Low grit ??

Ive recently been trying to hone up this ebay beauty I scored about 6 months ago.

It had a couple very small chips in the edge, so I decided to reset the bevel.

Off of the 1000 grit paper, it was literally popping arm hairs. I was really psyched about this blade.

Then, I went to the 4k ... then 8k ... then 12k.

It seems that the darn thing was getting duller through the grit progression.

After about 50 laps on the 12k, I tried to shave me arm hair and it worked well. The next step for me is to try and shave a small area on the cheek. Man, did I get alot of razor burn from just one swipe. I figure that this razor burn is telling me that the edge just isnt sharp enough.

Strange ... but when I do a shave test fresh off of the1k grit, I dont get the burn that I do coming from the 12k. It feels smoother and sharper coming directly form the 1k grit.

So, my question is ..
I think this is due to my honing technique. It is happening now with a few razors I am trying to bring back to life... and not just the aforementioned ebay special.

I thought I might be overhoning, so I tried the pyramid method. It worked, but the edge was sharp for about 1/2 of a shave. To me, an edge should last at least one shave before refreshing it on a higher grit stone.

Is this a common occurance? What am I missing ?

Have you looked at the edge with a loupe and/or tried the magic marker test? If it appears to get sharper when you go back down the grit size, you may be creating a wire edge that the lower grit is removing. You could try a few back-honing strokes on each new stone before proceeding with normal honing on it - helps to knock back any wire edge that may be forming.

Are your stones all the same width? You might be varying the stroke to accomodate them.

Regards,
Neil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whiskers

After about 50 laps on the 12k, I tried to shave me arm hair and it worked well.

---

This is not enough on 12 you will need to do at least 100-150 get something out of your chineese 12

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whiskers

Off of the 1000 grit paper, it was literally popping arm hairs. I was really psyched about this blade.

Then, I went to the 4k ... then 8k ... then 12k.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

This is not enough on 12 you will need to do at least 100-150 get something out of your chineese 12

---

Progression is right :tu

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whiskers

I thought I might be overhoning, so I tried the pyramid method. It worked, but the edge was sharp for about 1/2 of a shave. To me, an edge should last at least one shave before refreshing it on a higher grit stone.

---

this is a sign or the overhoning.
Now what to do
you will need to put a new bevel to your blade and start all over.
the easiest and best way to start doing all this is buy a micriscope doesn't matter at least 30x which you can see the edge.
start 1000 set bevel then go to 4k this stage is very important i mean it after this stage you should be able to cut hair on your arm.
then 8k does more polishing and final stage 12 kyou need to do at least 100-150 strokes on it. strop and good luck
Now all your stones should be flat =lapped.good luck don't be stranger have questions just ask

What Niel and Sam said. I know in the video series heavydutysg points out that most of the razors sent to him by members who couldn't bring them to shave readiness needed further work to adequately set the bevel.

The magnification and the TNT help me determine that. The TPT follows as I progress up in grits. When you say shave arm hair, I assume you mean with the edge suspended above the skin ? If it is touching the skin it isn't a reliable test IMO.

Try shaving off the 8k. You should get a good sharp edge off the 8k that should be good enough to shave with. If not, there is no point going to the 12k. The 12k should just improve the edge, but you need a good edge at 8k first.

Steven

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nerobot

Try shaving off the 8k. You should get a good sharp edge off the 8k that should be good enough to shave with. If not, there is no point going to the 12k. The 12k should just improve the edge, but you need a good edge at 8k first.

Steven

---

I second that. :tu

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

What Niel and Sam said. I know in the video series heavydutysg points out that most of the razors sent to him by members who couldn't bring them to shave readiness needed further work to adequately set the bevel.

The magnification and the TNT help me determine that. The TPT follows as I progress up in grits. When you say shave arm hair, I assume you mean with the edge suspended above the skin ? If it is touching the skin it isn't a reliable test IMO.

---

Since I am relatively new to honing .... I thought I set the bevel rather well. I ran quite a few consistent laps on 1000 grit paper. Some of the blades I am referring to earlier in this post ... well ... have at least few hundread laps (easily) on them on the 1k. I checked the new bevel to ensure that the new bevel extended the length of the blade.between this and the TPT, I dont see how else to 'check' a new bevel besides shaving with it.

One razor I am struggling with , I've actually worn away a good 1/8 of an inch on the blade ... just on resetting the bevel. I have a hard time believing that the bevel isnt adequately set... well, with that one anyways. lol.

I would rather not wear away a large portion of the blade to reset the bevel. Sometimes, it is necessary, sure.

I usually lay the blade on the skin for a shave test. I dont suspend ... because when I do it doesnt work ... maybe the blade isnt sharp enough .... so to sharpen the blade, it's back to the stones. ugh.

I've honestly hung my hat on the shave test. I figure if I can shave with it, thats all that really matters.

Thanks for the replies, Guys.

I will try some methods out this weekend and see how the edges turn out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nerobot

Try shaving off the 8k. You should get a good sharp edge off the 8k that should be good enough to shave with. If not, there is no point going to the 12k. The 12k should just improve the edge, but you need a good edge at 8k first.

Steven

---

I have ....

Seems the only good edge I can get is off of the 1k.


:thinking:

It sounds as though you are doing everything right except your doing to much of it to me...
Taking off 1/8 of an inch of metal other than to fix a bad nick/chip is just too much honing...To me I would guess that you are getting an edge and then taking that edge back off there, Lynn has a saying on honing "Less is More" trust that....When you say 4k/8k I am assuming that this is a Norton??? If you are at arm hair sharpness coming off the 1k paper, then really I would go back to the basics and do a Standard pyramid and see what happens drop the 12k out of the equation and add 20 super smooth light 8k laps after the pyramid, strop 50 linen and 100 leather and maybe 20 laps on some .50Cr before the linen/leather and test shave....

Is the 1k paper, sandpaper? I am a newbie and tried honing Ebay specials and it takes forever on my Norton. Should I get 1k sandpaper to begin?

Or, a stone that would cut faster than 4000?

Thanks,

david

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

It sounds as though you are doing everything right except your doing to much of it to me...
Taking off 1/8 of an inch of metal other than to fix a bad nick/chip is just too much honing...To me I would guess that you are getting an edge and then taking that edge back off there, Lynn has a saying on honing "Less is More" trust that....When you say 4k/8k I am assuming that this is a Norton??? If you are at arm hair sharpness coming off the 1k paper, then really I would go back to the basics and do a Standard pyramid and see what happens drop the 12k out of the equation and add 20 super smooth light 8k laps after the pyramid, strop 50 linen and 100 leather and maybe 20 laps on some .50Cr before the linen/leather and test shave....

---

So, I tried this method. The blade took an edge, sure. I noticed alot of irritation after my shave. I am attributing this irritation to the sharpness of the blade. The blade was shaving, but it seemed limited. After two passes, I still have stubble and the skin is very sensitive to the touch... and quite red.

I think some laps on the 12k are in order to smooth out the edge.

Honestly, I dont really know what else to try.

I dont think it's my shaving technique. I use the weight of the blade and I'm not pushing or anything.

It's almost as if the edge isnt sharp enough.

Maybe I am expecting too much. Honstly I can get a better shave from a cartridge. I'd like to think the straight razor would give me a better shave, but the longer I go on shaving with a straight ... the less true I am finding this to be. I really think it comes down to the sharpness of the blade... which apparently I am struggling with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whiskers

So, I tried this method. The blade took an edge, sure. I noticed alot of irritation after my shave. I am attributing this irritation to the sharpness of the blade. The blade was shaving, but it seemed limited. After two passes, I still have stubble and the skin is very sensitive to the touch... and quite red.

I think some laps on the 12k are in order to smooth out the edge.

Honestly, I dont really know what else to try.

I dont think it's my shaving technique. I use the weight of the blade and I'm not pushing or anything.

It's almost as if the edge isnt sharp enough.

Maybe I am expecting too much. Honstly I can get a better shave from a cartridge. I'd like to think the straight razor would give me a better shave, but the longer I go on shaving with a straight ... the less true I am finding this to be. I really think it comes down to the sharpness of the blade... which apparently I am struggling with.

---

Have you ever had a razor honed to shave ready by someone like Lynn or Glen (gssixgun) ? If the only straight you have shaved with is the one that you have honed you don't know what "sharp" is. Get one honed by Lynn or Glen and then you will have something to compare your own efforts to . Keep one or better yet two shave ready by a honemiester and get a few more off of ebay to practice on. Prep and technique are other possible issues but until you get a truly sharp razor those cannot be evaluated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by davyboy

Is the 1k paper, sandpaper? I am a newbie and tried honing Ebay specials and it takes forever on my Norton. Should I get 1k sandpaper to begin?

Or, a stone that would cut faster than 4000?

Thanks,

david

---

Norton makes a 1K. That or a DMT D8 extra fine 1,200 continuous plate are good for bevel setting and removing chips. You can set a bevel on a 4K Norton but if it is a rough edge to start with it will take longer. Sandpaper (wet/dry found in auto parts stores) works but may be more expensive in the long run if you are going through a lot of razors. :shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Have you ever had a razor honed to shave ready by someone like Lynn or Glen (gssixgun) ? If the only straight you have shaved with is the one that you have honed you don't know what "sharp" is. Get one honed by Lynn or Glen and then you will have something to compare your own efforts to . Keep one or better yet two shave ready by a honemiester and get a few more off of ebay to practice on. Prep and technique are other possible issues but until you get a truly sharp razor those cannot be evaluated.

---

Yeah, I had a razor honed by the venerable Mr. Abrams.

The man ...the myth .. lol.

No offense .. I couldn't resist.

To me, that's my baseline for sharpness. I have a few blades that I self honed that is as sharp as the one I recieved from Lynn. All the others seem to fall into the category that I outlined above.

I dont understand it, really ... It seems that I can only sharpen some blades... and that's weird to me.

I believe you have received good advice so far. It's very difficult to pinpoint from a distance what exactly poses the problem with someone's honing.

It is possible that you fail somewhat on the 4K. The edge of a 1K hone will sever hair rather well. Such an edge carries little teeth that penetrate the shaft of a hair with ease, a bit in the same fashion as a serrated knife cuts tomatoes that much better than a smooth-edged knife of comparable keenness. The problem with shaving is that we want to cut whiskers but at the same time do as little damage as possible to the underlying skin. Hence the edge must be finer than that.
Upon refining your edge on a 4K, the first thing that happens, is that the teeth are honed away, because they reside at the outer limit of the very edge. That explains while the blade will start to appear duller very soon after you start honing on the 4K. But that doesn't mean you are at the maximum keenness level on the 4K.
I also think it's important to remove the 1K sandpaper scratches completely on the 4K before doing anything else.
I don't think Lynn's adage of "less is more" applies to achieving a good bevel. Even if the bevel is sharp enough, having the remains of 1K scratches underneath your 8K & 12K pattern, can get you into trouble. I think "overhoning" is sometimes just that: low level scratches that interfere with a good continuous apex at the finished edge.
The bottom line is: you need an extremely sharp edge off the 4K, that shaves arm hairs with absolute ease. If I understand any of it, it takes only few laps on the 8K (or a pyramid) to add some shaving comfort to that edge.

I think it is important to make the final laps on each hone very light and uniform.

Bart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by davyboy

Is the 1k paper, sandpaper? I am a newbie and tried honing Ebay specials and it takes forever on my Norton. Should I get 1k sandpaper to begin?

Or, a stone that would cut faster than 4000?

Thanks,

david

---

While lacking a stone coarser than 4000 I have resorted to using 1200 wet/dry paper. I cut a strip wide enough to cover the length of the blade I was working on and used some water to stick it to a piece of marble.

It sped the process of bevel setting up tremendously. It, however, was a PITA to work with because the edges wanted to curl making the surface uneven. So much for flat. I ended up taping all the edges and using an X pattern of stroke. Sandpaper will work in a pinch, but stones are so much easier to work with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whiskers

...
To me, that's my baseline for sharpness. I have a few blades that I self honed that is as sharp as the one I recieved from Lynn. All the others seem to fall into the category that I outlined above.

I dont understand it, really ... It seems that I can only sharpen some blades... and that's weird to me.

---

Is there any notable difference (or common denominator) between the razors that you can hone successfully and those you cannot?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sticky

Is there any notable difference (or common denominator) between the razors that you can hone successfully and those you cannot?

---

This is a good question ...

The blades I can properly sharpen seem to be on the hollow ground side of the grind scale.

The one particular blade in question I would estilate having a 1/4 hollow grind. I used tape on the spine because there were some very small chips on the edge that I worked out with 1000 grit paper. I didnt want to wear down the entire blade ... just the edge .. lol .

Also, this particular blade seems to have a small warp. To me, the warp isnt very serious ... but it's there. I dont this warp is playing a part in keeping the edge sharp.

I am going to try to work the 4k stone some more to test the theory of Bart. So far, the pyramid doesn't seem to be working for this razor.

What is odd to me is that this blade is sharp enough to plow through some major stubble. It seems that it isn't sharp enough to cut the stubble for the second (or subsequent) passes. It is almost as if it becomes dull during the first pass.

Back to the 4K for now ...

:shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whiskers

What is odd to me is that this blade is sharp enough to plow through some major stubble. It seems that it isn't sharp enough to cut the stubble for the second (or subsequent) passes. It is almost as if it becomes dull during the first pass.

Back to the 4K for now ...

:shrug:

---

Hmmm....

This will need advice form one of the Norton specialists, but that might be evidence of overhoning. I'm not entirely sure. It might come down to what I said about leaving 1K scratches behind.
Either way. Don't worry too much about it yet. Do the work on the 4K. If you have a means of looking at the edge with magnification, now is the time to use it. Remember to take out all 1K scratches.
Aim for the most even and light pressured strokes. Your best strokes of the entire honing session should be done near the end of your 4K work. Not that you should allow yourself to be sloppy later, but I know how much concentration it asks in the beginning. It's like learning how to write. If you learn how to do it well from the very start, no matter how much that slows you down, you'll be rewarded with a nice handwriting (and honing stroke) for the rest of your life.
For honing razors, it makes all the difference.
Coming off the 4K, the razor should be able to pop a freshly washed hanging hair, held by the root side.
If you're afraid of overhoning, you could do 3 or 4 stropping strokes on the 4K and end with the equal amount of regular strokes. Test again for sharpness. If it checks out, refining and finishing on the 8K should be pretty straight forward. I would test shave after the 8K. You can always go to the 12K later and see what that does for the edge, but it should definitely provide a decent shave after the 8K.

Good luck,
Bart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bart

I believe you have received good advice so far. It's very difficult to pinpoint from a distance what exactly poses the problem with someone's honing.

It is possible that you fail somewhat on the 4K. The edge of a 1K hone will sever hair rather well. Such an edge carries little teeth that penetrate the shaft of a hair with ease, a bit in the same fashion as a serrated knife cuts tomatoes that much better than a smooth-edged knife of comparable keenness. The problem with shaving is that we want to cut whiskers but at the same time do as little damage as possible to the underlying skin. Hence the edge must be finer than that.
Upon refining your edge on a 4K, the first thing that happens, is that the teeth are honed away, because they reside at the outer limit of the very edge. That explains while the blade will start to appear duller very soon after you start honing on the 4K. But that doesn't mean you are at the maximum keenness level on the 4K.
I also think it's important to remove the 1K sandpaper scratches completely on the 4K before doing anything else.
I don't think Lynn's adage of "less is more" applies to achieving a good bevel. Even if the bevel is sharp enough, having the remains of 1K scratches underneath your 8K & 12K pattern, can get you into trouble. I think "overhoning" is sometimes just that: low level scratches that interfere with a good continuous apex at the finished edge.
The bottom line is: you need an extremely sharp edge off the 4K, that shaves arm hairs with absolute ease. If I understand any of it, it takes only few laps on the 8K (or a pyramid) to add some shaving comfort to that edge.

I think it is important to make the final laps on each hone very light and uniform.

---

this is exactly what i was thinking as i had this problem a while back and it may have been one of Bart's post that i read. after i started to spend more time and attention on the 4k hone things started going much better. i hone on the 4k until it pops hairs off the arm with ease and then i refine on the 8k with about 100 laps or so.

the other thing that you might want to look out for and the reason i bought a 1k stone is that off the paper the edge may be slightly 'rolled' so to speak as the paper can bunch with each stroke just a tiny bit. this is something i read and it seems was happening when i used 1k paper. all this means is that you might need to spend some extra time on the 4k to flatten out the bevel, which it sounds like won't be a bad idea anyways :D

More laps on the 4k produced great results !

The method of Bart will be added to my bag of tricks.

Thanks for the input ! I really do appreciate it ... and my face appreciates it as well lol.