:D:D Point well taken....
PS: However if I were to keep all the restoration secrets to myself what would truly be the point of our community here, that is well established in sharing information !!!!
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IDK about this one.
As a relative noob I'll throw in my $.02
I first read about "breadknifing" in a post by Glen, and I wish that I had known about it earlier. I had just spent an entire Saturday fixing and establishing the bevels on 2 blades. 1 had a huge chip in it, and the other was wavier than Glen's example in this thread. Over 9 hours on the 1k, and neither one was ready to progress yet.
Had I known about "breadknifing", I would have saved myself at least 5 hours that day.
I now have done it a few times with great results.
Is it something for a total newb to try? nope.
Is it something to try on your 1st restore? nope.
But it is an advanced technique that has it's place in my bag o tricks, and I'm happy to know it's there if I need it.
Glen,
Not that you need the advice, English pretty much summed up what I would do: hone the edge perpendicular (let's avoid "the verb") till straight, then rebuild the bevel, starting on a DMT 325. If I also needed to restore the blade, I would do that first and smooth out the flat on that spine while sanding all the way up before polishing.
Imo, any other attempt to make that blade straight will end in frustration. If you'd attempt to hone on a coarse hone to make it straight again, you'd end up way beyond the point where the blade is smallest now and still have not managed to make it straight. You could also try honing a bit here and honing a bit there, making sure you had tape on that spine to keep it from being ground down unevenly. (Even if the flat is uneven right now, it probably is consistent enough in thickness) That method would be awkward and very difficult to get it straight. In the end the only decent shot to get this thing straight is to grind in the direction of edge with that edge perpendularly touching a coarse hone.
Alan,
thank you for your kind post. I'm sorry if I came across as being irritated. I'm an open minded person. I might get carried away in a discussion, but I will always consider all arguments. It's just that I didn't see any real arguments to invalidate the "breadknifing" technique. That annoyed me a bit, but it wasn't directed to anyone in person.
Tim,
I surely can't claim that it was a traditional technique, nor can you that it wasn't. I can only speculate that a craftsman repairing a blade 100 years ago, probably used a whole arsenal of techniques to tackle the problems as they were presented. Those craftsman are gone nowadays, mavericks like Glen left aside. If a blade needs a new bevel (due to a serious chip or a heavy frown), making it straight (or smiling) before recreating the bevel, is just plain good practice. No one can seriously deny that.
I testified that I also sometimes remove a very small portion of the edge, leaving way over 90% of the bevel intact, to remove weak or overhoned steel at the very tip. Suppose someone honed a razor on pastes, all the way up to .25 diamond compound, and then found the resulting edge harsh and irritating. How does he need to correct that? I would recommend him to drag the edge for two strokes over the side of a Belgian Blue, with no peculiar pressure. And then reestablish a flat bevel (it's convexed from the pastes) My reasons for that advice are in my first post on this thread. Other people would recommend cutting cork, others tell to turn it over the edge on the strop, both options that I don't really like, but that's probably for emotional reasons.
I understand now that your concern is to prevent newbies from getting knee-deep into honing trouble. But I'm telling you, they had it coming. Because they started fumbling without taking the effort of properly informing themselves first. There's nothing we can do about that.
I'm not the kind of person that locks and hides the kitchen knives for his kids. I provide them with information and learn them to respect those knives and what they can do. My razors are sitting in open boxes on top of my desk.
My conclusion and newbie disclaimer:
Breadknifing can remove an entire bevel within a matter of minutes. It can remove the razorsharpness of a blade within seconds. Sometimes it's the only way to salvage a damaged edge. Sometimes it's an option, among others, to tackle problems with weak or corroded steel steel at the very tip of the cutting bevel. It will never solve a thing for someone who doens't know what he's doing.
A sharp edge is never the result of fortuitously doing the right things in the right order, unless one breaks a mirror.
Bart.
I'm not convinced breadknifing is popular :shrug:
I was always intrigued by the cuts in the end of one of my 100+ year old coticule naturals as seen on the top edge of the stone in the photo below.
Attachment 17330
"Bread Knifing" as previously stated could describe minor to extreme edge flattening.
I followed in the footsteps of the prior owner/s of this vintage stone on a few razors that had moderate edge chipping/pitting. With only 10-15 back and forth weight of the blade only sawing strokes, under magnification the edges were perfectly even; Just great. Of course appearances can be deceiving since the actual edge was much wider/flatter. All in all, I feel it took the same amount of time to get shaving edges after that initial stage as it would have if I would have started honing out the chips in the "traditional" manner. Just a different way of doing the same thing.
I know some of you guys are talking about much more extreme edge removal than what I described, but I thought this observation might be useful.
Chris L
I have a Swaty three line stone that has alot of bread knifing evidence in it, too.
The main reason for breadknifing is to make sure you have a straight edge
and it's not new. they have been doing it for a long time
Carpenters and Cabinet Makers use that method all the times on their chisels, plane blades and even more on cabinet scrapers.
They even have special jigs to do it.
Having a straight edge is the first step to sharpening these blades and is of upmost importance.
When shaving, a real straight edge is not as important because the skin is pliable and will follow a slight curve.
Not so with wood. With a wavy edge you will see the waves in the finish wood.
I have only used this in extreme circumstances and only on blades that require serious reprofiling.
I had a nice W&B that was 8/8 at the toe and 5/8 at the heel, which is fine for a chopper, but this was a holl ground square point and it just wasn't going to hone right. Now it took some time to get it right but 'breadknifing'(this is not a term I like for the process!) really made this blade a great shaver. Now I have a perfectly proportioned 5/8 hollowground blade.
Here is the after pic of the corrected edge on the Boker
Attachment 17835
i came close to breadknifing one of my razors i got recently, which wasn't flat, or a nice smile, had a kind of wave about it in the middle, but rather than starting again i taped it up and just took some time on a 1k until it was fixed, unsure if thats what would normally be the go, but it worked well
and the good news is that an x pattern isn't needed . . . :)
With all due respect to all the members here, especially the experianced ones, I find that people go overboard with a lot of techniques described on this board. Let me explain...When most of these razors were new, that could be any time in the 1700s, 1800s, or 1900s, they were used for shaving exclusively. They didn't have Mach3s in 1898 or electric razors, the straight razor was your only choice really. Anyway I'm sure that when it came time to hone their razor that the owner didn't have 5 seperate stones to their disposal. They probably had a barber hone and a strop, possibly another strop loaded with mild abrasives. They likely honed it and stropped it and if it shaved half decent that was good. I feel blessed to have a Norton in 4000 and 8000 grit, that is more then they would have had to use. I can see if you are going at it as a hobby and your goal is to have the ultimate shaving edge, by all means become and honemiester and have 5 or so stones at your disposal while honing. If all you want is a good shave then something like a
Norton works fine. Personally I have breadknifed a razor, it kept chipping on the edge while honing it. Breadknifing it worked well and although it took me a long time to get the bevel back, it was worth it in the end. I'm by no means an expert, I'm just a beginner, but I use common sense and I have found honing a razor to the point of getting a good shave to be way easier then it is often made out to be in the forums here, maybe I've just been lucky with the five razors I've honed so far.
EXACTLY!!!! same point I was making in my first post to this thread....
Give me a new Dovo, TI, or a NOS vintage and I'll be shaving in 30 minutes... as will anybody else who knows their way across a hone....
But were not talking about those here....
Were talking serious metal removal, ie: just shy of a re-grind...
I breadknife almost every vintage or used razor I get. If the contour/profile of the edge doesn't need changed then I do it with several very light strokes just to be sure that I'm putting a new set of bevels on the edge. Just enough to make the entire edge fail the TNT before beginning to reset the bevels. If the entire edge already fails the TNT, as some vintage and used razors do, then I often do not breadknife it.
If the razor's profile has a frown, nicks, or other damage, then it gets heavier breadknifing until the profile is where I want it. I think breadknifing my way to a new edge profile, followed by setting bevels, is faster than just "normally" sharpening the bevels to a new profile shape. Either way, you end up removing the same amount of metal.
Yes, and straight razors were relatively quickly abandoned when factory sharpened blades became introduced on the market. Many guys had to rely on barbers for a decent shave. Those that did shave themselves, often only maintained the mediocre shaveability of their razor with doing a touch-up every once in a while, attempting to survive till the next annual visit at a professional sharpener, that possessed all the right tools for the job. I suspect that sometimes the guy would even rely on "breadknifing", to deal with a beat up edge. After all, it's an old technique, used in the sharpening process of many other tools.
I think modern "hobby-shaving" doesn't compare well to the weekly chore it was for many (but not all) of our forefathers. Of course we have a heated bathroom, a shower and a hot running tap at our disposal. And a forum on which we can share all kinds of information about sharpening and using razors. Pure science fiction over 50 years ago.
Best regards,
Bart.
"Breadknifing" or the practice of drawing an edge held vertically on a hone towards you, should only be done to remove chips. The practice was popularized in 1908 by a professor of cellular biology from Cornell who wrote a book on honing microtomes. You can read the excerpt from the book in my "Honing How To" section on my website. You can also see the technique on our new DVD "Honing the Perfect Edge" as performed by Harrelson Stanley.
I agree. In my opinion, this is a useful technique when you have to do some serious stock removal on the blade due to a deep chip or horrible geometry issues. And, depending on the geometry of the blade, it may not fix the problem. If you've got to remove a few thousands of an inch of edge, it's a much better solution than "honing it out".
This is not a technique I would recommend for restoring a bevel or any other sort of usual honing maintenance work. It's just a way to get to clean,l solid steel quickly and reshape the edge geometry back to something acceptable in razors that need some serious work. It's a salvage operation.
I first came across this option while using my own intuition during a honing session one time. I believe it was before I was even on SRP and surely had never seen or heard about it before. It is very effective and SHOULD only be used as a last resort, but why would anyone try to deny the merits of it? How can it not be a common sense practice for honing if common sense was the only way I came about using it? I tend to agree with the seasoned honers here and their viewpoint on the practice. I wouldn't suggest it on the 'vast majority' of razors honed or even many of them. Why get so caught up in it though? If a new honer wants to use the technique on every razor and come across the pros and cons (which it definitely has) of its use by himself- he has every right. I just won't be the one telling him to do it.
I've seen my share of new honers coming to the forums, in despair because they have no success with their first self-honed razor. They often tried a bit of everything: honed a few laps on what we razorguys call a coarse hone (a 1K or so), a few pyramids on the Norton, some prgressive honing, a bit of pastes, perhaps a coticule with slurry. They're terified of "overhoning", but usually they're actually "underhoning", failing to achieve a good bevel before going to the finer hones. Many times, because they also did pastes, the razor shaves a bit and gives (phoney) positive readings on the TNT and the TPT. Whatever they try, they'll allways end up with roughly the same unpleasant shave.
In such cases I usually suggest some way of dulling the edge first, to make the razor fail all tests that can show us when the bevel setting stage of honing is over. I used to accomplish that myself with one or two swipes, edge down on a Belgian Blue. But since there seems to be a Breadknifing Police developing on the forums, I've been experimenting a bit, lately. I found that the most reliable and "soft" (so to speak) method to do just enough dulling for the above purposes, is to draw the edge, breadknifing style, over the bottom of a glass jar. The lightest possible pressure, one swipe, sometimes two. I often need to dull a razor, in order to prevent false results on one of my honing experiments. It works like a charm.
On a razor that had a good bevel to start with, it does only require very little work to reestablish that bevel. On a razor that had a convexed bevel, it will of course take as long as it takes, but at least, when the razors starts shaving arm hair again, or passes the TNT, you know for sure that the bevel planes are straight and keen again.
I would like to know if it is considered "against all common sense" to make such a suggestion to a stumbeling newbie with a suspect bevel?
Bart.
Sounds great to me. From what you describe it would be the best of everything.
Only thing I could see is that it's still subjective. There are the hair tests but I gather they're not definitive and can give a false "pass" when there is still something fundamentally not right.
For the bevel setting stage and "sharpening" (as opposed to polishing/finishing) I'd think there would some more objective measure. Why not the microscope/magnified inspection? The $13 RS microscope seems to be barely passable but it's effective and within everybody's grasp. A good set of edge pictures with "correct" ones and "wrong" ones should give a beginner a pretty objective measure of their edge in this stage of the honing process. Wouldn't it?
Maybe we've gotten to the point that we overlook the fact that honing is:
-difficult
-finnicky
-individual
-not a science
-always different
-full of variables
-infinitely full of variables
etc.
Why bother to destroy a bevel just for the opportunity to reset it? I've reset countless bevels by just working on a bad bevel as is. Not saying that is the only way to do it... Anyway, we all started somewhere guys. We all passed hurdles. We may not have all 'breadknifed' a razor, but I'm sure we all learned something from it whether we did or did not try to. Is it a viable way to adjust the sharpness of an edge such as is every honing technique? Yes. Do we all need to or even want to do it? No. Is it something to be taken carefully? Maybe, maybe not. We all need to really just learn for ourselves if no one else can give us a solid answer... and let's face it- with so many varying opinions, there is no solid answer.
When did breadknifing get popular? Who knows.
In the Livi honing videos recently posted the Mastro does at least one light breadknifing stroke in his honing progression. One of the first ebay specials I honed was a cattaragus green lizard. I got the thing shaving but it had chips in the point end that I couldn't see with the naked eye but were visible under magnification. I honed for what I thought was quite a spell and didn't get rid of them. Later I found out about breadknifing.
I have done this with maybe a half a dozen razors. These had micro chipping or worse and it was expedient to use this method. Getting a bevel back was work but I don't know that it would have been any less had I flat honed the chips out. We are talking about an edge that resembles a hacksaw blade under the 30X lense with a larger chip here or there. For me it isn't a 'moral issue'. Breadknifing is just another method that is useful under certain circumstances.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. We're talking about inexperienced honers right? So that's a good example of something that might drive a new honer nuts. If they breadknifed they'd have a known starting condition. It really doesn't matter how much extra work it might involve or if they breaknifed a perfectly good bevel. What's important is that they are starting with a known condition.
I very lightly breadknife almost every vintage/used and new-to-me razor that I get. Because I want to be sure that when I pass the TNT, it's because of my bevel and not one that was applied earlier at a steeper angle. This way, when I go to the finer grits, I know I am cutting/polishing all the way to the very edge.
I don't use a microscope. Mainly using just the marker, TNT, and TPT; with a 10 power coddington used on rare occasion.
Sticky's post makes sense for those who don't have microscope, but as for the above, If you don't know whether you have any kind of bevel, destroying what you do have won't make it any more obvious! It isn't the starting point that is most important, it's the end result. I'm thinking that any new honer who starts off by trying to set a bevel will be doing so on a razor that will not shave. If that is the case, then just working on it until he has a bevel and can shave hair is the logical progression to me. A breadknifed edge will shave no better or worse than a razor without a set bevel technically speaking.
Anyone who doesn't use magnification when they hone is at a definite disadvantage. Before I used a 30X microscope I honed and shaved with razors that had partial bevels, micro chips that couldn't be seen with the naked eye. I have flat honed micro chips out and in a fairly short time. If the chipping is extensive breadknifing is more efficient.
The bevel needs to have the scratch pattern run from the cutting edge to the top of the bevel. It needs to be the same color under light with magnification or it is on more then one plane. A double bevel. This cannot be seen without magnification.
Howard's new video "Honing the Perfect Edge" is on the way to me. I have heard from a friend who has seen it that Harellson Stanley of Shapton takes a razor and lightly breadknifes progressively it through all of the grits from coarsest to finest. I haven't tried this yet but I may later today.
My usual routine if I do the breadknifing is to use my D8E 1200 and use whatever amount of pressure and strokes it takes checking with an eye loupe as I go. After I have gotten the edge cleaned up to my satisfaction I back hone 5 round trips and then begin to set the bevel with the usual Livi (A.K.A. Japanese strokes)and circular strokes. I don't do it unless it is necessary and wouldn't recommend it as a routine step in honing a razor. Just my 0.04 cents.
EDIT ; Just watched the DVD. Harrelson does a very light breadknifing stroke on the 16K glassStone after some of his "side sharpening" on the 1K. He then goes through the progression up to the 16 and repeats the breadknifing stroke once and even more lightly then the earlier one. He then continues on the 16 with his side sharpening and finally moves to the 30K. So I misunderstood what I had heard before seeing the DVD for myself. Very interesting presentation BTW.
1st, We're not talking about "destroying" a bevel, only about achieving a condition where it fails the TNT, TPT and SAT (Shave Arm hair Test).
The most common bevel problems are:
1. a convex bevel (usually caused by extensive pasted stropping) and
2. a double bevel (usually caused by honing with tape on the spine):
both 1 and 2 may pass the TNT TPT and SAT, can be revealed with the MMT (Magic Marker Test) and with inspection of how light reflects off the edge.
3. a dull edge (usually caused by wear after much (ab)use of the razor):
does not pass TNT TPT and SAT, but cannot be revealed with the MMT (Magic Marker Test) nor with inspection of how light reflects of the edge. Cannot be seen at magnification. Both bevel panes are striaight, they just don't meet each other at a small enough line to be keen.
4. a microchipped edge (usually cause by too much pressure and/or hones that are prone to overhone): may pass the TNT TPT and SAT, cannot be revealed with the MMT (Magic Marker Test) nor with inspection of how light reflects of the edge. Can be seen under magnification.
The glass jar method removes false TNT, TPT and SAT readings, and only returns them when the condition of a good bevel with straight planes meeting each other at a keen line is met.
Honing is a craft. The rules of physics apply. There are more ways to achieve the goals involved.
The steel doesn't know how you got there.
Downstroking on a glass jar is for those cases where the razor shaves marginally while the bevel is still off, preventing good sharpening. I would never advice a newbie to downstroke an edge if it was dull to begin with. There's no point dulling an already dull edge, is there? With the exception that for removing frowns, visual chips and massive corrosion, the best way to loose the steel that needs to be sacrificed anyway, is to downstroke on a coarse hone. But that's a totally different use of the downstroking technique, that was already covered in this thread.
Best regards,
Bart.