Question for DMT users

Of course I'm refering to the hones....ehemm :D

I recently purchased a DMT D6E to add as a bevel setter before my Belgian hones. When I hone on the blue I expect a certain level of sharpness before moving up. My question to you all is what level of sharpness should I be looking for coming off the D6E? Currently it passes the TNT but does not shave arm hairs. The is a small part of the bevel that may shave, should I keep at it untill I get the whole blade shaving or is that beyond the scope of the D6E? Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

TNT is what I expect before leaving the 1000K grit. That would be comparable to your DMT6E.
After that I go to the 4K, and I hone until the scratch lines are gone.
Then I do a couple of pyramids, and then I go to the finishing stage.

The most important thing is to get good bevels before leaving the 1000 grit stage.
If that is good, then the rest should be relatively easy.
If the blade grips the nail along the entire edge, you are good to go.

If there is one part of the blade that seems sharper than the other, it either has a wire edge forming or the rest of the blade doesn't have a proper bevel set.

Can you see any reflection of light along the very edge when the edge is facing you (with a bright light nearby)?

If it's at the "sharper" area, that's the wire edge reflecting the light, you should move on to a higher grit, and do a little backhoning to remove the burr. If it's at any point along the rest of the blade, then there is a flat spot reflecting light and you should continue setting the bevel until the entire blade is a uniform sharpness.

I do a crude version of the HHT before leaving my DMT D6E.
However, I have noticed that many honers don't manage to get that degree of sharpness of the D6E.
Maybe it's because my DMT has seen so much use that it smoothened out a fair bit in comparison with a new DMT. I don't really know.
Either way, a bevel that's properly set at the 1200 grit level, should shave armhair very well, and even better if you wet your arm just a little bit.
Since you move to the Belgian Blue, after the DMT (that's also exactly what I do), it is double important that you go all the way with the DMT, because the Blue is definitely too slow to make up for neglected sharpness off the DMT.
If the edge, resulting from a progression of about 50 to 100 laps on a blue with slurry and after that, the same amount on a coticule with only water, is not entirely up to par, that is, IMHO, in the majority of cases caused by underhoning on the DMT. With this progression, you really must aim for the maximum on the DMT.

Best regards,
Bart.

Question???
still on topic here as to DMT use....
Are DMT's more prone to creating a wire edge or overhoned condition???? then say a Norton or Shapton 1k????

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Question???
still on topic here as to DMT use....
Are DMT's more prone to creating a wire edge or overhoned condition???? then say a Norton or Shapton 1k????

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If the DMT is properly broken in, I don't think so.
I have honed, rougly estimated, about 100 razors with a progression including a DMT D6E. Never encountered any overhoning issues.
It is possible that the Begian Blue with slurry removes any develloping "wireness" from the very edge, but I also inspect most of my razors at 40X magnification while honing, and I never saw anything that fits the descreption of a wire edge, after the DMT.
I did see microchipping from DMT's that were not completely broken in.

Bart.

I use an extra fine for rough honing, and do run into some "microchipping" on harder razors, or when I am really blasting off the steel, but nothing a finer grit stone wouldn't fix with a little patience.

Any razors that will end up being good shavers pass the HHT off that hone pretty well before I move up in grit. Actually, the more razors I resto, the more I use this as a shaving quality pre-test (there are always razors that buck this trend).

As far as comparing it to other hones of comparative grit, I have no experience with em, sorry gssixgun.

Regarding wiredges or overhoning: on this grit I backhone pretty often to prevent such a problem, so no issues yet...

I have talked to a material science engineer and he told me that diamond steels will seldom cause a wire edge. He stated that they cut the metal at a certain angle then just keep removing metal at that angle. I wonder if he is correct?


Take Care,
Richard

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Originally Posted by riooso

I have talked to a material science engineer and he told me that diamond steels will seldom cause a wire edge. He stated that they cut the metal at a certain angle then just keep removing metal at that angle. I wonder if he is correct?

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That's my experience with them; I can't recall ever creating a wire edge with the DMTs.

At least, not on a razor.

But it wouldn't surprise me too much to find out that it's possible.

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

If there is one part of the blade that seems sharper than the other, it either has a wire edge forming or the rest of the blade doesn't have a proper bevel set.

Can you see any reflection of light along the very edge when the edge is facing you (with a bright light nearby)?

If it's at the "sharper" area, that's the wire edge reflecting the light, you should move on to a higher grit, and do a little backhoning to remove the burr. If it's at any point along the rest of the blade, then there is a flat spot reflecting light and you should continue setting the bevel until the entire blade is a uniform sharpness.

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

That's my experience with them; I can't recall ever creating a wire edge with the DMTs.

At least, not on a razor.

But it wouldn't surprise me too much to find out that it's possible.

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OK now I am totally confused ????? :shrug:

I just wanted to cover all the bases, if one area of the blade feels "sharper" or just different than the rest, then there are two possibilities; wire edge, or improper bevel.

My technique with the DMTs doesn't seem to produce wire edges, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. I tend to use some decent pressure when I need to remove the kind of metal that suits the 1200 DMT, and with that procedure, I've never produced a wire edge. But another guy might use the "almost no pressure at all" method and could possibly form one. I have no way of knowing for sure so I figured I cover that base to be safe.

My last post also alludes to the possibility of forming a wire edge on the DMTs when using a different technique, it happens when I sharpen knives on them sometimes (not all the time), don't really know why.

Thank you all, this is why I'm happy to be able to make posts again. I can ask a question and in less than 24 hours I get a wealth of replies.

Bart- I'm glad to hear you go to the blue from the 1200. I wasn't sure if that was going to work so it's nice to hear someone else is doing it.

Regarding the potential wire edge or un-even bevel I would say both are possible. The blade initially had a pretty nasty bevel, I had to use a sawing motion on some sand paper to remove the bevel entirely. I'm thinking maybe I didn't remove it as well as I thought and now that I'm re-establishing the bevel there are spots that are being sharpened un-evenly.

The width of the bevel is a bit un-even though it passes the marker test along the entire edge so I have to assume the un-evenness is caused by my technique on this hone.

Is it possible that the hone still needs more breaking in? I lapped my blue and ran some kitchen knives over it untill it felt smooth. I ask this because when I first got the razor I removed the bevel as stated above and then used 1k/2k sand paper and then the blue/coticule to get it sharp, with this I had no problem getting it to where I felt I could shave with it. Then I decided the it needed to be prettier so I polished it up with sand paper and decided to use my new hone to re-set the bevel which is turning out to be slightly more difficult than I thought.

If you made it this far I thank you for reading my wall of text. :rolleyes:

Imo naturals don't need braking in. Only lapping.

DMT's need breaking in because there might be individual diamonds sticking far out of the honing surface, and they can scratch your edge badly.
If you break them in with a file or a knife, you remove those imperfections, and also clear away any residual dirt that might be on the surface.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

TNT is what I expect before leaving the 1000K grit.

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you have a million-grit stone?!? :eek:

Jcitron,

If you "sawhoned" the bevel away, it will take many (an understatement, actually) laps to reestablish a new bevel. Somehow, doing a high amount of laps on a hone that's a bit to fine for a given task, is more likely to introduce unevenness, than using less laps on coarser hones. For completely rebuilding bevels, I always start with a DMT 325, next the 600 and only then the 1200.
If you haven't got a coarser hone than the 1200, you might be better off using sandpaper on a known flat surface.

I have seen 4 DMT D6E so far, of which one required considerably more breaking in than the others. A great way to smooth out a DMT 1200 is to put a coticule slurry on it and rub a flat piece of steel (like a cabinet scraper) back and forth, with some pressure. (It's also a great way for polishing cabinet scrapers:)).

The only way to be sure that a DMT is properly broken in, is to check a honed edge for microchips, under magnification. But you generally also feel the edge hitting elevated diamond particles during the honing, and severe microchipping can be felt with a TNT.

I find that a drop of dishwashing saop added to the water allowes for a smoother honing feel, and the water covers the DMT better as well.

I wouldn't take a file, or anythinh with a very coarse grit to the DMT. There's a risk that you pull lots of diamond particles out of the nickel matrix, and that's not the idea of "breaking in".

Bart.

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Originally Posted by Bart

If you "sawhoned" the bevel away, it will take many (an understatement, actually) laps to reestablish a new bevel. Bart.

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It's interesting that this topic came up. I have a vintage coticule that has fine grooves worn in one of the corners where the previous owner would have drawn the edge through the groove/s.

I heard Howard Schechter mention the same technique. I have tried it on edges of vintage razors that have small nicks and chips (very small). It works beautifully. Drawing very lightly in a sawing motion at a 45 degree angle on a corner edge of a coticule maybe 10 passes or less makes for a perfectly straight edge under magnification and a great and quick place to start setting a bevel. Nicks and chips.......gone.

I agree with Bart to a degree, since you're widening the actual edge or flattening the edge this way, the amount of time it takes to establish a bevel I've found is probably about equal to the traditional method. Another way to accomplish the same goal.

To be clear, I'm not talking about a sawing motion until the original BEVELS are gone, I don't know why anyone would want to do that.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by Chris L

To be clear, I'm not talking about a sawing motion until the original BEVELS are gone, I don't know why anyone would want to do that. Chris L

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Removing a frown, or heavy corrosion from an Ebay junker, perhaps?
I've done it a couple of times, and I thought JCitron was talking about something like that.
The technique you described, removing only the "fin" of an edge, does of course not ask for going to hones coarser than the DMT 1200. I've also done that a couple of times, when ongoing attempts to push the sharpness envelope of a razor led to an edge that falls apart during one shave. The few times that happened was always with a freshly restored razor.
:OTI sand and polish with rotary brushes attached to a drill chuck. My guess is the temper of the thinnest part of the bevel is easily affected by that method. Removing the very edge seems to remedy that problem.

If by "fin" you mean removing a wire edge, I'm not talking about that; I'm referring to creating a clean and straight edge in very short order with simultaneously removing micro-chips and nicks to vintage razor edges thereby making the edge ready for bevel setting rather than honing and honing until the chips are gone. IME both methods accomplish the same thing and in roughly the same amount of time, it's just a different way of doing things. Wire edges would easily be removed in the same manner.

Sorry, I brought this post off topic in bringing this up in the first place. Shame on me!:nono:

Chris L

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Originally Posted by Chris L

If by "fin" you mean removing a wire edge, I'm not talking about that; I'm referring to creating a clean and straight edge in very short order with simultaneously removing micro-chips and nicks to vintage razor edges thereby making the edge ready for bevel setting rather than honing and honing until the chips are gone. IME both methods accomplish the same thing and in roughly the same amount of time, it's just a different way of doing things. Wire edges would easily be removed in the same manner.

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No, with "fin" I'm just referring the finest outer part of the edge. The part that's affected by stropping, and under the right lighting conditions shows up as silver lining at the very edge. (probably just light diffraction). I believe we're both addressing the same thing.
It's my opinion that if you need to remove a bad part of the edge anyway (chips, corrosion,...) it's better to cut to the chase and "sawhone" to clean steel first. It is slightly faster and I feel it leads to a cleaner meeting of the bevel panes.

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Originally Posted by Chris L

Sorry, I brought this post off topic in bringing this up in the first place. Shame on me!:nono:

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I takes two to tango, Chris, so I must claim half of the shame.;)

Bart.

Well guys, first off I love the aquisition of new knowledge, so if your being off topic allows me to learn more than I am game.

Let me clarify some things. I "sawhoned" the blade because the edge was un-even. I'm not talking about the bevel, I'm talking about the edge itself. Also, it wasn't un-even as in a smile/frown where the center/edges of the blade hits the hone. The edge of this blade looked wavy when viewed from the side, like shaving your face with a shallow sine wave.

Also, I sawhoned the blade well before I got this hone and established the bevel with sand paper and the belgians. What I did this time around was pretty it up some which naturally killed my edge but was still far from the damage sawhoning did.

Last night I decided that I was happy with it passing the TNT test even though it would not shave hairs and decided to move to the blue to see what I get. I think it was Bruno who said he expects the TNT to pass off that grit size and then moves up. Well after about a hundred laps on the blue it was shaving all along the blade. I have since done about 300 laps wet and 200 dry on the blue. (I just like to hone.)

Is it my technique that keeps me from getting a shaving edge on the DMT6E or perhaps the specific razor? This is the first I have tried on the DMT6E, maybe I will get different results with different razors.

:w You can tell by my long posts that me and my fiance don't discuss my honing in detail and thus I come here to let it all out.

Regarding shaving armhair at the DMT 1200 grit level:
if you get a great edge in the end, I wouldn't bother. I personally never got great results, if I wasn't already at the "shave hairs"-level at that stage, but if your mileage varies, I wouldn't worry too much. This isn't about shaving arms hair. In the end, It's about shaving your beard.
But, in case you should decide to go back to the DMT after all (which wouldn't surprise me:D), it really does matter for my results how much pressure I apply. I don't apply much pressure in general, but once I get a good TNT result, I really start doing almost zero pressure strokes.
It helps me to add some swiftness to my stroke, although an experienced honer like Randydance often advices against it. But I really can notice how the keenness increases every couple of strokes with that method. I keep a little box with a strand of clean hair, next to me for doing the HHT.
I don't stop till the HHT passes along the entire edge. It's a bit of a dirty version of the HHT, as I need to drag the hair accross the edge a bit, before it catches and pops. It takes me about 50 of those "swift" strokes back and forth, to get from the TNT to the crude HHT.

The Blue:
I only use the blue with a not too dense slurry. With water it's great to practice the stroke, and if you really do a lot of strokes it will eventually remove the DMT's scratch marks, but if you seek further refinement of the edge, you really need a slurry.

From where I start on the Blue, after 50 to 100 laps with slurry, the edge maxes out at a given level of keenness. That's when it's time to go to a yellow coticule, used with water only.

Different razors, different results?
Well yes, but in my experience, all razors so far easily reached shavereadiness with the aforementioned method. Differences emerge in what lies beyond that level. Some razors can be pushed further up the sharpness envelope and still keep good edge retention. The further you step into the realm of ultimate keenness, the more unpredictable it becomes how a razor responds to a certain treatment (such as stropping on CrO). But all my razors shave arm hair off the DMT, and they all shave well off the coticule.


Bart.

I expect to shave arm hair when working with a broken-in D6E, at skin level. This is when I can pass the marker test and TNT at the same time, and am using very light finishing strokes.

Well I will definately go back to the DMT in the future, maybe not with the current razor, we'll see how she looks in the end.

Soft strokes may be the key. I am still pretty new to this and tend to be a bit heavy handed.

Given I have done several hundred strokes, I have noticed the blue removing the scratch pattern with just water. I didn't want to use a slurry because of their tendency to max out at a certain level. Before I got the DMT I used a slurry to remove metal faster. I figure now that I can set a bevel on a lower grit I will make up for the lack of slurry by doing more laps. To be honest I don't mind doing several hundred laps, I like it.

Bart, in your experience does using a blue slurry after the DMT provide an edge that is superior to simply doing a lot of strokes with just water or is it just faster?

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Originally Posted by JCitron

Bart, in your experience does using a blue slurry after the DMT provide an edge that is superior to simply doing a lot of strokes with just water or is it just faster?

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If you're just going to remove the scratch pattern from the DMT, you might as well jump straight to the coticule with water. It does that job better and faster than a Blue with water.
In fact, for a while, that's just what I did, before finishing my edges on a strop with Chromium Oxide. This resulted in good shaveready edges.
But than I started doing tests without the CrO, and found that using the blue with slurry in between the DMT and the coticule with water, really resulted in keener edges.
Using a coticule with slurry in between the DMT and the coticule with water, resulted in the opposite: those edges were less keen.
That's part of the enigmatic behavior of the coticule: it's fast with slurry, but it maxes out at a certain level. The blue does that too, but the maxed out level is significantly keener.

I have not tried the use of a blue with only water before the coticule, but it is a multitude slower with water than with slurry. Too slow in my opinion to do anything beneficial. As I stated before, a Coticule with water is faster than a Blue with water.

If you're interested you can read my original post about the experiments honing without and with the blue being part of the progression.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...tml#post246781

Bart.

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Originally Posted by Bart

found that using the blue with slurry in between the DMT and the coticule with water, really resulted in keener edges.


I have not tried the use of a blue with only water before the coticule, but it is a multitude slower with water than with slurry. Too slow in my opinion to do anything beneficial.

Bart.

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That makes two of us that find positive results in blue with blue slurry. I've been enjoying using my blue slurry stone. The blue makes slurry faster than any of the other naturals I have at the moment.

Chris L

The advantage of having several coticules is that any can serve as a rubbing stone for any other and you get both get lapped at the same time.

The DMT6E is 1200 grit. I think it is normal that you don't get a shaving edge off of it. That's not what it is menat for. the ~1000 grit level in honing is to make sure the bevels are set correctly and touching each other in a sharp edge. After that, the purpose of honing is to ploish away the scratch patterns of the 1000 grit stage and to smoothen the edge so that it becomes both sharper and smoother.

The Blue is a 4K, and since it is a very slow cutter, it also polishes to a reasonable level, so getting a shaveable edge of the blue is to be expected.

Well I decided that there is plenty of time to experiment later so rather than spend more time using just water on the blue I decided to use some slurry. I don't have a slurry stone so I just rubbed the stone on the DMT a little, worked very nicely.

The edge is definitely coming along. Hopefully this weekend I can spend some time finishing it up for my Sunday shave. Thank you all for the wonderful advice.

On a side note, when I rubbed the blue on my DMT I noticed a pretty good scratch down the middle of the blue leading me to think that either there was some grit there, or the is a spot on the DMT that needs more breaking in. It's odd that something that feels so smooth to the touch could leave such a scratch. I have since run a screw driver over the entire thing a few times and sharpened a couple pocket knives. Hopefully that took care of it.

Yes, the D6E is a very good slurry builder.
No problem whatsoever using it, if you're without a dedicated nagura stone.

I stumbled across this older post of mine and decided to post an update. That blade ended up being one of my top shavers.

I have since used the dmt6E on all my hone jobs since then and it has varied a bit from blade to blade. I did a couple NOS blades out of Mass. and they cut hairs with ease right off the 1200. I find the 1200 is great for setting bevels on more hollowed blades. I have been going at it on a W&B 1/4 hollow with some chips and it's a painfully slow process.

Thanks for the update.
Concerning the Wade & Butcher: a rule of thumb I try to adhere to is this: if 15 minutes of work don't complete the bevel, jump down to a coarser hone.

Here's some simplified maths, based on the particle diameter of the DMT hones, and how that relates to the speed of material removal:

DMT-EE: 3 micron - speed ratio: 1
DMT-E: 9 micron - speed ratio: 27 (in one [9 micron]³ fit 3X3X3=27 [3 micron]³)
DMT-F: 25 micron - speed ratio: 512 (in one [24 micron]³ fit 8X8X8=512 [3 micron]³)
DMT-C: 45 micon - speed ratio: 3375 (in one [45 micron]³ fit 15X15X15=3375 [3 micron]³)

Hence, 1 minute of honing on the DMT-C (325 grit) will take you a good 56 hours of honing on the DMT-EE (8000 grit). As I said, this is oversimplified: it supposes cubic honing particles that fully penetrate the steel, but it still gives a fair idea of the exponential differences between different hones. When you're only removing scratch patterns further up in the honing progression, it does not matter that much, but when you need to remove a solid layer of steel to complete the wider bevel of a wedge or 1/4 hollow, realizing this really can make the difference between hours or minutes of honing.

Bart.

Wow, thanks Bart. That explains a lot actually. It looks like I'm going to have to break out the wet/dry yet again.

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I have a vintage coticule that has fine grooves worn in one of the corners where the previous owner would have drawn the edge through the groove/s.

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Drawing very lightly in a sawing motion at a 45 degree angle on a corner edge of a coticule maybe 10 passes or less makes for a perfectly straight edge under magnification and a great and quick place to start setting a bevel. Nicks and chips.......gone.

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Chris, I think that in the first of the Mastro Livi honing videos he draws the razor's edge across the edge of one of his hones. Perhaps that is for the same purpose. A link to the vid thread is here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/video...vi-videos.html

Sorry, I know this may be :OT