Edge longevity problems

I've been honing for about three months or so, and really enjoy it. I have a variety of razor grinds and sizes, and I'm generally able to get them to pass the HHT along their entire length, and shave well.

I just can't seem to keep that shaving edge for very long. The longest I've been able to use one razor without a hone touch-up is only a week. Usually, just two or three shaves. Sometimes, only one good shave, and I have to switch razors in the middle of the second shave. I have a heavy beard, and do a daily three-pass (WTG, XTG, and ATG) shave. I shoot for BBS on every shave, and will switch razors mid-shave if I'm not getting acceptable closeness.

My primary hone is a natural coticule. Sometimes, I add a 16K Shapton to the progression. Either way, I finish with a ChromeOx pasted balsa strop. I used to use a DMT 8K and Chinese 12K, with similar results.

While I don't really mind all the honing, it seems most guys on this board go weeks between touch-ups on a hone, sometimes months. Is my experience actually the norm or am I off the rails? Is there a typical cause for poor edge life?

How many laps on the CrO strop? How much pressure.
I 've had similar problems when I was still using CrO. (I did a 30+ laps with a firm drag)

I now get at least a dozen shaves out an edge, before it starts to duck my expectations (although it's still perfectly shaveready at that point)

Could you describe your most typical honing progression?

I 've been where you are. We'll figure it out.

Bart.

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Originally Posted by FatboySlim

I have a heavy beard, and do a daily three-pass (WTG, XTG, and ATG) shave. I shoot for BBS on every shave, and will switch razors mid-shave if I'm not getting acceptable closeness.

My primary hone is a natural coticule. Sometimes, I add a 16K Shapton to the progression. Either way, I finish with a ChromeOx pasted balsa strop. I used to use a DMT 8K and Chinese 12K, with similar results.

While I don't really mind all the honing, it seems most guys on this board go weeks between touch-ups on a hone, sometimes months. Is my experience actually the norm or am I off the rails? Is there a typical cause for poor edge life?

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Although I would bet that you and Bart will figure out the right combo with the Hones & Strops, your statement above makes me also think that shaving pressure might be a contributing factor to the fast edge degregation..... Here is a fact about straight shaving that naturally improves with time, when you are new there are two things that wear out wonderful edges fast... One is, slightly improper stropping I'm not talking rolling an edge I am talking that it takes a ton of practice to get your stropping to go from tweaking the edge before every shave, to actually helping to maintain the sharpness on every shave... The other thing is angle and pressure while shaving, as you progress, you learn exactly how to slice through your beard without pressure and without slamming the edge into the stubble, but rather scything though it... This will not happen overnight, but you will gradually extend the time between honing, though better honing techniques, better stropping techniques, and better shaving techniques...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

How many laps on the CrO strop? How much pressure.
I 've had similar problems when I was still using CrO. (I did a 30+ laps with a firm drag)

I now get at least a dozen shaves out an edge, before it starts to duck my expectations (although it's still perfectly shaveready at that point)

Could you describe your most typical honing progression?

I 've been where you are. We'll figure it out.

Bart.

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Thanks, Bart.

I usually do about 20 laps on the ChromeOx strop. I try to use light pressure, but a tendency to drift into using too much pressure has been a honing problem for me I have to watch.

I generally single-tape the spine, and keep that tape on throughout the progression, including the ChromeOx balsa stropping.

If I'm starting with one of my typical eBay "looks good for it's age" razors (haha), I start on a DMT1200 to set the bevel. I stop when I can shave arm hair, with some pressure. This can take anywhere from 60 to 200 laps, depending. I've had a few "smiling wedges" that I've gone as high as 400, because I was being inconsistent.

Then I move to either a King 4K water stone, or the blue side of the coticule, with slurry. I stay on this until it grabs arm hair above the skin, and ideally cuts some of it. Anywhere from 40 to 100 strokes, depending. If it takes more than that, I start over on the DMT1200.

Next is the yellow coticle with thick slurry, about like heavy cream rather than milk. I refresh with water about every 10 to 20 strokes or so until all the slurry is washed off, and I'm finishing with plain water. I've honestly stopped counting total strokes when I use the coticule, and try to go by feel, decreasing pressure as the mix changes from slurry to plain water. When I get a nice glassy "suction drag," I stop. At this point, the razor should easily grab and pop arm hair above the skin, and pass HHT. Estimate 40 - 80 strokes. Sometimes many more. If it won't sharpen, I start over on the blue.

If I'm getting HHT inconsistently along the length, I'll finish with between 20 and 40 laps on the Shapton 16K. This is generally "can't fail" for me for getting a shaving edge.

Whether the coticule or the shapton is the last honing step, I always finish on the ChromeOx. Habit.

Stropping technique as shown on some vids here in SRP was a mind opener. Hanging it high so strop is held vertical (down), helped my keeping the strop stiff enuf. After seeing that here I cursed all the movies that show the strops held loosely and horizontal. (thats why I always used a paddle strop) Now I'm shopping for a regular strop. Thanks to SRP!

I like 0.5 chrome oxide edges too, but my heavy beard will dull one in 3 to 5 shaves. I get from 30 to 80 or more when I finish on a barber hone or a 12k+. It depends on the razor too.

I also think the stropping is a major factor in the equation.

EDIT: I might be using too much pressure while shaving. Might be the reason I dull the 0.5 edge so fast. Thx, Glen. I'll work on it.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Although I would bet that you and Bart will figure out the right combo with the Hones & Strops, your statement above makes me also think that shaving pressure might be a contributing factor to the fast edge degregation..... Here is a fact about straight shaving that naturally improves with time, when you are new there are two things that wear out wonderful edges fast... One is, slightly improper stropping I'm not talking rolling an edge I am talking that it takes a ton of practice to get your stropping to go from tweaking the edge before every shave, to actually helping to maintain the sharpness on every shave... The other thing is angle and pressure while shaving, as you progress, you learn exactly how to slice through your beard without pressure and without slamming the edge into the stubble, but rather scything though it... This will not happen overnight, but you will gradually extend the time between honing, though better honing techniques, better stropping techniques, and better shaving techniques...

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Bingo, I've been waiting for someone to say this.

Edge longevity is not just about rolling edges while you strop, or over-reliance on pastes.

It's about (in my opinion, primarily about) shaving and stropping technique. Delicacy and sureness of touch counts a great deal on both fronts. Unlike how-not-to-roll-an-edge and how-not-to-overrely-on-pastes, unfortunately, here's no way to teach plain ol' muscle memory and experience over the 'net.

i think you are having overhoning issue.just check the edge after hone or does blade gets dull if you shave half of your face?just my thought

What kind of razor are you using? Steel quality issue?

later,
Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Although I would bet that you and Bart will figure out the right combo with the Hones & Strops, your statement above makes me also think that shaving pressure might be a contributing factor to the fast edge degregation..... Here is a fact about straight shaving that naturally improves with time, when you are new there are two things that wear out wonderful edges fast... One is, slightly improper stropping I'm not talking rolling an edge I am talking that it takes a ton of practice to get your stropping to go from tweaking the edge before every shave, to actually helping to maintain the sharpness on every shave... The other thing is angle and pressure while shaving, as you progress, you learn exactly how to slice through your beard without pressure and without slamming the edge into the stubble, but rather scything though it... This will not happen overnight, but you will gradually extend the time between honing, though better honing techniques, better stropping techniques, and better shaving techniques...

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"The Glen" nailed it once again!!:D
You may have other issues, but Glens post is absolutely on the money for 98.63% of edge longevity problems!

Glen made quite an observation there. Longevity is something that comes overnight, as you learn to maximize the efficiency of your shave, you automatically find the most economical way of using the edge in terms of longevity. But you said 2 to 3 shaves. That's not solely about stropping and shaving, unless something is very wrong.;) If you want to question your stropping technique (pressure mostly, I reckon) you could try halving your lap count, and see if that doubles the shave count... Probably not, but it doesn't hurt to try and rule major stropping issues out.
Now lets look at your honing. There's a lot in it that I recognize.:)

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Originally Posted by FatboySlim

I usually do about 20 laps on the ChromeOx strop. I try to use light pressure, but a tendency to drift into using too much pressure has been a honing problem for me I have to watch.

I think this is too much. Coming off the Shapton 16K, the edge really does not need much further smoothing. I don't know if you have a way to look at the edge at magnification, but you would see that 5 laps on CrO really affects the scratch pattern a lot.
When I had my share of longevity problems, I decided to skip the CrO for a while, and see if I could improve my honing skils without it. Not doing CrO makes it so much clearer where the edge is after honing. With me, my use of CrO really masked my inability to get the edge keen enough on the hones. Improvement did not came overnight. I slowly got better on the hones, and now that I feel confident enough to go back to the CrO, I don't really feel I have the need for it anymore.
I'm not saying CrO is the single cause of you longevity issues. I am saying that, if you need to do more than a few laps on it to gain all there is to gain with it, then you're not doing full justice to that fine hone collection you have there.

I generally single-tape the spine, and keep that tape on throughout the progression, including the ChromeOx balsa stropping.

If I'm starting with one of my typical eBay "looks good for it's age" razors (haha), I start on a DMT1200 to set the bevel. I stop when I can shave arm hair, with some pressure. This can take anywhere from 60 to 200 laps, depending. I've had a few "smiling wedges" that I've gone as high as 400, because I was being inconsistent.

Sounds all very familiar. :) I do more or less the same, minus the tape. (70)

Then I move to either a King 4K water stone, or the blue side of the coticule, with slurry. I stay on this until it grabs arm hair above the skin, and ideally cuts some of it. Anywhere from 40 to 100 strokes, depending. If it takes more than that, I start over on the DMT1200.

Still steady as she goes. (90)

Next is the yellow coticle with thick slurry, about like heavy cream rather than milk. I refresh with water about every 10 to 20 strokes or so until all the slurry is washed off, and I'm finishing with plain water. I've honestly stopped counting total strokes when I use the coticule, and try to go by feel, decreasing pressure as the mix changes from slurry to plain water. When I get a nice glassy "suction drag," I stop. At this point, the razor should easily grab and pop arm hair above the skin, and pass HHT. Estimate 40 - 80 strokes. Sometimes many more. If it won't sharpen, I start over on the blue.

Here's something I wouldn't do. I have included at each honing stage, in purple, my rough estimate of a level of keennes you need to hit to succesfully complete that stage. When you do a few laps on that Coticule with creamy slurry, you're dropping down to (65) or something. As you slowly wash the slurry while honing, you need to climb all the way up again. It is very likely to stay behind during that process.

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After the DMT 1200, I'd go for the Blue (with a light slurry). I can't comment on the King, but I'm sure it's a good hone. After the Blue, I would go to the Coticule with water only (about 100 laps). This is an edge to shave with and find out how you like it and how it lasts.
If you feel at that point it could be keener, I'd go to the Shapton 16K, right after the Blue, hone till it passes the HHT with great ease and probed keeness during the TPT maxes out. Again, I would shave with this edge as is, and see how it fits you. If you feel it could be smoother, I'd hone about 20 ultralight laps on the Coticule with water, after the Shapton 16K. Somewhere in that equation lies your ideal edge, and I bet it lasts you longer than 10 shaves.

This is gonna take a while to figure out. Keep us posted.

Good luck,

Bart.

My finishing technique is similar to yours but my CrO comes after the 30K Shapton and I get between 4 and 10 or 12 shaves depending on the steel in the blade. I have concluded that I have gotten used to the fine edge the CrO provides and when it deteriorates a little I want it back to where it was. I have a tough beard and figured that was the reason the edge comes off of its peak sharpness and smoothness. To me it's no big deal and touching up on the hones is the price I pay for the shave I want. I have 6 or 7 razors in rotation so the trip back to the hones and CrO doesn't come that often.

bj

Thanks for so much great advice guys. It helps that there are some common themes running through this. I wasn't sure if the edge longevity issue is due to honing, stropping, shaving, or a combination. I decided to post to the honing forum first, because I've always gotten great help here. And I'm among other honing fanatics. :D

Glen, your questions about shaving pressure and stropping pressure made great sense to me. Using too much pressure was easily the #1 problem I was having back when I started straight shaving in the summer, and I was getting horrible shaves. While I'm getting good shaves now, I'm probably still using too much pressure, I'm still very much learning this. I'll try backing off. Same with the stropping pressure, thanks to you and the other people who chimed in with that possibility. And, patience.

As far as the razors I use, my guess is my shaving pressure has gravitated me toward big ol' British razors, like Greaves, W&B, and Reynolds, half-hollow to wedge grind, 6/8 or 7/8ths. I have a few nice German 5/8s full hollows, but they tend to leave my skin more raw and they dull much more easily on me. Again, suggesting pressure... My favorite shaving razor is a heavy Greaves 1/4 hollow with a smile that I bought off the BST from holli4pirating - that's the one where the edge lasted a full week of daily shaves.

Bart, thanks for the detailed honing analysis. I will try backing off on the yellow coticule slurry and increase the strokes, and temporarily stop using ChromeOx, just so I can get a feel for the edge straight off the coticule.

2Sharp, I understand your point. Once I was finally able to start honing up good edges, I wanted to keep the edge at a very high level, and didn't mind the extra honing to keep the edge I wanted. But now that I've been trying out more 5/8ths full hollows and getting one or two shaves max, I figured I was doing something wrong. I had a conversation with my Dad about my Grandfather's routine, and he said he remembered seeing him stropping all the time, but rarely remembered him honing. Maybe coincidence, but it got me thinking.

I'll update this thread to let you know how it goes, and thanks again for all the good input.