Thread: My Dear Coticule...

So today I tried my hands at honing my dovo tortoise again. After many many hours spent trying to hone the thing I figured that it needed two layers of tape to achieve the kind of bevel I could manage with my 4k at the time.

Today, I decided to try my coticule with slurry followed by the BBW with slurry then just coticule with water.

I did around 300 passes on the coticule with slurry, tested to see if I could shave hair...Did not pop hair but I could shave/scrape some of my leg. Following that I moved to the blue with slurry. Did about 150 passes on that, stropped on leather, didnt pass the HHT. I followed the blue with the coticule with plain water for another 100 some passes.

Stropped and tested on my leg again...Weirdly enough it still shaves but the heel area is completely dull as a butter knife.

I went back to the blue and tried some more passes (x-strokes on my 1.5" wide x 6" long combination stone)

Still no feeling on the heel.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Is the bevel not set or something? Not enough passes on the blue?

Seems to me like you have enough passes to have accomplished the honing. Hard to say without seeing what you started out with. It sounds to me like an issue of stroke and or pressure. Too much ..... not enough ? Hard to say and I may be wrong. I was wrong once before. If there was a forum member who knows how to hone in your area it would be great if you could meet and he could evaluate your honing and your razors.

When i hone i always hone with slight rolling x starting heel down first. put black marker all the way along the bevel. Then hone in x pattern and keep razor nice and flat and check to see were the marker is being removed. And i bet the very heel still has traces of black marker and even the very toe.If so hone with slight rolling x in x pattern check bevel and marker will disapear.Then carry on honing in that manor i hone like this every time if needed and it works every time. I have same razor i have honed and they are a very good razor i did'nt use tape you don't need it in my opinion. have you got 1k 4k ? i use the bbw plus yellow i have never set bevel with my yellow i have tryed but it takes for ever with yellow as not fast cutter fast but not rapid mine is hard to medium good for polishing and good with slurry for refining egde easily.Yours will probably be the same. I find heavy slurry on yellow can dull edge slightl if i use very light slurry no problem works very well.

I'm puzzled as to why you're starting on the yellow with slurry, then moving to the BBW then from the BBW back to the coticule with water. Unless I misunderstood. To me that'd be like going from medium/fine, down to medium then to polish.

The dull toe has a different issue going on there if it's markedly different in sharpness from the rest of the edge. Too much pressure on the toe when honing? Have you done the marker test to see if the blade is tracking evenly, completely and uniformly when honing?

Chris L

Originally Posted by Chris L

I'm puzzled as to why you're starting on the yellow with slurry, then moving to the BBW then from the BBW back to the coticule with water. Unless I misunderstood. To me that'd be like going from medium/fine, down to medium then to polish.

The dull toe has a different issue going on there if it's markedly different in sharpness from the rest of the edge. Too much pressure on the toe when honing? Have you done the marker test to see if the blade is tracking evenly, completely and uniformly when honing?

Chris L

the toe looks fine but the last inch of the blade towards the heel is the issue
i tried the marker test and passed that just fine
im using bart's progression starting with coticule with slurry
i don't have anything lower than coticule with slurry
i got some 800 grit sp
im wondering if im putting enough or too much pressure especially on the coticule with slurry

Originally Posted by Chris L

I'm puzzled as to why you're starting on the yellow with slurry, then moving to the BBW then from the BBW back to the coticule with water. Unless I misunderstood. To me that'd be like going from medium/fine, down to medium then to polish.

Chris L

I'll hazard a guess and say that it's Bart's fault. It's a progression he uses to great effect, apparently, and a lot of peeps seem to be trying it, myself included.
As for the dull heel on the blade. Did it just never get sharp, or do you think you actually dulled it at some stage in your progression?
As for the marker test. I'll chime in and say it's an invaluable tool. I used to just go by the look of the water in front of the blade as an indication of the whole blade making contact. Had a few razors with a dull toe. Decided to try a marker test. Low and behold, the toe was not making good contact with the hone. Altered my stroke to compensate. Razor got sharp. Most honing problems seem to have simple solutions. It's figuring out what the problem is that's the hard bit.

Connor

Edit: Looks like I type too slow.

Originally Posted by Chris L

I'm puzzled as to why you're starting on the yellow with slurry, then moving to the BBW then from the BBW back to the coticule with water. Unless I misunderstood. To me that'd be like going from medium/fine, down to medium then to polish.

Because all Coticule grit ratings on this forum always have been wrong. Yes, that is a bold statement.
I never liked grit ratings for Coticules, but if I was to be tortured to give one, I'd say that a Coticule with slurry is 1,5K. It delivers that kind of keenness. The garnets size is in that ball park. The scratches have a comparable width as that off a DMT-E, albeit shalower.

If the slurry darkens during the honing, and that really is the only premise, the stone can be used for the same kind of work as any hone in the 1000-2000 grit range.
There's no hocus pocus. The same principles apply as to any honing. If the razor has a warp, or the edge has a smile, this must be dealt with in the honing stroke. The bead of fluid in front of the edge can be used as feedback for a good stroke.

Comparing the resulting edge of a Coticule with slurry to that of an 8K hone, as often advocated on SRP, is far from reality. The edge is smooth, yes. But it is much less sharp than that of a well honed 8K edge, no matter what you do. If you take that excellent 8K edge to a Coticule with slurry for a while, you'll notice instant fall back of the keenness to "Coticule-with-slurry level". We've invented the term "slurry-dulling" for that. There are differences between Coticules as to where on the keenness scale they max out, when used with slurry.

If we did not have yet another use for the Coticule, it would just be a pleasant to use 1.5K-ish natural hone. Not a very consistent one, but that's typical for natural hones.

We can also use the Coticule with only water. The garnets stay inertly embedded in the hone, only marginally protruding the surface. It becomes a veeerrrryyyy slloooooww polisher. That's an advantage, because we can now use it to smooth out a wide variety of edges, as long as they're keen enough to shave well.
My skin likes the Coticule effect on such edges very much, and many others have testified the same, whether their edges were Coticule finished Norton 8K edges, Chosera 10K edges, Shapton 16K edges, etc...


______

Dups,

Has that razor a smiling edge?
Does the fluid in front of the edge runs well up the dull part of the heel? Can you adjust your stroke to make it do that?
It sounds to me that your razor has a slight warp in the blade. Are you 100% certain that it did shave leg hair before going to the Blue? Many people won't trust your Coticule for doing bevel work, but from everything you've told me so far, I'm pretty sure that you have a fast one. If there are any problems, believe me, it's not your Coticule, but inconsistency in the razor or your honing stroke, or maybe both.

Either way, if (part of) the razor is not shaving arm or leg hair, it makes no sense spending any time on the Blue. The Blue is a slow hone, even with slurry. It can take many hours before it has removed the unknown amount of steel that needs to be removed to get the heel going. You need to shave arm or leg hair off the Coticule with slurry. That's your only chance. After that, it does not take much steel removal to make the edge a bit keener so it can also shave beard hair well. The Blue can do that with 50 - 100 laps.

I'm sorry this is not an instant success story for you,
Best regards,
Bart.

Is the heal passing tpt if not just keep honing the heal does'nt get that long on the hone so start with heal down first using a slight roll keep spine flat at the same time or just go up and down hone resting the heal only on the hone and when some progress revert back to x pattern.

Originally Posted by Dups

...
Still no feeling on the heel.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Is the bevel not set or something? Not enough passes on the blue?

Use the marker and TNT until the entire edge, including the heel, passes both; at the same time. At that point you'll know you have just set the bevels. Don't worry about pass counts, use the tests.

The razor is a dovo 5/8 tortoise, so no it doesn't have a smile. Warped? I don't think so but maybe.

I've looked at few posts and the wiki for a better description of the famous rolling x stroke. I still don't quite get it. I get the concept but the execution is a bit harder.

Could I simply do some passes concentrating on having the heel on the hone during the whole stroke or will that simply create uneveness in the bevel and level of sharpness.

Since my hone is quite narrow I can't have the heel and toe on the stone at the same time, therefore if I concentrate on the heel the toe will suffer.

I thought the x stroke was supposed to take care of this..


I'll try again tomorrow

I'll keep you guys postes

big thanks to bart!