend the Norton 4/8 as a viable tool for honing because I have experience with it and know its limitations.
I gotta go with what I know!:)
I agree with everything that the pros say here about honing, I ain't one. I guess that is the point. The 8EE is something one would use on a razor that has already been honed by a pro. I have honed out slight chips but mainly it is for resetting a bevel that is 90% there. I learned to use an 8EE in about a half hour and the pasted strop in about an hour. I just want to shave with a really sharp razor and with this setup, and a handful of my wife's hair from her brush, I accomplish this very quickly. I have learned a lot in the 7 months of straight shaving, about shaving, and not as much about honing. You guys that share your knowledge have taught me a tremendous about about honing and just now I am starting down that path but I am getting really good at shaving my face, which is nic:ye!
Thanks guys,
Richard
When comparing my Norton, DMT, and Spyderco Fine, I would rate them as follows (from most rough to least):Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
DMT, Norton, Spyderco.
When rating them by cutting speed I would order them thusly (from fastest to slowest): DMT, Spyderco, Norton.
When rating them by initial ease of use and learning curve (from least difficult to most difficult to get a "good" edge) I would order them accordingly: DMT, Norton, Spyderco
When rating them for maintenance and durability I would rate them like so (from most effort to keep hone ready for razor and longevity of surface integrity): Norton, Spyderco, DMT
I rate the norton as worse than the Spyderco since it's surface wears so damn fast, the spyderco second since I feel like I need to lap it every so often to keep it cutting fast, and the DMT as best since it is no maintenance at all.
Now as far as initial surface prep, to get ready for first razor contact, I rate it like this (from best/easiest to worst): DMT, Norton, Spyderco.
I have only seen 2 grits for spyderco, two sizes of hone as well. a pocket size and full size
Fine and ultrafine. I don't know how they measure their grit size, but they are listed as 1000, and 2000. Is this incorrect?
I have the small white one(fine) but have never used it except as a backing for micro-film abrasive.
They have a medium, fine an ultra fine. What is interesting is that they have changed the grit ratings over the past few years. It used to be that they rated the medium at 800 grit!:shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
No, the DMT8EE 8000 grit is a fast cutting stone that leaves a great edge but is greatly improved by following up with a few light strokes on a coticule. If you look at the edge of the razor under magnification after honing on the D8EE you'll see what I mean. It's not a "wire" and it's not ragged by any means but it's not shave ready either. An inexpensive coticule bout would be sufficient for the finishing strokes.
How about the DMT8EE followed by a TM paddle strop with 3, 1.5 and 0.5 pastes?
Because I know several people who don't care about learning all the intricacies of honing, but just want to shave with a decent edge.
They want automatic vs stick shift.
:OT Over here you won't find anything but stick shift, or you have to look very hard.
And if you learn to drive with an automatic and get your drivers license in one, then you get a different license which doesn't allow you to drive stick. :shrug:
Yeah, that should work just fine. I'll give it a try and report back, but I don't think there will be any problems.
The edge is very fine coming off of the D8EE, just not smooth. I think the 1 micron diamond paste followed by .5 or CrO would be enough to smooth it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
I like working the edge off the DMT on a finishing hone, BUT...going to the Chrome OX right off the DMT 8k works great. It just take more passes. No sweat!
That combination produces a very sharp edge but it is for me very rough. Using this other remains very sharp edge and very very smooth in the face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
5 or 10 strokes in D8EE
10 or 20 strokes in coticule
5 strokes in diamond paste 1 micron
10 strokes in diamon paste 0.5 micron
20 strokes in Chromiun oxide 0.5
if the straight only needs a slight touch only coticule followed by pastes or only pastes
Dioni
I'm one of the noobs who got the DMT 8EE and just have a pasted balsa Chrome Ox strop right now and I can definitely weigh in from a newbie perspective. The DMT was really easy to learn to use and no lapping so that's a plus. As far as the DMT 8EE straight to .5 Chrome Ox I can say that I can't get a good edge yet. Shaveable but not comfortable. I'm thinking you really need a 1 micron stage between the two as I've spent hours and hours on several razors this way testing and retesting and can't quite get there with just these 2 things. Currently I'm honing on the DMT until it almost can pass HHT but not quite (because I can't get it any sharper) and then about 20 passes on the .5 Chrome Ox but like I said, I think I need some 1 micron work between that.Quote:
Originally Posted by joke1176
Joke1176, how many Chrome Ox passes do you need to make after the DMT? Maybe that's my problem.
I do something similar but I've found the DMT quite easy to get and edge to pass the HHT. I started with a Norton 4K/8K and was never able to get a razor to pass the HHT straight off the 8K, I had to at least strop on plain leather to get it to pass the HHT. I'm still a noob, having only 3 razors that I've taken from factory grind to my version of shave ready, but I found that my razors wouldn't pass the HHT as I was putting too much pressure on the blade - as Lynn says a few light strokes is best.Quote:
Originally Posted by backpackerx
Barney
I like to use the DMT D8EE followed by a barber hone. Depending on the razor, I may finish up on some newspaper.
When people say the finish on newspaper how is that done? Is it laid over something or flat or what?
pYes, placed on anything flat is the usual method. Strop it like leather.Quote:
Originally Posted by backpackerx
A fine explanation, to which I'd like to elaborate.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
The Nortons hone with fresh and sharp particles that are constantly being renewed every time a razor passes over the surface. When the edge becomes extremely thin (and sharp), the risk arises that those particles know parts of the edge away, leaving the a sort of microscopical equivalent of barb wire.
With a DMT, diamond crystals are solidly embedded in the hone's surface. When the edge becomes equally thin as the crystals protrude the surface, it just creates a new straight edge with each honing stroke, provided that you don't exert so much pressure that the edge bends over and partially breaks off. Hence, a DMT maxes out at a given level of sharpness.
A coticule, that also hones with loose particles, rounds the edge at a certain level, due to the shape af the honing garnets (round with sharp segments) It kind of dulls the edge before it can create the barb wire structure.
Just my theory why it's possible to overhone on a Norton, and not on DMT's or coticules.
As far as I can tell, based on the vast amount of information I've read about it on this forum, the Norton4/8K is a real pro's tool. It's not easy to master: there's the overhoning issue, it demands an experienced and even stroke, it requires regular maintenance. BUT, is properly mastered it leads to premium sharp cutting bevel, than can be used to shave, or to refine further on any of the finishing hones (Coticules, Eshers, Thuringians, Shapton 16Kand/or 30K, Nakayamas, etc) It is, so to speak, the "Straight Razor of hones".
The "Double Edge Razor of hones" would definitely be the DMT- D-series (from the D6E to the D6EE, or D8E to D8EE). They are more fool proof than the Nortons: no lapping or deglazing, no overhoning, so pre-soaking. They even seem to be more forgiving to some newbie unevenness in the honing stroke.
For those who like the "Flint Razor of hones", they get get by with just one hone: the coticule. It's natural, and if you pick the right one, it can be absolutely minimalistic. I have one in my small collection that easily outperforms a DMT1200 speedwise, and still creates a decent shaveready edge, but it requires feel, knowledge and experience to get there. (Most members of SRP only use it as a finisher after the Norton or the DMT.)
In the end it comes down to character and personal preference. What type of guy are you? Answering that question tells more about what hone will give you the most satisfaction. Unless you're a HAD-type of person, in which case you like 'em all.
Best regards,
Bart.
I'd just like to thank all who have contributed to this thread. My honing experience is next to zero, but I want to start "driving"--automatic or manual, it doesn't matter. And so I've decided to go with the 8K DMT. I have a Belgian stone, and a four sided pasted strop. Once I get the DMT I think I'll be good to go for a while.
A couple questions: There's a SRP wiki article about DMT-E, Belgian combo (BBW and coticule), but I should get the DMT-EE right? Also, what size? I'd rather go with the less expensive (smaller 6x2 size) but do you fellas think the larger 8" is far better?
My goals are to be able to set bevels and then polish. Also, if possible, I'd like to make shave ready any antique razors I might find--given that the blade isn't too far gone.
The word is that you will need to add a finer stone after the D8EE because it leaves rough edges. I'd go for a Yellow Coticule (is that the belgian stone you already have?) and/or a C12k + slurry (because it's slooooow).
If you're beginning, I think it'd be better to stick to the 8x3 because it provides more stability. But the 6x2 will give the same results for less money... but you'll have to take your time.
I do have a Belgian yellow coticule.
And as it seems, Dia-Sharp doesn't make a DMT EE in 6x2 as far as I could search.
Thanks for the feedback!