Thread: can you over polish

I'm just wondering if i have been doing too much on the polishing stage as i thought this would give agood shave the better i polished and if so what are the symptons this can cause how woul;d i no i have over polished an edge.

In getting a few pre honed razors from Lynn I looked at one of them under magnification and thought I might need to polish the edge more. I shaved with it and got a bbs comfortable shave without even stropping.

I remembered that in the video and on the forum Lynn has said that the least strokes you can use to get you there the better off you are. From that point on I stopped worrying about how polished the edge is visually.

That is where i go wrong i look at the edge and if it looks my mirror i think its going to shave bril and as you say not the case i have been finishing on75 bbw slurry and then 75 yellow water coticule and paste .5 etc or chr or both as this particular razor was not as smooth as icould get not in feeling shave stubble but felt harsh so i persumed it needed polishing more i repeated several times and i'm sure i over honed and i have to say its the first time but in away i'm glad it happend to me as i will learn from this.I actualy slotted the 12k kitiyama in before my belgiums for 25 laps and the razor was the worse harsh feeling i'd had from it with on my chin some blood spots apearing which i think peaple refer to as weepers.I honed on yellow with slurry and this seemed to take away the harsh edge and i have performed on 4k 5 laps and 15 on 8k stropped and shaved and the shave was a lot better plenty of grip and felt nicer on my skin.I then did 25 on yellow water only shaved the other side of my face and i would say tiny bit smoother and that will do me fine. When lynn said less is better i have never found that to be the case. Now i have to say he is right less can be better and that is what i will do from now on. how many laps do peaple normaly perform after 8k norton on yellow coti? I would of thought 20 to 30.

Gary are you quite sure you've done enough at the lower bevel-setting grits?

The Belgian blue & yellow stones are not prone to over-honing – in fact an ongoing theoretical debate here is whether it's even possible to overhone with them – so unless you're going hog wild with the chrome oxide I don't think overhoning's your problem.

Sounds to me like a problem at the lower grits; like you switched to the belgians too soon. The fact that things improved slightly when you used the yellow with slurry fits with this theory, because the yellow with (lots of) slurry can cut like a lower-grit hone.

Originally Posted by dylandog

Gary are you quite sure you've done enough at the lower bevel-setting grits?

The Belgian blue & yellow stones are not prone to over-honing – in fact an ongoing theoretical debate here is whether it's even possible to overhone with them – so unless you're going hog wild with the chrome oxide I don't think overhoning's your problem.

Sounds to me like a problem at the lower grits; like you switched to the belgians too soon. The fact that things improved slightly when you used the yellow with slurry fits with this theory, because the yellow with (lots of) slurry can cut like a lower-grit hone.

+1. Take a razor that performs well and add 100, 200, 300, or even more laps on a coticule with water. You won't ever loose the edge. It won't improve form a certain point, but it won't deteriorate either. Heavydutysg135 has done an extensive test on this, all with the same coticule. He found no adverse effects. I have done a test were I added series of 100 laps on various coticules, to find out if there would be differences. I did not get the least sign of overhoning.

Bart.

That was the other thing i actualy recut the bevel a couple of times on my 1k and yes i have read that you carn't over hone on the naturals which i believe i also reset the bevel on yellow with slurry then i used the bbwslurry and then yellow water and it was smoother but then i tryed to get a bit more keeness using 8k then yellow water and it kind of was'nt the same so i tryed chr.5 only 5 laps and that was'nt to good so i tryed double bevel and that was terrible so i had to start again.After the belgiums i should of left alone because to be fair razor was as smooth as i could of got it . You have to make mistakes to learn but i always think could it be a bit sharper.I think the other thing is all razors shave differantly some have a smoother sound to them some sound like your butering burnt toast which can throw me out as they don't sound as smooth when in actual fact they are shaving well but just sound harsh but i no when a razor feels harsh on my skin i think we all do.

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

You can over polish, we call it over honing. You will know when this happens as your shave will most likely be less than comfortable and you may have weepers. This is caused by a wire edge.

Having said that however, it really depends on what your final polishing media is, because there are some natural hones, that simply will not cause a wire edge.

I agree that you can "over polish" but I disagree that "over polishing" is caused by a wire edge.

IMO there is a distinction between "over polishing" if we use that term and "over honing". I equate over honing with a wire edge. However, "over polishing" can yield a structurally weak edge but one that's integrally intact. Sounds like I'm describing a wire edge? There are similarities but I believe there's a key difference.

I also used to strive to achieve mirror polished bevels; bevels that had no or virtually no scratch patterns under magnification. They were a sight to behold and it was fun getting there. The edges were wicked sharp. However, IME they didn't last.

I visualize minor scratch patterns on bevels to be micro stabilizer bars adding integrity to the edge.

A wire edge is a burr. That's different to me than an edge formed by extremely polished bevels meeting.

Example: One can hone a razor properly on stones and spend a great amount of time on newspaper stropping the razor to polish the bevels. Granted it would be very slow going, but the newspaper would remove the very fine scratches left by a coticule, 12k, J Nat, etc. You'd have mirror polished bevels long before producing a wire edge if that would even happen. Over polished edge? IMO yes. poor shaving results due to a "wire edge"? Not IMO.

Jimmy's findings with Lynn's edges support this as well; fine scratch pattern vs. mirror polished bevels yields a better overall edge.

Chris L

Originally Posted by Chris L

I agree that you can "over polish" but I disagree that "over polishing" is caused by a wire edge.




Chris L

I think O_S meant that the weepers were caused by a wire edge and not the over polishing!

Maybe. Mirror polished bevels which IME can create a temporarily wicked sharp edge can cause weepers if a feather touch isn't used and such an edge has nothing to do with a wire or burr edge.

Chris L

Originally Posted by gary haywood

That was the other thing i actualy recut the bevel a couple of times on my 1k and yes i have read that you carn't over hone on the naturals which i believe i also reset the bevel on yellow with slurry then i used the bbwslurry and then yellow water and it was smoother but then i tryed to get a bit more keeness using 8k then yellow water and it kind of was'nt the same so i tryed chr.5 only 5 laps and that was'nt to good so i tryed double bevel and that was terrible so i had to start again.After the belgiums i should of left alone because to be fair razor was as smooth as i could of got it . You have to make mistakes to learn but i always think could it be a bit sharper.I think the other thing is all razors shave differantly some have a smoother sound to them some sound like your butering burnt toast which can throw me out as they don't sound as smooth when in actual fact they are shaving well but just sound harsh but i no when a razor feels harsh on my skin i think we all do.

Hmmm. In the future, if you don't do this already, I would stay on that 1K til the razor's pretty darn sharp – popping arm hairs with ease, for example. Then do your 75 on blue w/slurry, then go on to yellow with very light (and runny) slurry for 25 or so laps, then another 50 on yellow w/water only, then test-shave, then top it up if you wish 5-10 laps on chrome oxide.

By the way can you describe the harshness? is it (a) cutting swiftly & with ease but just feels scratchy? Or does it (b) pull a little, esp. on the against-the-grain, and leave the face shaved but just not shaved close?

(a) indicates overhoning; (b) indicates lack of keenness.

Another possibility here, and one we haven't talked about yet, is a nice sharp edge that nevertheless has some traces of oxidation left in it from sub-par restoration work. These have a 'harsh' feeling all their own. The only solution for these is going back to the 1K, and honing til there are no black & grey squiggles on your bevel.

Chris, that's interesting about overpolishing. I've never even tried to get a true mirror polish. I always thought people were speaking metaphorically when they mentioned it! Every razor edge I've ever looked at under magnification – mine, Lynn's, Joe Chandler's – has scratches, and plenty of 'em.