I know its just a picture but can anyone tell what this is its small 4x2 and glued to a piece of slate :thinking: it is kinda yellowish white.
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I know its just a picture but can anyone tell what this is its small 4x2 and glued to a piece of slate :thinking: it is kinda yellowish white.
Clean it up and I bet you will find a beautiful coticule under all the dirt.
Looks kind of like a pinkish coticule. I'm very interested to see how it cleans up. Be sure to post pics after all the grime is cleaned off!
+1. That's a Coticule.
what is the best way to clean it? The stone was my fathers who passed away in 1992. He moved to the US in 1960 from France. I called my mother and she remembered the stone but could not remember anything about where it came from, she said he had it for as long as she could remember.
I was sharpening kitchen knifes with my DMTs and remembered it was in a gun cabinet he built. I ran down to the basement and lo and behold there it was. I did sand it a little before the picture was taken.
The best way to clean it is to lap it.
I'd give it a lapping session on a DMT-C, under a running tap.
This will ensure the hone is flat enough for razors and it removes whathever it is on top of the hone. You can read about lapping in the wiki: Hone Lapping 101 - Straight Razor Place Wiki
The first part deals about lapping on sandpaper, the second about lapping with the DMT. I don't think you'd have much work on that stone.
Bart.
Thats crazy, I remember that stone, would have never guessed what it was though:shrug:. I swear man, the random stuff you come up with kills me:rant:. Lucky lucky.
Seeing as it's an old stone, maybe it isn't a slate backing on the coticule, but a belgian blue. I would try to give the bottom a light lapping to see. If the slurry is purplish blue, it's not slate but a belgian blue, which would be a nice addition also. :)
Thanks everyone I am looking forward to cleaning it up some. Never would have guessed I would have something like that laying around. :D
The backing looks to be glued on and the joint is too straight.
I'd say it is not a combination stone.
- Scott
That is correct. Ardennes Coticules started backing to natural slate tiles, because it is more cost-effective. In the old days, when labor hours weren't that big of an issue, it was cheaper to back with something that was very common and plenty: The blue schist that was mined together with the Coticule. It was only later discovered that the blue schist also has honing abilities. In the old literature about Coticules, I have found nothing so far about the Blue for honing purposes.
Bart.
If sanding, soap and water do not completely clean it then use some oven cleaner on it. Works great on stones that have old oil, grease, dirt etc.
Never had the need to try it myself but when Kees posted that he had gotten oil on an Escher by accident Howard stepped up and said he had used oven cleaner successfully on some of his.
sbrouwers , nice stone. Please post pix when he is cleaned up.
Ok I scrubbed the hell out of it with soap and water (a little cleaner but not much). I then went on to the oven cleaner, not much luck. I did lap it with sand paper from 320 to 1500 grit through 2 drawn grids it is now flat.:y I do not think the back is a blue I ran a pocket knife over it a few times and it damn sure didn't feel like any sharpening was going on, unlike the other side. I posted a full pick of it as well. So I guess my final question is would anyone take a razor to it?:shrug: Oh around what year did they start using slate on the back?
Not sure what year they started with slate. If you put some water on it and hit it with the 325 paper and the slurry is sort of purple it may be a blue. If it is slate it will be a dirty gray.
Looks like there is a bucket load of garnet in that stone, look at all the red. Nice stone!
The backside of that stone, aside from the color of the stone in the picture has BBW written all over it for me. I agree, if you lap that back you should know if you see purple slurry; unless it's a weird anomaly and it's a black BBW or some such thing. It could be my imagination, but I see this in the backside of your stone:
Attachment 21242
Attachment 21243
Chris L
The light colored side is a Belgian Coticule, about 10,000 grit, and the dark side is a Belgian BBW, about 4000-6000 grit. Both are natural stones and very good for razors. Laps each side to a 1000 grit finish and start reading threads posted by Bart in the honing section.
Nice catch!,:tu
To me it looks like a pink coticule ..
Thanks everyone for all the help. I talked more to my mother about the stone and she thinks my dad brought it with him when they migrated to the states in 1960. So if that's the case it came from Northern France. I do know for sure it is older than me I am 28. It does look to have some red in it as well as some yellow. What is the grit difference on the pink stone and the yellow? Well once again thanks everyone.:tu
Coticules cannot be given a grit rating like one would do with other hones. That is because they work quite different than the majority of hones that abrade steel by means of small particles that scratch the steel away. Not Coticules. Mother Nature has loaded this exceptional rock with "garnets". Garnets are a kind of very hard crystals that are roughly round in a faceted way. They vary in size between 5 and 15 micron (in Coticules) and they abrade the steel in a very slow and gentle way. They do leave a scratch pattern, but it is very shallow and wavy. If you release the garnets from the stone and mix them with water, we call it "slurry". It is done by putting water on the hone and rubbing with another piece of Coticule till a milk-like substance has formed. In the slurry, the garnets are free to spin underneath the steel while honing, and this speeds up the proces tremendously. Many Cotilules have a cutting speed compareble to a 1K synthetic hone, when used with slurry. It has been reported that Coticules with pinkish shades are often among the fastest Coticules, but you never know until you try. With a fast stone, the slurry will start to show grayish discoloration almost immediately, from steel entering the mixture.
In slurry mode, such a Cotiule is a superb hone for bevel setting and correction. The resulting bevel doesn't carry deep scratches and is ready for refinement on hones that can push the keenness a bit further. Coticules with slurry will prevent the edge from becoming sharper than a certain level. It is extremely sharp for a knife, but for shaving there still is some pulling sensation at that keeness level. At the same time, this behavior also prevents overhoning.
When used with water only (no slurry) Coticules are among the best finishing hones, but in that mode they offer hardly any keenness improvement. Their benefits lie into smoothing already keen edges. The resulting edges are nice to the skin and seem to discern very well between severing whiskers and catching skin. (decent shaving technique remains important though;)).
I have made a basic article in the Wiki about honing with a Coticule. It starts off at a DMT1200, but if your Coticule is up to it, you can easily replace the DMT by your Coticule with slurry. The article is here: A simple honing method with DMT-E , Belgian Blue Whetstone and Coticule - Straight Razor Place Wiki
Bart.
Hey Bart, thanks for the great article! I think that what
you have described is a pretty neat approach to honing.
- Scott
A small side-step full of 'mays' and 'coulds' you could or may not find interesting:
As you wrote your father came from the North of France, and conjecturing your nick bar the first letter is your surname - a Dutch name, meaning 'brewer('s son)' - I assume he may have been from Flemish France, in the present Région Nord-Pas de Calais. One of the most respected cutlers in this region were, and still are Maison Leclerq of Boulogne-sur-Mer, purveyors of fine knives, scissors and razors and all related since 1807. First misreading the stamps for Lecler Co, Bouloon Manah recently sold this razor made for them in consignment. Your hone could well have been purchased at this same House.
Bart, what you wrote in the post above was too good to let it get buried in the archives. I edited it into the SRP Wiki here with no changes to the text. If you want to take a look and change anything or delete it all. Too good to not put in there though.
You nailed it My family name is Dutch in origin. My father was born in Reims but the family is actually from Belgium. Thank you very much that is amazing research. I am not sure where in Belgium I will call my aunt and find out, she is the only one left in the states with my last name that is a direct relative. I know I have family in France and Belgium but not sure where. And also thanks Bart your post will help me a lot. And thanks everyone for all your help:bow
Well I lapped the dark side of the stone and the slurry was a light milky gray color. It was not purple or blue:( I just don't think it is a bbw oh well if not at least I got a nice yellow now.:D
It is hard to take slurry pics. This is about the best I could do.
It ain't a blue. Nice yellow though. Let us know how it works for you. Fun to mess with it with and without slurry. The one on the left is slate and blue on the right. Re-read Barts tutorials in the Wiki and play. :tu
Thanks JimmyHad The slate is identical to the slurry I got that helps out a bunch. I am going to try and touch up my dovo tonight on the yellow. Give it a go and see what happens:D
Well, i just looked at my Belgian hones again, some with a slate backing and the others a natural bbw backing. I still think yours is a bbw despite the lack of a purple slurry color. The pic of your stone shows that it has a "texture" to the surface pattern. True slate backing does not appear that way. The only way to find out for sure is to use it.
Working on my first cup of coffee,:)
I vote slate. Besides Coticule and Blue schiste, The Vielsalm region in the Belgian Ardennes is famous since ancient times for one other product... premium quality slate.
Note that Ardennes Coticule doesn't use Belgian slate. But I suppose some of the old Coticule companies must have used slate as well. Your hone kinda proves that, since it is older than Ardennes Coticule (the last operational quarry). Ardennes Coticule called "Burton Rocks" before Maurice Celis saved it from closure after bankrupcy. I'm not completely sure, but I believe Burton used Blue as backing stone. I have to check that with Maurice or Rob some time.
I've never seen a Blue which slurry wasn't, eh, well blue or purplish. Slate slurry looks very neutral gray, just like yours and Jimmy's.
Have fun with the yellow side,
Bart.
I vote slate too. But based solely on the color of the slurry.
I have a natural combo on which the "blue" side is black, or almost black. It is very obviously a natural, with a wavy and strikingly well-defined seam. I thought for a while that coticule must occasionally be found adjacent to something other than BBW, since mine was so damn black. But lapping it yielded the tell-tale blueberry slurry.
The gray side is nothing like any stone I have ever seen for honing. I figured it was slate but since I have never seen a blue before I was not sure. Now I am sure it is slate. I really to appreciate all the help from everyone who posted thank you all for the help:D