An existential crisis of honing

(Warning, lots of words ahead. :eek:)
Honing has become a real stumbling block in my straight razor "career". When I joined this forum (exactly a year ago today, strangely enough) a huge part of the appeal was that I could get a set of equipment (razors, hones, etc.) and never need to buy anything for the rest of my life. I started getting okay at shaving with the straight, and then one day thought to myself "Hey, I think I'd be getter better shaves if this edge was sharper."

A few hours after my hones arrived I had successfully dulled my razor to the point of uselessness. This is hardly that surprising for a first attempt, I suppose, but I just could not get any of a handful of razors near shaving quality. I eventually got frustrated enough to drop back to just using a mach 3, but with real soap and a brush.

I recently decided to give the straight itself another go and find myself in a similar situation. No matter how much I read and then attempt, I can't get anything that I can shave with. Although this is usually a bad sign, I'm starting to wonder if the problem is (entirely) me, but actually is the razors. I don't feel like any of the razors I've tried really sit flat on the stone on both sides of the blade. One side feels like it's making solid, flat contact, but then when I flip over and go back down the hone the contact doesn't feel solid anymore. I can rock slightly onto the toe and the heel. Looking at the edge under magnification seems to confirm that the edge is a bit warped, as parts show smoother scratch patterns as I move up the progression, and other parts stay the same. The magic marker test appears to back this up.

So, after three stupidly large paragraphs, this brings me to my question(s). Are most razors warped to a slight degree like this? Should a properly executed X pattern work if the warping is only slight? Can I/should I fix the warping so that it does sit flat on both sides? (Assuming very slight warping, obviously a blade can be so bad as to be unfixable.)

In case it helps, my setup: 220/1k norton, 4k/8k norton, 6x2 coticule. Lapping done with sandpaper on a shiny granite tile.

I personally feel that if I can't hone my own razors, the benefit of this style of shaving is substantially lessened, so I really want to get past this learning curve. If I just can't figure these razors out, I may send them out to a honemeister. Maybe they could write a quick note about each razor, saying what, if anything, is less than perfect and what techniques can deal with the specific issues.

Hi Josh,

Hmmm. I am just starting out with my own hones. I did not make the mistake of putting my professionally honed razors on anything less than a Norton's 4K since the bevel had already been established (wonderfully by Lynn). I have a relatively NOS Jowika that needs to have the bevel established. I have tried the 4K but that hasn't really worked out very well. What I am likely going to do is send it out to Lynn as well. I'm not sure the expense of a 1K stone is worth it in the long run right now.

I have the following in the way of hones; Norton 4K/8K combo and CrO paste on a Tony Miller paddle strop (gorgeous strop, too). I am thinking of getting a Shapton 16K from Howard at the perfect edge. But I can't rationalize anything smaller grit than the 4K/8K combo that I already own. I've got 5 beautiful razors (4 that already have a great bevel). The only thing I need to do at this point in time is periodically touch these hones to refresh the edge. :gl:

Many razors need a rolling x because they don't sit perfectly flat on the hone. Heavydutysg comments in his video that most razors sent to him that users cannot get sharp do not have an adequate bevel set. I don't know how far you are from Howard but I think he is in Mass too. If you could meet up with him or find an experienced honer in your area that would be a big help. I had the good luck to have a forum member honemiester who lived close enough to me to show me how it is done. Made all the difference.

Hi,
It may be that each of your razors has a blade that's a pig to hone, or it may be that it's just taking a while to get the technique down. Bart recently posted this:
Strokes for honing a razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki
in the wiki & i really did find it helpful. If the blade's aren't true then you may find it helps make progress.
Don't give up! Get one sorted out by a honemiester & use that. Use the time that you've got then to practise on the best one out of the bunch you've got.
The stones you've got are fine.
It may be cheating a bit, i don't know, but a pasted strop may help you out with refining at the end.

Now, can anyone tell me how to make my links say "Look here", or anything else a bit snappier?!

Thanks, Ben. That is a nice little page. I've always been confused about something with the rolling X stroke, though. Assume (for sake of discussion) that a razor makes contact at the heel and the toe only. When honing one side of the edge, the convex side, a rolling motion moves contact from the heel all the way to the toe as different parts of the arc touch the hone. It's like rolling a ball through paint, obviously you'll end up with a stripe of paint all the way around the ball. However, what do I do in the other direction to get the concave side of the edge? Rolling will make the heel touch and then the toe, but I don't see how to get to the middle. To continue my dumb paint analogy, if you had a hollowed out hemisphere (dome) and a bunch of paint on the floor, I don't see any way of getting paint inside the dome.

Is part of the theory behind the X pattern that as you slide off the side of the hone, you can at least count on the toe plus the part of the blade that at the edge hitting?

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Originally Posted by KingOfMalkier

However, what do I do in the other direction to get the concave side of the edge? Rolling will make the heel touch and then the toe, but I don't see how to get to the middle. To continue my dumb paint analogy, if you had a hollowed out hemisphere (dome) and a bunch of paint on the floor, I don't see any way of getting paint inside the dome.

Is part of the theory behind the X pattern that as you slide off the side of the hone, you can at least count on the toe plus the part of the blade that at the edge hitting?

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This is where narrow hones come in handy. I have run into a couple of edges that were that out of whack and honing on a 1" or 1 1/2" wide hone did the trick in my particular situation.

Hmmm. Interesting. Maybe I'll try the coticule with a real thick slurry. It's the thinnest hone I've got. Randy also suggested (back when I first tried this) rounding the edge of the hone and using that. It's essentially making a very, very thin hone, if I understand correctly. I didn't get much success from it, but perhaps I just wasn't patient enough.

Can't help with the paint problem, but as far as the razor goes, the rolling x is primarily for smiling blades. I guess a lot of it depends on the width of the hone & just how badly out of true they are. Maybe hold some thread along the blade between heel & toe & you should be able to judge. How thick is that coticule? Is there enough of it to turn it on it's side & use the thinner edge? I guess you'd need an inch. If so, it'd need lapping 1st.

The coticule is glued to a slate base, so I don't see any way that I could take advantage of that, unfortunately.

Here is a statement that might help you out...

"Every mm of the razors edge must move across the surface of the hone evenly to create a sharp edge"

It does not matter what technique/stone you have to use to accomplish this, it has to happen...

Watch the water at the front of the edge and you can see, and feel what is going on.. That bead of water will move from heel to toe evenly if you are using the proper stroke... Keep that bead nice and even and you WILL eventually get a sharp edge...

I cannot emphasize enough how important a proper bevel set is to the outcome of the final edge...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Watch the water at the front of the edge and you can see, and feel what is going on.. That bead of water will move from heel to toe evenly if you are using the proper stroke... Keep that bead nice and even and you WILL eventually get a sharp edge...

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I've found water movement to be a really good indication on how my stroke where, and when the blade starts to "undercut" the water the razor is sharp. At least that's my experience with water and coticules. This requires the hone to be lapped dead flat.

Okay, on the way home from work I'm gonna get some more sandpaper and lap the hell out of my 1k just to make doubly sure it's in good shape. Then I'm gonna downstroke the razor I'm working on until I get rid of the nasty raggedness that I've got going on. Then I'll hit the 1k and pay a lot of attention to the bead of water, using the edge of the hone if that's what it comes to. With luck I can at least establish the bevel tonight.

Thanks for the advice, all. Hopefully I'll have good news tomorrow.

I've been enjoying the stroke on Howard's new DVD. Can I get it sharper likely can I get a good shave off them oh yeah!

OK, you definitely have a warped blade. Honing on a curved(rounded) surface will definitely take care of this problem. But...the control of the pressure you use is critical and the time required is much more.
To much pressure and you will have microchipping of the edge. This will start to occur at the 2000 grit sandpaper/4K hone stage if your not careful.

An extreme example would be to get some 1000 grit and 2000 grit sandpaper. Sit on a chair, take a broom, rest the handle on your shoulder, lay, not wrap, the 1000 grit sandpaper around the broom handle, pull the sandpaper tight on the handle, The, with tape on the spine of the razor, start honing on the broom stick handle with the sandpaper on it, edge first and gently. This will go very fast so check the edge frequently, like every 25 laps. Watch the wear marks on the sandpaper, adjust it as necessary.
Then switch to the 2000 grit ( equivalent to a 4k stone).

Now round the edge of the Nortons and coticule stones and proceed very lightly.
This will be slow but it will work. You might even skip the 4K.

If you need a short video of this then let me know.

The other method is to have the blade angled back greater that 45 degrees on the hone and use an use a X pattern. When you start have the angle at say, 55-60 degrees and when you finish the stroke the blade should be perpendicular to the hone. Try this first and be sure to watch the water in front of the blade.

Hope this helps,

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

The other method is to have the blade angled back greater that 45 degrees on the hone and use an use a X pattern. When you start have the angle at say, 55-60 degrees and when you finish the stroke the blade should be perpendicular to the hone. Try this first and be sure to watch the water in front of the blade.

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This is exactly the method I use, in fact I just finished doing one this way...

Well, if Glen and Randy both recommend a technique, you can be damn sure I'll try it out. Now I'm glad that life got in the way last night and prevented my from trying anything until after reading those posts. Two clarifications, if I may be so troublesome:

1) It sounds like you're basically describing the "Swooping X-stroke" pictured here Strokes for honing a razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki except the blade stops "swooping" at 90 degrees instead of continuing a little bit further like in the diagram.

2) Before trying this, should I still downstroke the razor until the edge is nice and even, albeit extremely dull, under magnification? I'm starting to get the idea that one of my problems is that I'm trying to do things to early. Like, sharpening the edge before the bevel is really set or setting the bevel before I even have a consistent edge.

One thing I noticed with your analogy is this; A warped razor is not like a dome, but like an arch. With a thin enough piece of material, like the edge of your hone when you do a rolling x-stroke, you'll make contact with the entire edge. The best way I heard it described is like this, even though your hone is 2-3 inches wide, try to hone only on about half an inch of the edge as if your hone were actually that narrow.

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Originally Posted by JCitron

One thing I noticed with your analogy is this; A warped razor is not like a dome, but like an arch. With a thin enough piece of material, like the edge of your hone when you do a rolling x-stroke, you'll make contact with the entire edge. The best way I heard it described is like this, even though your hone is 2-3 inches wide, try to hone only on about half an inch of the edge as if your hone were actually that narrow.

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Nicely worded !!!!:bow

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Originally Posted by KingOfMalkier

Well, if Glen and Randy both recommend a technique, you can be damn sure I'll try it out. Now I'm glad that life got in the way last night and prevented my from trying anything until after reading those posts. Two clarifications, if I may be so troublesome:

1) It sounds like you're basically describing the "Swooping X-stroke" pictured here Strokes for honing a razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki except the blade stops "swooping" at 90 degrees instead of continuing a little bit further like in the diagram.

2) Before trying this, should I still downstroke the razor until the edge is nice and even, albeit extremely dull, under magnification? I'm starting to get the idea that one of my problems is that I'm trying to do things to early. Like, sharpening the edge before the bevel is really set or setting the bevel before I even have a consistent edge.

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1. The Swooping X Stroke is a great name for this stroke and, no you do not need to stop at exactly perpendicular. Continue on if it suits the razor and you.
Please realize that only a small portion of the blades edge will be making contact with the hone at any one time. If you watch the water in front of the blade that will tell you if/where the contact is occuring. Warped blades are a PITA so don't expect this to be done quickly.

2. Using this stroke on a 1k or 4k will develop/set the bevel and the 8k will give a shaving edge.

I can not disagree with my knowledgeable forum members, because logically, what they recommend will work.

I can disagree with their advice.

Personally, I would take the warped razor and throw it in the bin. Just remember you are going to have to go through this fiasco every few months because the basic problem is not resolved, the razor is warped.

It should take a couple of minutes to re hone a razor and a few more to strop it. Otherwise, why bother to put up with what are in fact rejects. Bin it and buy a new one. Save yourself a lot of hassle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Here is a statement that might help you out...

"Every mm of the razors edge must move across the surface of the hone evenly to create a sharp edge"

It does not matter what technique/stone you have to use to accomplish this, it has to happen...

Watch the water at the front of the edge and you can see, and feel what is going on.. That bead of water will move from heel to toe evenly if you are using the proper stroke... Keep that bead nice and even and you WILL eventually get a sharp edge...

I cannot emphasize enough how important a proper bevel set is to the outcome of the final edge...

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READ WHAT GSSIXGUN SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN! Honing a razor isn't a race. If it takes HOURS to set a bevel-so be it. Use a magic marker and if you can get your hands on a cheap microscope and LOOK at the edge. Once the bevel is set-very little work is required on the finer hones to get the edge shave ready.

If you are short on loot, pick up cheap old ebay razors and PRACTICE. Learning to master honing on a razor with a "SMILE" will elevate your skills dramatically. Most important-don't rush. I have spent HOURS and HOURS with a hone on my lap, a spray bottle of water and a kitchen towel. Take your time-concentrate on the BEVEL. Without a well defined-properly established bevel, you are literally wasting your time.:gl:

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Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

.....with a hone on my lap, a spray bottle of water and a kitchen towel....

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how did i not think of using a spray bottle:gaah: that would make it soooo much easier. thank you!!

Josh,

Upon reading this thread (which is great and full of good advice), I have a few things I would like to add.

1. for the largest part, I have to disagree with English' post. On most razors, once a good bevel is dialed in, it doesn't need to be repeated. Honing becomes a task of refreshing the keen edge on that bevel. You did make things difficult for yourself by choosing a problematic razor, but that has an advantage too, at least if you manage to succeed. After that, you'll know the importance of a good bevel, and you know how to get it.
Nevertheless, for your particular blade, English might have a point. (see point 2 below)

2. There's one important thing, that I didn't see addressed in this thread: the possibility that not only your blade is warped, but that the spine is bend as well. With a "normal" warped blade, the twist is only in the thinner part of the blade, and not in the spine (that should be straight). In that case, the blade finds a stable position for every position during the stroke. But, if on the other hand, the spine is warped too, the bulging side of the blade can rock on all those positions. That makes a consistent stroke very difficult, if not impossible.
I have not seen such a razor yet, but from the information you shared, I think that may be your problem.
Here's what I would try. I first emphasize again that I have not yet tried this and I hope you can confirm the condition of you razor, for others to chime in.
This is derived form a method for making bulging soles on wood planes flat.
Place the razor, with the bulging part down, on a small coarse hone (about1/3 of the length of the razor). No tape on the spine. Tape on the edge. Hone straight back and forth, without flipping the blade. Apply pressure to the spine. Once the belly is gone, hone the spine a bit lengthwise, till it's completely straight. Remove the tape and proceed with a technique for a "normal" warped blade.
Let's here what other's have to say.

Bart.

Wow! Lots more great advice. Curse my busy schedule this week, I want to try this stuff out!!! Bart, that's a very interesting idea about flattening the spine and taping the edge.

While thinking about what English said I realized - to my embarrassment - that I left out an important detail. Some of the razors that I've been trying to work on are razors that I restored, removing a decent amount of metal.

This makes me fear that I've actually caused the problem Bart mentions by removing metal from the spine area unevenly. Fortunately, not all of my razors are ones I've restored. The reason I thought of this is because enjoy the restoration process (trying to make a set of three Henckels #9s) and can do a pretty decent job with the scales and shining up the blade, but can't complete the process. So, many of the blades I will work with in the future will be less than perfect, I suspect. Knowing how to deal with those less than perfect edges is pretty necessary if I want to continue restoring.

In order to actually get back into the shaving aspect I actually share English's sentiments and got a not-so-pretty but shave ready blade from a member here at a very reasonable price.

Bart

I can verify that the spine is a bit out of wack. I did what you described and I think the evidence is pretty clear. On one side of the razor, I can see additional hone wear near the heel and toe. On the other side, I can see additional hone wear near the middle of the spine. To me, it's pretty obvious that there is a slight bowing. I don't plan on selling this razor or anything, so I don't mind silly hone wear and will continue to do this until it seems flat. At the worst, I figure it will be straight when I'm putting hone wear all the way across both sides. And even if I ruin it, well, it's already pretty ruined right?

Once I've got the spine set, then I'll try to set the bevel on the 1k. Apparently this particular razor adds a fourth stage. :P

1. Set the spine!
2. Get a continuous, even edge
3. Set the bevel
4. Sharpen to taste

I figured I'd provide an update in case anyone is following this thread because they're in a similar position with a razor.

I believe that after a lot of work on the spine I now have a spine that sits flat on the hone. I took a few laps on the 1k and it definitely felt like it was making better contact, but the water bead seemed to be telling me that it was still not flat on the stone. At first this was very discouraging, but then I realized (correctly, I hope) that it should be expected. Since I had the edge taped while working on the spine, the spine may be straight but the edge is still warped as it was completely untouched.

What I plan on doing next is to do the magic marker test with some swooping X-strokes to get the little smile and the heel. This will give me a baseline of which parts are hitting the hone. Then I'll hone a bit and repeat the marker test. Hopefully more of the marker will disappear this time. I expect progress will be slow, but if I can see the marker shrinking that will give me the resolve to keep going until I finally have an honest to goodness bevel.

Another update and a question. Hopefully people are still reading this thread! :p

With a gentle rolling X stroke I appear to be getting good contact with the hone. The MMT under 100X magnification shows shiny metal all the way to the edge on 99% of the razor. The edge itself also looks pretty even. The only problem right now is that it won't get sharp!! It only catches the occasional arm hair and doesn't really bite during the TNT.

So here's the question: could the above description mean that the bevel is forming but that the left bevel and right bevel have yet to meet in the middle?

Now I'll just cross my fingers and hope I'm not talking to myself. :gl:

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Originally Posted by KingOfMalkier

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The only problem right now is that it won't get sharp!! It only catches the occasional arm hair and doesn't really bite during the TNT.

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(TNT: A sharp edge with well set bevels will dig in and/or drag across the nail with a smooth, even sensation.)

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So here's the question: could the above description mean that the bevel is forming but that the left bevel and right bevel have yet to meet in the middle?...

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Sounds like it. You need to pass the TNT on the entire edge before going to a higher grit. I'd stay on 1k (4k max) until it does.

Keep using the rounded edge of your wide hones, very lightly. A narrow hone under one inch width is what I usually use on a warped edge. It's basically the same idea as using 2 rounded/chamfered/radiused edges ≈ an inch apart. Try not to drag the tip of the razor off of the hone, it tends to round the tip.

Okay, I'll keep doing what I'm doing then, trusting that if all the marker is going away I've got a decent stroke going.