Help! I've honed with a coticule, and I can't get sharp...

I think it's known that I'm neutral, apathetic even, on the argument of natural versus synthetic hones. Lately, I've found that a DMT8E, a Norton 4/8K, a Shapton 16K, & a Shapton 30K is all I need to get an edge that satisfies my needs. However, being enveloped in this hobby of wetshaving, I've managed to accumulate various hones discussed on this forum. I have a fondness for the Chinese 12K, and have had good luck with a Müeller Thuringian stone. Heck, the Dragon's Tongue that I got is doing alright too.

The coticule is a whole other story. I cannot use the coticule that I own to get anything close to a good edge. It simply drives me to frustration each and every time I attempt to use it – anywhere in a progression. My latest battle came from attempting Bart's One Coticule Honing technique. I had hoped this would finally show me the worth of this coticule. Alas, it was the latest failure. No matter how many laps I tried, I could never get it to start cutting hairs effectively on my arm or legs. It would catch a couple, but never would mow them down. I never made it through the technique, as the edge was not up to standard.

I've attempted to use the coticule with a heavy slurry, light slurry, and water alone. Nothing puts a keen edge onto a blade. I know it's cutting steel, as the heavy slurry was blackening. A lighter slurry and water only improved it, but sloped off rapidly (and still wasn't cutting arm hair sufficiently). I did so many first rounds (over two days) of Bart's new method that I lost count. I think I was in the mid to mid-high area (10-15 out of 20 rounds) when I gave up.

So, I pulled out a DMT8EE, did 10 laps, and could already notice the sharpness level improve. I had a nagging defect (small chip) in the edge that wasn't coming out, so I backed down the DMTs to clean up the edge, reset the bevel, and prepare for refinement. I completed a progression from a DMT8E, DMT8EE, Dragon's Tongue (learning its properties), lapped Spyderco UF (further experimentation), and finally completed with the Shapton 16K + 30K hones. Easy day.

So what the heck is wrong with this hone! I just want to know if it's my honing style and capability, my maintenance of its surface, or if I just managed to get a “bad” rock. :rant:

I'm posting photos of it to help out anyone willing to read this thread, and offer up some advice. :D

my coticule set
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...-strop-top.jpg

my coticule
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...cule-6x2in.jpg

my coticule surface -- dry
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...urface-dry.jpg

my coticule surface -- wet
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...urface-wet.jpg

It looks like a nice stone. Have you tried shaving with the razor? I know that my razor doesn't 'feel' all that sharp but it shaves quite nicely. It's a different feeling from what I usually shave with.

hey, if you'd like you can send that coticule to me, i'd be happy to see if i can figure out what's wrong;)

Same here!

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Originally Posted by Del1r1um

hey, if you'd like you can send that coticule to me, i'd be happy to see if i can figure out what's wrong;)

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Originally Posted by Dups

Same here!

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A similar idea has crossed my mind. :hmmm:

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Originally Posted by Dups

It looks like a nice stone. Have you tried shaving with the razor? I know that my razor doesn't 'feel' all that sharp but it shaves quite nicely. It's a different feeling from what I usually shave with.

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I didn't. :hmmm: Based on the feedback I was getting from TPT, and the lack of cutting on the arm/leg hairs, it would have been abyssmal.

Does a coticule's results on these tests differ that much from other hones? :shrug:

I'm sure you've read that not all coticules are alike. Lynn has posted that he has used a coticule with water only as a finisher following the 4/8 Norton. Perhaps trying a different razor might yield satisfactory results. I would be interested to see what would happen if you set a bevel on a DMT or whatever and than used the Norton and follow that with the coticule and water only. See if it improves the edge. In spite of the darkened slurry you may have a hard coticule more suited to finishing.

xChris,

When it comes to shaving arm hair of a Coticule with slurry, it depends largely on the particular stone, how well the edge performs at shaving arm hair.
As soon as the razor shows any responsiveness to the shave arm hair test, you're nearly finished on the slurry. You can try about 20 light laps with the X-stroke and see if that improves the test results. If not, it's fine. I just means that you hit the maximum level you're going to get off the slurry. I have several Coticules that will only barely shave arm hair at that level. The only important thing is, that you make sure that the entire edge (toe - middle -heel) has reached that level.

At that moment, it's time to proceed to the next stage. In my "one Coticule method" that would be attaching the layer of tape. In a more traditional progression that could be the Belgian Blue, or any other hone capable of refining the edge.

I've been making a video about my "one Coticule method", I only need to figure out how to upload it to youtube.

I'm sorry you ran into trouble with something I suggested. Why didn't you post in the original thread? I specifically put it there to assist with these kind of problems, and it sure isn't meant to be a "good news only"-show.

I still hope it works out for you.

Best regards,
Bart.

can't wait to see your videos Bart! I'm still not sure my slurry is the right consistency.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I'm sure you've read that not all coticules are alike. Lynn has posted that he has used a coticule with water only as a finisher following the 4/8 Norton. Perhaps trying a different razor might yield satisfactory results. I would be interested to see what would happen if you set a bevel on a DMT or whatever and than used the Norton and follow that with the coticule and water only. See if it improves the edge. In spite of the darkened slurry you may have a hard coticule more suited to finishing.

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Oh yes, I'm aware of variance in the coticules -- any natural stone for that matter. I'll try the progression that you suggest. If I recall correctly the last time I maybe tried this (Henckels Friodur 8/8), I got a similar result of a less keen edge coming off of the coticule. Though, I don't recall if that was simply based on TPT or a shave as well.

My lack of experience/time with the coticule is obviously showing. I'm potentially misinterpreting the feedback that I'm getting from the tests, and not following through to a test shave for validation.

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Originally Posted by Bart

xChris,

When it comes to shaving arm hair of a Coticule with slurry, it depends largely on the particular stone, how well the edge performs at shaving arm hair.
As soon as the razor shows any responsiveness to the shave arm hair test, you're nearly finished on the slurry. You can try about 20 light laps with the X-stroke and see if that improves the test results. If not, it's fine. I just means that you hit the maximum level you're going to get off the slurry. I have several Coticules that will only barely shave arm hair at that level. The only important thing is, that you make sure that the entire edge (toe - middle -heel) has reached that level.

At that moment, it's time to proceed to the next stage. In my "one Coticule method" that would be attaching the layer of tape. In a more traditional progression that could be the Belgian Blue, or any other hone capable of refining the edge.

I've been making a video about my "one Coticule method", I only need to figure out how to upload it to youtube.

I'm sorry you ran into trouble with something I suggested. Why didn't you post in the original thread? I specifically put it there to assist with these kind of problems, and it sure isn't meant to be a "good news only"-show.

I still hope it works out for you.

Best regards,
Bart.

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Bart,

I didn't post in that thread because I've been having problems with all methods related to the coticule. So, I didn't feel it was appropriate to post in that dedicated thread.

Rather, I felt there was something more that I was missing with this particular piece of earth. :D So, I figured I'd give you guys have a shot at pushing me in the right direction. If this doesn't get it, there will be some hones for sale soon. :fim:

Thanks for clarifying about the edge's cutting performance on stage one. Looks like I'll have to find a sacrificial razor to try this out again.

May I suggest you send your coticule to someone who has been able to get good results with one to help isolate if it is a technique or equipment issue? (I'm not ready to say I am qualified to do this yet...)

-Chief

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Originally Posted by BHChieftain

May I suggest you send your coticule to someone who has been able to get good results with one to help isolate if it is a technique or equipment issue? (I'm not ready to say I am qualified to do this yet...)

-Chief

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Good suggestion, and I was leaning toward this kind of thing.

The hone looks like on of howards? I had that problem when i first got mine i have athew now they all seem to do the job my slurry was to thick and i could'nt shave any arm hair at all 100 laps with water did make a differance the tpt should feel smoother and not grab your skin as much i use more sensative areas like further down my thumb you should get better feed back

The coticule is an interesting stone. I was having similar problems the first times I was using mine. I now have two, and my second one seems to be a little better, but it's a little early to say for sure. I'm not sure what's up with my first one.. I still have alot of side by side comparisons to make, but it seems I can achieve a keener edge off the second one.

Either way, I did get the first to give me a shaving edge, and the key thing that pushed me over the edge, oddly enough, was stropping. I would try to use the coticule with water after coming off the norton 4k/8k, or off the bbw with slurry, and each time, it would seem to kill the keenness (failing TPT, no longer popping hairs above skin). However, stropping on smooth cotton for ~100x would bring it right back in line and passing the tests. It was very strange.

I'd be curious if you find the same results... try either the one coticule honing method as Bart has suggested here - just move on when it seems to have maxed out sharpness, and when you finish the whole progression, even if it doesn't seem to be shave ready, strop that baby up on linen or smooth cotton (leather may even work) for 60 laps at a time, and see if you notice a difference. For me, the edge I had at this point was greatly improved over the coticule itself, and will shave ok, but I still found that I needed to hit another finisher or paste to really have an edge that is up to my standards.

Chris - I feel your frustration. I'm in the same boat. I've put the coticule aside for a while. I'm getting great results going from the Norton to the Chinese or even right to chrom ox. Hey, that's just me - I'm not the most patient guy in the world.

Jordan

just curious Chris, I cant really tell from the photos, but is your coticule tinted or shaded sort of green?

the reason I ask is that i have four coticules now, 1 pink, 1 yellow, 1 yellow/green, and the other is green with purple specks and yellow swirls. In an effort to follow Bart's "one coticule progression" ( I have one more shave to go and i will post my results;)) I found that the pink and yellow produced much sharper edges for me than the greenies did, as a rookie I know less than nothing, but it seems to me the greener stones are harder, and do more polishing than sharpening.

hopefully someone who knows more can shed some light.

I have four i find my coti with pink shades here and there cuts slightly quiker but they all seem to do a good job and they all seem hard you can tell which one cuts fastest by the colour of slurry but i could'nt tell which one polishes best to be onest. non of them create slurry on there own by normal honing so i guess they will be fine for polishing,

Chris: do you strop before you try the edge? IME you have to strop after honing before you do any of the hair tests or test shave.

I agree my razor will not pass hht after polishing or honing on coticule after linen and leather totaly differant 9 times out of ten passes easily btw coti looks realy nice.

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Originally Posted by Kees

Chris: do you strop before you try the edge? IME you have to strop after honing before you do any of the hair tests or test shave.

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No, I don't normally -- especially for the TPT. I do strop befor eshaving, but I was usually not getting far enough to attempt a shave. It's probably another reason why I've had difficulty switching to a coticule from my synthetic stones. This is one of the nuances that I need to remember when using this coticule.