My Dear Coticule...

So today I tried my hands at honing my dovo tortoise again. After many many hours spent trying to hone the thing I figured that it needed two layers of tape to achieve the kind of bevel I could manage with my 4k at the time.

Today, I decided to try my coticule with slurry followed by the BBW with slurry then just coticule with water.

I did around 300 passes on the coticule with slurry, tested to see if I could shave hair...Did not pop hair but I could shave/scrape some of my leg. Following that I moved to the blue with slurry. Did about 150 passes on that, stropped on leather, didnt pass the HHT. I followed the blue with the coticule with plain water for another 100 some passes.

Stropped and tested on my leg again...Weirdly enough it still shaves but the heel area is completely dull as a butter knife.

I went back to the blue and tried some more passes (x-strokes on my 1.5" wide x 6" long combination stone)

Still no feeling on the heel.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Is the bevel not set or something? Not enough passes on the blue?

Seems to me like you have enough passes to have accomplished the honing. Hard to say without seeing what you started out with. It sounds to me like an issue of stroke and or pressure. Too much ..... not enough ? Hard to say and I may be wrong. I was wrong once before. If there was a forum member who knows how to hone in your area it would be great if you could meet and he could evaluate your honing and your razors.

When i hone i always hone with slight rolling x starting heel down first. put black marker all the way along the bevel. Then hone in x pattern and keep razor nice and flat and check to see were the marker is being removed. And i bet the very heel still has traces of black marker and even the very toe.If so hone with slight rolling x in x pattern check bevel and marker will disapear.Then carry on honing in that manor i hone like this every time if needed and it works every time. I have same razor i have honed and they are a very good razor i did'nt use tape you don't need it in my opinion. have you got 1k 4k ? i use the bbw plus yellow i have never set bevel with my yellow i have tryed but it takes for ever with yellow as not fast cutter fast but not rapid mine is hard to medium good for polishing and good with slurry for refining egde easily.Yours will probably be the same. I find heavy slurry on yellow can dull edge slightl if i use very light slurry no problem works very well.

I'm puzzled as to why you're starting on the yellow with slurry, then moving to the BBW then from the BBW back to the coticule with water. Unless I misunderstood. To me that'd be like going from medium/fine, down to medium then to polish.

The dull toe has a different issue going on there if it's markedly different in sharpness from the rest of the edge. Too much pressure on the toe when honing? Have you done the marker test to see if the blade is tracking evenly, completely and uniformly when honing?

Chris L

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Originally Posted by Chris L

I'm puzzled as to why you're starting on the yellow with slurry, then moving to the BBW then from the BBW back to the coticule with water. Unless I misunderstood. To me that'd be like going from medium/fine, down to medium then to polish.

The dull toe has a different issue going on there if it's markedly different in sharpness from the rest of the edge. Too much pressure on the toe when honing? Have you done the marker test to see if the blade is tracking evenly, completely and uniformly when honing?

Chris L

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the toe looks fine but the last inch of the blade towards the heel is the issue
i tried the marker test and passed that just fine
im using bart's progression starting with coticule with slurry
i don't have anything lower than coticule with slurry
i got some 800 grit sp
im wondering if im putting enough or too much pressure especially on the coticule with slurry

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Originally Posted by Chris L

I'm puzzled as to why you're starting on the yellow with slurry, then moving to the BBW then from the BBW back to the coticule with water. Unless I misunderstood. To me that'd be like going from medium/fine, down to medium then to polish.

Chris L

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I'll hazard a guess and say that it's Bart's fault. It's a progression he uses to great effect, apparently, and a lot of peeps seem to be trying it, myself included.
As for the dull heel on the blade. Did it just never get sharp, or do you think you actually dulled it at some stage in your progression?
As for the marker test. I'll chime in and say it's an invaluable tool. I used to just go by the look of the water in front of the blade as an indication of the whole blade making contact. Had a few razors with a dull toe. Decided to try a marker test. Low and behold, the toe was not making good contact with the hone. Altered my stroke to compensate. Razor got sharp. Most honing problems seem to have simple solutions. It's figuring out what the problem is that's the hard bit.

Connor

Edit: Looks like I type too slow.

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Originally Posted by Chris L

I'm puzzled as to why you're starting on the yellow with slurry, then moving to the BBW then from the BBW back to the coticule with water. Unless I misunderstood. To me that'd be like going from medium/fine, down to medium then to polish.

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Because all Coticule grit ratings on this forum always have been wrong. Yes, that is a bold statement.
I never liked grit ratings for Coticules, but if I was to be tortured to give one, I'd say that a Coticule with slurry is 1,5K. It delivers that kind of keenness. The garnets size is in that ball park. The scratches have a comparable width as that off a DMT-E, albeit shalower.

If the slurry darkens during the honing, and that really is the only premise, the stone can be used for the same kind of work as any hone in the 1000-2000 grit range.
There's no hocus pocus. The same principles apply as to any honing. If the razor has a warp, or the edge has a smile, this must be dealt with in the honing stroke. The bead of fluid in front of the edge can be used as feedback for a good stroke.

Comparing the resulting edge of a Coticule with slurry to that of an 8K hone, as often advocated on SRP, is far from reality. The edge is smooth, yes. But it is much less sharp than that of a well honed 8K edge, no matter what you do. If you take that excellent 8K edge to a Coticule with slurry for a while, you'll notice instant fall back of the keenness to "Coticule-with-slurry level". We've invented the term "slurry-dulling" for that. There are differences between Coticules as to where on the keenness scale they max out, when used with slurry.

If we did not have yet another use for the Coticule, it would just be a pleasant to use 1.5K-ish natural hone. Not a very consistent one, but that's typical for natural hones.

We can also use the Coticule with only water. The garnets stay inertly embedded in the hone, only marginally protruding the surface. It becomes a veeerrrryyyy slloooooww polisher. That's an advantage, because we can now use it to smooth out a wide variety of edges, as long as they're keen enough to shave well.
My skin likes the Coticule effect on such edges very much, and many others have testified the same, whether their edges were Coticule finished Norton 8K edges, Chosera 10K edges, Shapton 16K edges, etc...


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Dups,

Has that razor a smiling edge?
Does the fluid in front of the edge runs well up the dull part of the heel? Can you adjust your stroke to make it do that?
It sounds to me that your razor has a slight warp in the blade. Are you 100% certain that it did shave leg hair before going to the Blue? Many people won't trust your Coticule for doing bevel work, but from everything you've told me so far, I'm pretty sure that you have a fast one. If there are any problems, believe me, it's not your Coticule, but inconsistency in the razor or your honing stroke, or maybe both.

Either way, if (part of) the razor is not shaving arm or leg hair, it makes no sense spending any time on the Blue. The Blue is a slow hone, even with slurry. It can take many hours before it has removed the unknown amount of steel that needs to be removed to get the heel going. You need to shave arm or leg hair off the Coticule with slurry. That's your only chance. After that, it does not take much steel removal to make the edge a bit keener so it can also shave beard hair well. The Blue can do that with 50 - 100 laps.

I'm sorry this is not an instant success story for you,
Best regards,
Bart.

Is the heal passing tpt if not just keep honing the heal does'nt get that long on the hone so start with heal down first using a slight roll keep spine flat at the same time or just go up and down hone resting the heal only on the hone and when some progress revert back to x pattern.

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Originally Posted by Dups

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Still no feeling on the heel.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Is the bevel not set or something? Not enough passes on the blue?

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Use the marker and TNT until the entire edge, including the heel, passes both; at the same time. At that point you'll know you have just set the bevels. Don't worry about pass counts, use the tests.

The razor is a dovo 5/8 tortoise, so no it doesn't have a smile. Warped? I don't think so but maybe.

I've looked at few posts and the wiki for a better description of the famous rolling x stroke. I still don't quite get it. I get the concept but the execution is a bit harder.

Could I simply do some passes concentrating on having the heel on the hone during the whole stroke or will that simply create uneveness in the bevel and level of sharpness.

Since my hone is quite narrow I can't have the heel and toe on the stone at the same time, therefore if I concentrate on the heel the toe will suffer.

I thought the x stroke was supposed to take care of this..


I'll try again tomorrow

I'll keep you guys postes

big thanks to bart!

If you say the marker is being removed from the heal then keep honing untill it feels sticky sharp with the tpt. whatch heavy dutys honing video on the warped blade section i think 9 and watch him hone very carefully all the way throught the progression and you will notice he starts with the heal down first on his normal blade study his honing and try and practice i learn't alot from his viceos every thing his in there. go to video section i think hes on there or utube on hoining straight razor he also uses bbw and yellow you must watch all the way through i have watched at least 10 times.He explains why he puts heal down first as in his experiance the heal does'nt spend much time on hone and he had a thew razors that wern't getting sharp at heal so that is why he hones that way i do now and i find it works realy well with good consistant strokes and normal light pressure always.

still nothing....

I tried more passes on the coticule with slurry to perfect the bevel...It was shaving leg hair but only going down with the grain I suppose, When I flipped the blade over and tried to come up my leg it wouldn't do much. (passed the marker test)

I then moved to the blue with some slurry, did about 100 passes, no improvement whatsoever, I would even say that it sort of made it worse than before.

I'm absolutely puzzled at this point..

Maybe you should send the razor to Lynn or to Glen (gssixgun). They could take a look at it and probably see what you have been doing with it and give you some advice to correct it. Also they could get it shave ready for you.

That could be a solution, but I live in Canada and I don't really like the whole cross border shipping business.

I know it is a hassle. I have mailed stuff to Canada and received stuff. :shrug: Just takes a bit longer. floppyshoes is in Montreal and I am pretty sure kaptain_zero is in Canada. Not sure where. You could shoot them a PM and see if they could help you out.

Best case scenario would be if you could actually get together with someone who could show you what they do and watch what you have been doing. They could tell you how to correct your technique. You might even put up a post,"Any honemiesters in Canada?"

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Originally Posted by Dups

I'm absolutely puzzled at this point..

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That makes two of us.:thinking:

Normally, coming off the Coticule with slurry, the razor should shave arm hair without problems. It clearly isn't doing that. But it's doing something. If you had the edge downstroked, as I suggested earlier, it now doing something would mean that you're very close to bevel completion.
If you never downstroked, your results could be residual keenness of the razors initial condition, and you could still be way off, certainly if the razor still had the factory bevel on it, or if it was previously honed with a (few) layer(s) of tape added to the spine. I sure hope you didn't hone with tape yesterday and without tape today? (I guess not, but just checking to rule out all possible recipes for disaster)

Another possible thing that could seriously undermine all chances for success, is connected to stroke errors. Lifting the spine is a big no. And tilting down to the point where the razor slightly cuts into the edge of the hone is another possible error. Again, this all sound unlikely, just mentioning a few things.

That leaves us with the hone and the razor. The last thing I usually question is the steel of the razor and the quality of the hone. I reckon that you have shaved with the Dovo before, so we can rule the Dovo out as a culprit. Leaves us with your Coticule. The slurry turns gray quickly, you said. That is proof of metal removal. A possible problem can be that the hone has hard inclusions that affect the delicate edge of a razor. In that case the vendor should replace the hone. Rob of Ardennes has stated on this forum that he has no problem with replacing a Coticule if the costumer thinks there's a problem. Inclusions can always bee seen in the hone's surface. BEWARE: not all inclusions pose a problem. They know at Ardennes what should be ruled out, so in the vast majority of cases inclusions are purely cosmetic. But if your hone has a homogenous surface without any foreign artifacts, then you can rule out all the above as well.

The same things apply to the Blue side. I emphasize that is very unlikely that something is wrong with the tools, as Jimmy says, it usually is the Indian, not the arrow. But since no one ever honed successfully on the hone, we can't completely rule out the possibility of a flaw in the hone.

Normally at this point I would suggest trying a DMT1200 instead of slurry on the Coticule , and see if that changes anything for you.
This would all be much easier if we could sit together, with a pile of different hones for a while.

As for a final suggestion, before I'm going to start offering solutions that will involve sending razors and/or hones across the pond, here's emergency plan B:

Please follow this exactly as layouted:
-Tape the spine with 2 layers of tape.
-Run the edge gently over the bottom of a glass jar, as if you were trying to cut into the glass: 2 strokes.
-Test with leg hair and make sure it does not shave.
-Raise milky slurry on the Coticule
-Hone with back and forth, diagonal strokes on one side of the razor. Apply some pressure, about the same amount as you use to squeeze out a tube of tooth paste. Count the motions till 50 times back and forth . Flip the razor and repeat on the other side.
- Try to shave leg hair. If it fails, go back to the previous step. Keep checking and doing sets of 50 strokes per side till it shaves hair.
- Once it shaves hair, back off on the pressure and start performing regular X-strokes. Check every 30 laps with the TPT and/or the shave leg hair test.
- If the keenness stops improving, finish with your 30 best laps on very thin slurry.
- Please report back if you decide to try this approach and manage to achieve a good bevel. The razor should shave your leg or arm hair without any problem.
Once there, I'll try to guide you though the Blue stage as well.

Good luck,
Bart.

Great suggestions by Bart. Another question, have you had success in honing other razors with that hone or with any other hone ? Just trying to rule out technique as an possible issue. :shrug:

I just got the hone this week.

I just did the marker test again with a real 'sharpie permanent marker'

From I can see it seems that the bevel is set apart for a little section at the toe and heel. I'm trying the whole rolling X stroke but It's not as easy as it sounds :p

If I'm honing a dovo tortoise should I still angle the razor to do the rolling X stroke?

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Originally Posted by Dups

I just got the hone this week.

I just did the marker test again with a real 'sharpie permanent marker'

From I can see it seems that the bevel is set apart for a little section at the toe and heel. I'm trying the whole rolling X stroke but It's not as easy as it sounds :p

If I'm honing a dovo tortoise should I still angle the razor to do the rolling X stroke?

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If you've ever honed a pocket knife with a clip blade it is similar except with a razor the spine and the edge immediately across from it are always in contact with the hone. Depending on how bad it is you can also use Lynn's technique of heel leading with a 45 degree angle on the blade. The marker test will tell you if that is working. It is easier to do than the rolling X.

My coticule is falling appart!!! The coticule side of my stone is losing some parts. I just spent a long time trying to get it back to completely soft all accross. There still a small point toward the end that I didn't attempt at fixing.

I know they're natural stones but I'm expecting a bit more robustness .

Hey guys,

went back at it on the coticule/slurry and BB and coticule with water.

I tried to shave with it but as I thought the toe and heel were pulling quite a bit. The middle part of the blade seemed OKAY though. Looks like I'm gonna have to get the marker out again!

JF

The marker's a great tool for developing all kinds of honing strokes. Sounds like you're getting there.

I've just had a great shave of the bbw yellow bevel was set just rehoned on bbw slurry 75 yellow same no paste. so don't give up on your new hone once you have good bevel that is all you will need to do.

Sorry yellow water not slurry.

I got a DMT 1200 6x2 on the way. I can't find them in Canada but my parents are in Florida on vacation and when my dad called today I asked him if he could drop by a woodcraft store and see if they got any. I should have it soon!

This should take care of my bevel issue! After that I can use my Belgian blue followed by the coticule with water and the strop or cr0.

Can't wait! I've always wanted a DMT stone.

You will set bevel alot quiker on that i have tryed setting bevel on yellow with slurry on realy blunt razors with no bevel and it just did'nt seem to get there 1k norton straight there in maybe 200 passes 30 min to an hour. i would prefer the 1200 dmt good choice .

I really like the belgians but I feel like with my experience and with my particular stone a DMT 1200 would pretty much guarantee a good bevel. Bart has many coticules in his repertoire and I don't know if mine is up to the task for bevel setting.

Plus I could use the 1200 to lap the coticule and blue when they need some lapping!! :):)