I'm just wondering if i have been doing too much on the polishing stage as i thought this would give agood shave the better i polished and if so what are the symptons this can cause how woul;d i no i have over polished an edge.
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I'm just wondering if i have been doing too much on the polishing stage as i thought this would give agood shave the better i polished and if so what are the symptons this can cause how woul;d i no i have over polished an edge.
In getting a few pre honed razors from Lynn I looked at one of them under magnification and thought I might need to polish the edge more. I shaved with it and got a bbs comfortable shave without even stropping.
I remembered that in the video and on the forum Lynn has said that the least strokes you can use to get you there the better off you are. From that point on I stopped worrying about how polished the edge is visually.
That is where i go wrong i look at the edge and if it looks my mirror i think its going to shave bril and as you say not the case i have been finishing on75 bbw slurry and then 75 yellow water coticule and paste .5 etc or chr or both as this particular razor was not as smooth as icould get not in feeling shave stubble but felt harsh so i persumed it needed polishing more i repeated several times and i'm sure i over honed and i have to say its the first time but in away i'm glad it happend to me as i will learn from this.I actualy slotted the 12k kitiyama in before my belgiums for 25 laps and the razor was the worse harsh feeling i'd had from it with on my chin some blood spots apearing which i think peaple refer to as weepers.I honed on yellow with slurry and this seemed to take away the harsh edge and i have performed on 4k 5 laps and 15 on 8k stropped and shaved and the shave was a lot better plenty of grip and felt nicer on my skin.I then did 25 on yellow water only shaved the other side of my face and i would say tiny bit smoother and that will do me fine. When lynn said less is better i have never found that to be the case. Now i have to say he is right less can be better and that is what i will do from now on. how many laps do peaple normaly perform after 8k norton on yellow coti? I would of thought 20 to 30.
Gary are you quite sure you've done enough at the lower bevel-setting grits?
The Belgian blue & yellow stones are not prone to over-honing – in fact an ongoing theoretical debate here is whether it's even possible to overhone with them – so unless you're going hog wild with the chrome oxide I don't think overhoning's your problem.
Sounds to me like a problem at the lower grits; like you switched to the belgians too soon. The fact that things improved slightly when you used the yellow with slurry fits with this theory, because the yellow with (lots of) slurry can cut like a lower-grit hone.
+1. Take a razor that performs well and add 100, 200, 300, or even more laps on a coticule with water. You won't ever loose the edge. It won't improve form a certain point, but it won't deteriorate either. Heavydutysg135 has done an extensive test on this, all with the same coticule. He found no adverse effects. I have done a test were I added series of 100 laps on various coticules, to find out if there would be differences. I did not get the least sign of overhoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by dylandog
Bart.
That was the other thing i actualy recut the bevel a couple of times on my 1k and yes i have read that you carn't over hone on the naturals which i believe i also reset the bevel on yellow with slurry then i used the bbwslurry and then yellow water and it was smoother but then i tryed to get a bit more keeness using 8k then yellow water and it kind of was'nt the same so i tryed chr.5 only 5 laps and that was'nt to good so i tryed double bevel and that was terrible so i had to start again.After the belgiums i should of left alone because to be fair razor was as smooth as i could of got it . You have to make mistakes to learn but i always think could it be a bit sharper.I think the other thing is all razors shave differantly some have a smoother sound to them some sound like your butering burnt toast which can throw me out as they don't sound as smooth when in actual fact they are shaving well but just sound harsh but i no when a razor feels harsh on my skin i think we all do.
I agree that you can "over polish" but I disagree that "over polishing" is caused by a wire edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL
IMO there is a distinction between "over polishing" if we use that term and "over honing". I equate over honing with a wire edge. However, "over polishing" can yield a structurally weak edge but one that's integrally intact. Sounds like I'm describing a wire edge? There are similarities but I believe there's a key difference.
I also used to strive to achieve mirror polished bevels; bevels that had no or virtually no scratch patterns under magnification. They were a sight to behold and it was fun getting there. The edges were wicked sharp. However, IME they didn't last.
I visualize minor scratch patterns on bevels to be micro stabilizer bars adding integrity to the edge.
A wire edge is a burr. That's different to me than an edge formed by extremely polished bevels meeting.
Example: One can hone a razor properly on stones and spend a great amount of time on newspaper stropping the razor to polish the bevels. Granted it would be very slow going, but the newspaper would remove the very fine scratches left by a coticule, 12k, J Nat, etc. You'd have mirror polished bevels long before producing a wire edge if that would even happen. Over polished edge? IMO yes. poor shaving results due to a "wire edge"? Not IMO.
Jimmy's findings with Lynn's edges support this as well; fine scratch pattern vs. mirror polished bevels yields a better overall edge.
Chris L
I think O_S meant that the weepers were caused by a wire edge and not the over polishing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris L
Maybe. Mirror polished bevels which IME can create a temporarily wicked sharp edge can cause weepers if a feather touch isn't used and such an edge has nothing to do with a wire or burr edge.
Chris L
Hmmm. In the future, if you don't do this already, I would stay on that 1K til the razor's pretty darn sharp – popping arm hairs with ease, for example. Then do your 75 on blue w/slurry, then go on to yellow with very light (and runny) slurry for 25 or so laps, then another 50 on yellow w/water only, then test-shave, then top it up if you wish 5-10 laps on chrome oxide.Quote:
Originally Posted by gary haywood
By the way can you describe the harshness? is it (a) cutting swiftly & with ease but just feels scratchy? Or does it (b) pull a little, esp. on the against-the-grain, and leave the face shaved but just not shaved close?
(a) indicates overhoning; (b) indicates lack of keenness.
Another possibility here, and one we haven't talked about yet, is a nice sharp edge that nevertheless has some traces of oxidation left in it from sub-par restoration work. These have a 'harsh' feeling all their own. The only solution for these is going back to the 1K, and honing til there are no black & grey squiggles on your bevel.
Chris, that's interesting about overpolishing. I've never even tried to get a true mirror polish. I always thought people were speaking metaphorically when they mentioned it! Every razor edge I've ever looked at under magnification – mine, Lynn's, Joe Chandler's – has scratches, and plenty of 'em.
Spend a bunch of time on a Shapton 16k then transition to newspaper for hundreds of passes and you should see those scratches disappear. I should have qualified that the max magnification I go to is 80x using my stereo microscope and most often I just stick to 40x. I would guess that the scratch free mirror polished bevels at those levels would probably yield some scratches if viewed at stronger magnification?
Needless to say I don't hone the way I've described above anymore since I found as others have that it's counter productive. The excitement of pursuing ultimate sharpness vs. a well balanced longer lasting edge has waned quite a bit.
Chris L
my razor still removed stubble but like i say it hurt especialy agtg and i wonderd if this was down to lack of strenght in the edge. i will stick to no more than 20 on my 8k from now on. I did use the 12k kitiyama befor my bbw and yellow i think it may of been over using 12k kitiyama because thats when i noticed a deteriation in shave. May be i over did the bevel setting stages as i did repeat this 3 times in all.
dylandog harshness was as you described a shaved but felt scratchy and against the grain hurt like hell but did not pull and because of this i tryed smoothing the blade out with belgiums but it did'nt make much differance.I think i must of over honed on either 1k or 4k i realy did give it a good going over on 1k beaing in mind the razor is only 2 months old and it was'nt realy dull. The thing is how do you get rid of that edge they say back hone but i tryed that and it realy did'nt make any differance. It was only untill bart said i could set bevel with yellow on coticule with slurry that i did this and that seemed to get rid of that bad edge but i carn't say for sure.
I won't go near a 1K anymore unless a razor needs large chips removed or is as dull as a butter knife and needs a new bevel. For a razor with a proper bevel that needs sharpening I would stick with the 4K and maybe do pyramids with the 8 before moving up the grit ladder.
I'm wondering if this is the problem I've been having. I've been finishing my blades with the Spyerco Ultra-fine until I can see a truly polished bevel. The blade will do a HHT without problems but will last one or maybe two shaves at most before it is noticeably dull to shave with. It's been driving me nuts having to return to a stone after almost every shave. :gaah:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris L
My belief is that at the end of the edge is a fin or something. Maybe its a very fine malleable bit of steel.
After honing on say a 12000 grit hone, its quite a wide fine. Polishing is undertaken with 50,000 grit pastes and I think that at that level of fineness, the fin erodes as you polish. When its gone, the edge is no longer comfortable.
So polishing effectively reduces the life of the fin and the interval between the need to rehone.
I've stopped polishing and using Chromium Oxide or pastes for this reason. My blades will shave for a minimum of a month before the need to re hone whilst with paste, sometimes I would need to touch up after only three shaves.
Just my observations although I know fins don't exist.;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by English
My findings mirror yours. After about three or four shaves, stropping on linen first-then leather, the scratches are all but imperceptible at 15x mag and the edges last a long time.
A pencil sharpened on sand paper going from tip to root is stronger. Or so my technical drawing tutor used to say :)
PuFF