help setting the bevel

i just bought a 4/8k norton and am trying things out for the first time. i know you can't (reasonably) set the bevel with the 4k side so bought some 1k norton paper (until i can buy the stone) to try to set the bevel on a damaged puma i bought. the razor was brand new but had rust damage in the middle of the blade, so used some 600grit paper on a piece of glass and did the "bread cutting" method to regain astraight edge. it worked really well but obviously setting the bevel ofter that will take some time. can i go to a lower grit paper to get it started ( i have 600 and 320) and not run into any problems? it seems logical but this is my first time honing period. i am taking it slow though.

I am not an expert, but I believe I remember hearing that if you start with lower grits you increase the chances of micro-chipping while honing.

Can one of the honing masters confirm this theory?

i would use 1000 grit paper to set a bevel if i didnt have a hone for doing it there is a thread here somewhere about using sandpaper to set bevels here is the link not the one i was looking for but the same principle and a very good cheap way to hone a blade http://straightrazorpalace.com/basic...de-review.html

I wouldn't go below 600 grit, because it's just not necessary for what you're doing. (I haven't found that using coarser grits increases microchipping, but others say they've seen it happen.)

Stick with 600 grit, or even 1000 grit, and don't be stingy with the paper. You'll probably need to change it every 50 strokes or so. It cuts very fast. Be careful not to apply pressure unevenly or you'll cause problems. Just keep it even all through the stroke.

The main problem you're likely to have is going from the 1K sandpaper back to the 4K Norton. I've always found that the sandpaper leaves a rounded bevel, and it takes some time to flatten that out again on the hone. Don't be surprised if you hone for quite a while and don't notice any change. In your case, it sounds like you made a good choice to go with the paper, even given the rounded bevel issue. Some damage is just too extensive to remove with the 4K hones, at least in one lifetime. :)

Josh

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

I wouldn't go below 600 grit, because it's just not necessary for what you're doing. (I haven't found that using coarser grits increases microchipping, but others say they've seen it happen.)

Stick with 600 grit, or even 1000 grit, and don't be stingy with the paper. You'll probably need to change it every 50 strokes or so. It cuts very fast. Be careful not to apply pressure unevenly or you'll cause problems. Just keep it even all through the stroke.

The main problem you're likely to have is going from the 1K sandpaper back to the 4K Norton. I've always found that the sandpaper leaves a rounded bevel, and it takes some time to flatten that out again on the hone. Don't be surprised if you hone for quite a while and don't notice any change. In your case, it sounds like you made a good choice to go with the paper, even given the rounded bevel issue. Some damage is just too extensive to remove with the 4K hones, at least in one lifetime. :)

Josh

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My very first attempt at fixing a blade/sharpening was three days ago using 3M's papers. I had to do the Bread Cutting method to remove a chip. I then went to the 40 micron 3M paper to set the bevel. This only took 25 laps, but the paper was completely worn out afterward. I then moved on to the 15 micron paper. 50 laps, and again the paper was shot. The blade was shaving arm hair easily at this point. I then went to the 5 micron paper for 100 laps. Again, the paper was shot. Then on to 1 micron paper for another 100 laps. This ended up with the blade passing all sharpness tests, even the infamous HHT. The papers do work well, but they wear out so fast, I'm wondering if there is any economic savings in using them at all. I bought five sheets of 40, 15, 5, and 1 micron for 30 bucks. These papers cut *fast* when they are new. So if you even *think* the paper is slowing down, replace it.

It took three full 8.5 x 11 sheets of the 40 micron paper to lap my Swaty stone.

thanks for the posts. i think i figured out my problem. i have been over using the paper. BTW i definitely plan on getting a 1k hone as i can already see the advantages over paper. i will probably get a lapping stone also. could i lap my 4k and 8k on a1k stone? maybe that is a dumb question but oh well.

so would an intermediate grit between the 1k and the 4k help with the rounding of the bevel or is that going to happen with the paper no matter what?

i will try the 40-50 lap per piece and see where it gets me. thanks again and any other suggestions are always welcome....... as i am a newb:bow

Chee - make sure to lap your Norton 4k/8k before use, it does not come flat from the factory.

Good luck,
Mark

get a dmt 8c and be done with the paper and it is a flat bevle when you are done

Read this guide again,

One way to hone an eBay or damaged blade - Straight Razor Place Wiki

there is some important points in there about re-setting a "bread-knifed" edge.... One thing to understand is that you are not "sharpening" on the lower grits you are re-cutting a bevel just like they do in the factory... This is pure and simple metal shaping not razor honing per se, the honing doesn't start until the bevel is cut... I use the three layers of tape to do this, for the same reason as the factory people lift the spine to cut their initial bevel, you need to remove matal.... As to the micro chipping I haven't seen that, even on a 220 grit stone, and who cares if it does, you are going to switch to a 1k and refine the bevel anyway....

As Josh already stated keep the strokes nice and even, since you are now establishing your own edge, you might as well get it straight from the start....

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Originally Posted by chee16

thanks for the posts. i think i figured out my problem. i have been over using the paper. BTW i definitely plan on getting a 1k hone as i can already see the advantages over paper. i will probably get a lapping stone also. could i lap my 4k and 8k on a1k stone? maybe that is a dumb question but oh well.

so would an intermediate grit between the 1k and the 4k help with the rounding of the bevel or is that going to happen with the paper no matter what?

i will try the 40-50 lap per piece and see where it gets me. thanks again and any other suggestions are always welcome....... as i am a newb:bow

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Using another grit of sandpaper between the 1K and 4K won't help, because the issue is the sandpaper as a sharpening medium vs. a hone as a sharpening medium. The paper has some give to it, so it can round the bevel slightly. It's fixable if you realize what's going on. If you don't--I didn't for a long time--it can be very puzzling. :)

For what it's worth, a lot of other guys make out just fine with the sandpaper to 4K transition. I wasn't born with that gene somehow. :thinking:

You can use a Norton 1K to refresh the surface of your 4/8K. However, I greatly prefer a DMT 325 for lapping hones and a DMT 1200 for setting bevels. You can't lap with the DMT 1200--it's too fine and the hones stick together.

Keep at it! :)

Josh

so the 1k paper didn't work too bad. the bevel isn't bad and pretty even. my problem is that i think i should have bread cut a bit farther. in the middle i have some pitting and discoloration which is now allowing for chipping in that area, AKA a not so decent bevel. s i have a decent bevel but also a bunch of chips in the middle. i was trying to take the least amount of metal away as i could and i think i cut it too close. it is even though so that is promising, though it isn't very wide, but i imagine that is because the spine has absolutely no hone wear (as it was never honed) so compared to my Boker that has a lot of hone wear ( not from me though) the bevel is narrower.

i am making progress which is good. i'm still figuring out the norton 4/8k, but i do have razors in various stages of sharpness to experiment with which could be bad or good i' not sure yet. ha! as far as keeping at it goes, i'm addicted, theres no going back now. :tu

A narrow bevel is good. :) The narrow bevel means it'll be easier to remove any rounding that might occur, since you'll have less metal to hone away.

You'll want to stay on the sandpaper until all that junk is gone and you have a nice clean edge to work with.

Sounds like you're making progress, though. :)

Josh

i'm definitely making progress and i guess it is better to discover the chips now than have it happen later on when i had gone through the higher grits and would have to back track. for now i concentrating on keeping th bevel even. if it takes time, i don't mind.

+ 1 on not using the 1200 grit DMT to lap. I tried it once just to make sure my belgian blue was flat and you have to put too much pressure to actually make it remove material. The 1200 is so fine the water creates a cushion between the two hones and when you do put enouth pressure to make it cut you end up with them stuck together. But for bevel setting I love the 1200 DMT, for me the feedback it great.

i'm kind of leaning towards the norton 220/1000 combo. i have a tools store that carries it, the price isn't bad ($37). the DMT's sound like great products as many members praise them, but i don't know where to get them in Canada, plus they are a bit pricier.

i would definitely welcome any opinions or comparisons to help me make my decision. or if someone knows where to buy them in Canada that would be great also.

Chee, I was thinking of getting the Norton 4k/8k, then a seperate Norton 1k. But then the cost of a lapping stone came into play. So I'm rethinking...

This place...DMT Dia-Sharp 8x3x3/8 in. Diamond Plates sells the DMT Dia-sharp 8EE for seventy bucks U.S. Supposedly, this thing is 8k grit equivalent, but cuts as fast as a 4k. So it kinda does both jobs of the Norton 4k/8k, and it's about the same cost. So it has the following advantages over the Norton 4k/8k: You don't have to lap it, it cuts as fast as the 4k, it finishes off like an 8k. Disadvantages: some guys say it doesn't finish off very smoothly until it's "broke in".

So the other thing I/we still need is a 1k-1.2k solution... The DMT Dia-sharp 8E (1.2k grit equivalent) from that same place is 45 bucks. And again, it doesn't need to be lapped. I have heard that it cuts *much* faster than a Norton 1k, and again needs no real maintenance.

So now we've spent 115 bucks. Pricing out the individual norton pieces and an additional lapping stone comes out to be a few dollars more than that at all the places I've price shopped at.

So with SWMBO's permission, I'm gonna get the two DMT stones and call it good... at least until I'm no longer happy with the finish off my swaty stone and pasted strops... then it'll be time to niggle her for some finishing hones... :)

my big problem is shipping. when ever it comes over the border it costs me an arm and a leg (plus the Canadian dollar isn't too good right now) so i think i am gonna try out the 220/1000 norton for now (plus i really like the 4/8k so far) and i will see where i get. i managed to get my Puma (i think that it had a wire edge, and needed the bevel reset) to be shave ready, not done totally, but i shaved with it today and it wasn't bad at all, i just think a little more refining will smooth it out. i can't wait til my 12k stone comes in, i will be set. the CrOx smooths it out but i can't wait to fool around with the 12k.

so it would be great if you kept me posted on how you make out with the DMTs FloorPizza. i would be very interested to get your impression. and i will post my progress obviously.

BTW i lapped my norton really easily with some good quality 600 grit paper (less then a buck a sheet) and it worked great. i may get a lapping stone eventually but i know i can wait for a bit without it being a hassle or too much cost.

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Originally Posted by chee16

my big problem is shipping. when ever it comes over the border it costs me an arm and a leg (plus the Canadian dollar isn't too good right now) so i think i am gonna try out the 220/1000 norton for now (plus i really like the 4/8k so far) and i will see where i get. i managed to get my Puma (i think that it had a wire edge, and needed the bevel reset) to be shave ready, not done totally, but i shaved with it today and it wasn't bad at all, i just think a little more refining will smooth it out. i can't wait til my 12k stone comes in, i will be set. the CrOx smooths it out but i can't wait to fool around with the 12k.

so it would be great if you kept me posted on how you make out with the DMTs FloorPizza. i would be very interested to get your impression. and i will post my progress obviously.

BTW i lapped my norton really easily with some good quality 600 grit paper (less then a buck a sheet) and it worked great. i may get a lapping stone eventually but i know i can wait for a bit without it being a hassle or too much cost.

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Sounds good, Chee. :) SWMBO released funds from Escro today, so I ordered both the Dia-sharp 8E (1200 grit equiv) and the Dia-sharp 8EE (8000 grit equiv). Hopefully, she won't notice the Shapton 16k I slipped in there, too. :eek: Actually, I haven't slipped that Shapton in there quite yet... think I'll do some more research and ask a few more quesitons about what I should get to complement the two Dia-Sharps, my four pasted paddle strop (1.0, .5, .25 and bare), as well as my three line Franz Swaty stone.

What are your plans to finish with after the Norton 1k/4k/8k?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chee16

my big problem is shipping. when ever it comes over the border it costs me an arm and a leg (plus the Canadian dollar isn't too good right now) so i think i am gonna try out the 220/1000 norton for now (plus i really like the 4/8k so far) and i will see where i get. i managed to get my Puma (i think that it had a wire edge, and needed the bevel reset) to be shave ready, not done totally, but i shaved with it today and it wasn't bad at all, i just think a little more refining will smooth it out. i can't wait til my 12k stone comes in, i will be set. the CrOx smooths it out but i can't wait to fool around with the 12k.

so it would be great if you kept me posted on how you make out with the DMTs FloorPizza. i would be very interested to get your impression. and i will post my progress obviously.

BTW i lapped my norton really easily with some good quality 600 grit paper (less then a buck a sheet) and it worked great. i may get a lapping stone eventually but i know i can wait for a bit without it being a hassle or too much cost.

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Doh, I was mis-reading that as 1.2k. I see you've got a 12k stone ordered... which one did you get, a Norton? I'm really having a hard time deciding on a finishing stone.

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Originally Posted by FloorPizza

What are your plans to finish with after the Norton 1k/4k/8k?

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i already ordered one of the narrow chinese 12k stones that Chris L made up.. it hasn't arrived yet but when it does it will complete my set for now. i think this will be good for what i am doing. maybe eventually i will upgrade but i don't plan on getting into it to that degree at this point. i am all about functionality at this point, not luxury ( i just opened my own business so buying what i have now was a stretch). i have 7 razors now and one on the way from ebay. only 2 are shave ready and only one is due to my honing. two that are test subject razor that i don't mind messing up. two new pumas that have really weird rusting ( they were stored for abotu 25 years and rusted funny) and a couple that just need to be touched up. so i have the full spectrum to work with as far as honing goes. i have banned myself from ebay until i get all my razors shave ready. we'll see how my will power holds up.

after the 12k i have a CrOx strop and then a linen/ leather Illinois 206 ( i actually like how short it is). so far they have served me well but the Wade and Butcher i got is going to be a good learning experience. it looks really cool though.

That narrow 12k sounds very cool... be sure to let us know how that W&B turns out. I just sent my problem child blade to Glen today. It's a Red-Injun 101, and for some strange reason, on one side (the other side is just fine) the bevel starts out wide at the heel, then narrows to being almost non-existent at the toe. Since this is only on one side, the whole blade can't be bent, it's gotta be a problem with the spine on the one side, but I sure can't see what it is; it looks nice and straight. I did a bit more work on the bevel before I sent it to Glen, but I still wasn't really able to fix it.

This honing stuff is so challenging, it's turning out to be a fun hobby.