Microscopes When Does Magnification Become Too Much of a Good Thing ?

I was doing a trade with a forum member involving a couple of hones to me. I wanted to make it an equitable swap and I threw in a razor. Nothing special but a good solid shaver. I had honed it and it passed HHT and gave me a good smooth shave. I did examine it with my 30x B&L stereoscope and the edge looked just fine.

When my friend received it he emailed and said that he looked at it with 200x and the edge had micro chipping. I was mortified. :gaah: What would the neighbors think ? :D So I told him (kidding) that if he only used 30x his honing would improve dramatically. Upon further reflection I came to the conclusion that my response, humorous intent aside, was actually somewhat valid.

Two recent ebay examples, this week I received a Revisor 8/8 from the mfg in Germany that was pre honed to shave ready at the factory and a Boker King Cutter that was also advertised as shave ready.

Upon examination under the 30x both showed anomalies/defects in the edge. I stropped and shaved with each of them on successive days and got excellent shave out of both. Each of them had passed HHT before the shaves with the Boker passing all along the blade and the Revisor here and there but not for the full length.

The Revisor under the 30x didn't seem to have the bevel set completely. At least it was not as complete as it would have been if I was honing it. Still it gave a decent shave.

In honing many razors for the past year + I have noted that I got adequate, sometimes even excellent, shaves from my early efforts and upon later examination they wouldn't be acceptable to me (visually under 30x) now.

So I'm thinking that 200x is counter productive and wondering if there is an optimum power with which to evaluate the honed edge ? OTOH, am I a slacker and should my edge look perfect under the 200x ? Just wondering what y'all think about this question and would appreciate hearing of your conclusions based on your experience.

I only own a stereo mic with up to 80x and I never even go that high as the eyepieces I need to use for that mag have a narrower field of view. I use the 40x for virtually all inspection.

My personal opinion? If my edges look like I want them to at 40x (which tells me everything I need to know) and they pass the shave test, I don't really care what the edges would look like at higher mag save for the sake of novelty.

I'm actually agreeing with thebigspender regarding resolution vs. magnification. I think he has a fancy Nikon stereo mic. I have a good quality high quality optic mic probably nowhere near his, but at 40x, my mic is in a different universe from the plastic Radio Shack 100x handheld I originally started with.

Chris L

I don't own one, I shave test.

My next door neighbour works in a jewlers and I have been tempted to ask her if they have any old loupes nocking around, I think it could be helpful to have a 30x and be more certain when I shave test.

200x might be a self fulfilling proficy type thing, it looks great under a 200x mic so you believe the shaves are better - shaving is so subjective I could see this happening.

on one particular razor I had I saw 2 monster pitting-holes through the edge of the bevel but it was a fantastic shaver, possibly my best


I sold it some time ago, pits right through the edge and all

fact is if the new owner looked at 30x he might see them
if he looked at 150x he would squeeze out a little hershey kiss in his shorts

there were only 2 pits, but it shaved so well that I didn't see the point in honing them out :shrug:

sometimes the microscope is bad, sometimes good

for example
all that talk about cerium oxide?

I'll be able to look right at the bevel and see exactly what is happening and how fast/smooth it cuts

I have a ridiculously cheap little microscope not unlike the radioshack one, 60x to 100x. I generally use it on 75-85x (est.) because with the limited focus control and the way I hold the scope to the edge, I get a repeatable/useful angle of the light reflection off the bevel. I do find the scope to be a useful tool. I don't obsess about what I see too much, but I do find it helpful to tell whether or not I'm hitting the entire edge with the particular stone, and to see how fast the stone I'm using is removing the previous scratches. It also gives me an idea of how well each particular finishing stone polishes.

I did get a 20x loupe too, one of the $10 or $20 ones or whatever it was on ebay. I don't like it at all compared to the microscope. I honestly can't see anything much better in it than I can with my naked eye and the razor right in my face. I'm not sure if it's a result of the magnification level or of the optic quality.

I am kind of curious how much better my scoping experience might be with better optics, but I'm getting by just fine without investing that kind of money into a better scope.

I have a very basic microscope thats for kids actually (Intel Play).
It does 10 x 60 x and 200 x but its so difficult to focus that I hardly use it.
Its interesting to look at your work now and then but its almost impossible to check every blade in its entire length and from both sides.
The time is better invested in honing.
Sometimes I use it when I want to see what a new hone can do.
What I can not see under the microscope is the last bit of breadknifed edge, cause the ankle just doesn't let me.
Thats something I can better see without or just feel.
Maybe it would be different with one of the radio shack type of scope.

I'd like to nip this in the bud.

I was at the Mid-MO meetup last Saturday. At one point I sat at a table with my microscope in front of me and Lynn honing beside me. As he switched between razors, he'd pass me the other for me to examine under the scope. I got to watch the edges progress during the honing. Though my scope's maximum magnification is 64X, I generally stay around 30X.

Lynn knows how to hone razors.

When he was finished with them, I could still see what could be considered "micro-nicking" on the edge. I honestly believe that for general honing evaluation, excessive magnification will just confuse the issue. Remember, the purpose of these razors is for shaving. If you hone a razor to straight line perfection, the only way to keep it that way is to oil it up and lock it away. If you shave with it, you are going to get "micro-nicking" very quickly anyway, so there is a point where making the edge absolutely perfectly straight during honing is kind of pointless.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I'd like to nip this in the bud.

I was at the Mid-MO meetup last Saturday. At one point I sat at a table with my microscope in front of me and Lynn honing beside me. As he switched between razors, he'd pass me the other for me to examine under the scope. I got to watch the edges progress during the honing. Though my scope's maximum magnification is 64X, I generally stay around 30X.

Lynn knows how to hone razors.

When he was finished with them, I could still see what could be considered "micro-nicking" on the edge. I honestly believe that for general honing evaluation, excessive magnification will just confuse the issue. Remember, the purpose of these razors is for shaving. If you hone a razor to straight line perfection, the only way to keep it that way is to oil it up and lock it away. If you shave with it, you are going to get "micro-nicking" very quickly anyway, so there is a point where making the edge absolutely perfectly straight during honing is kind of pointless.

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Yeah, I think a lot of my edges have that micro-chipping, micro-nicking, whatever you call it. But they shave smooth and are sharp as anything. I don't worry about that part. With the scope I'm only concerned about the shininess of the bevel :shrug:

Just a corollary here. If you took an air sample an magnified it through an electron microscope you would never want to breath the air again.

Too much of a good thing is not a good thing. I keep my mag work on razors to about 36x. I can see all I need to at that power.

I bought one of those $10 Radio Shack microscopes and examined every single edge I could get my hands on while honing... and to my surprise, discovered I couldn't get the scratch patterns out at 60x... tried everything.

Eventually I realized, if those long dead shavers got along just fine without so much as a jewelers loupe, then so should I?

I now use the scope to examine only problem blades.

I have one of the RS 60-100X microscopes too. I use it almost always at the 100X magnification. I can see the variations in scratch paterns usually, and more clearly at that setting. So, it's probably the limitation of it.

I think because I've been working a that mag level, I've gotten used to it, and have learned to interpret it. Looking at the same edge at a different level of magnification would probably give me a different impression of its state, especially if it was the only indicator that I was using to evaluate.

Just got a 200x led scope from Maplins £5.99. It has a little light defuser on the object end that helps evenly illuminate the object. it is also set to the exact focus point.
I find that after using it for a little while my hands get acustomed to moving it along the edge of the razor pretty well. I can definately see the effects of different hones scratch pattern.

I wonder how many of the microscope guys cried after letting those perfect pretty edges do what they're supposed to do: Cut through coarse beard hairs. :D

... or damaged them on the scope.

That little microscope from Maplins seems very uncomplicated.
Have to check and get me one.

I didn't read all the responses, but I'd be afraid, and would decline to hone someone's blade who has some crazy 2000x power electron microscope or 200. the edge of the blade looks like the surface of the moon for cryin out loud. Why in hell do you need to see your blade at 200x magnification, really. You can't justify that to me unless your some kind of metalurgist. So don't try it. Don't tell me you hone and need to look at the edge at 300x cause I ain't buyin it... What happened to the old shave test? At powerful levels magnification, a blade begins to look serrated anyway...

Jimmy, You can sharpen my razor's anytime! heck, I'd even let you tatoo me, you crazy B*******......
How's the weather in So.Fl? Looks like your getting it....

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Originally Posted by Hillie

I wonder how many of the microscope guys cried after letting those perfect pretty edges do what they're supposed to do: Cut through coarse beard hairs. :D

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Last night I took the Revisor I mentioned earlier and reset the bevel on the DMTE 1200. I then took it to the blue (with slurry) side of a green/blue natural coticule and finished on the green side. Shaved with it and it was very nice. This morning I took another look in the 30x and there were two micro chips that hadn't been there when I was done honing before the shave.

I will play with this one some more. My next move will be to start with the Shapton pro 2k and go up in the progression through 30k Shapton pro and see how it feels and looks. FWIW, I am satisfied that the 30x is adaquate for my needs since reading this thread. Thanks to all who chipped in.

Ooops! It's 100x not 200x :o
here it is 100x Microscope > Maplin

If you look at the right hand end in the picture of the microscope, you can see the cone shaped defuser/distance regulator. When you press the button, that cone is illuminated by an LED.

I have a lab microscope that I used to check my edges with while going through various stages of honing, but stopped using it, because the appearance of the edge at 200X had no relationship to the quality of the shave. Like Jimmy, I just use a 30X loupe now.

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Originally Posted by zib

I didn't read all the responses, but I'd be afraid, and would decline to hone someone's blade who has some crazy 2000x power electron microscope or 200. the edge of the blade looks like the surface of the moon for cryin out loud. Why in hell do you need to see your blade at 200x magnification, really. You can't justify that to me unless your some kind of metalurgist. So don't try it. Don't tell me you hone and need to look at the edge at 300x cause I ain't buyin it... What happened to the old shave test? At powerful levels magnification, a blade begins to look serrated anyway...

Jimmy, You can sharpen my razor's anytime! heck, I'd even let you tatoo me, you crazy B*******......
How's the weather in So.Fl? Looks like your getting it....

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Be happy to put a mark on you anytime you get down this way. :) I agree about the magnification. It is cool if you are into studying edges at that level but from a shaving point of view it isn't practical IMO. I guess if you learn to look at edges at high mag you'll learn what to expect from an edge that may look very serrated but shave well. Raining a lot every day here lately after a 3 month drought.

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Originally Posted by zib

I didn't read all the responses, but I'd be afraid, and would decline to hone someone's blade who has some crazy 2000x power electron microscope or 200. the edge of the blade looks like the surface of the moon for cryin out loud. Why in hell do you need to see your blade at 200x magnification, really. You can't justify that to me unless your some kind of metalurgist. So don't try it. Don't tell me you hone and need to look at the edge at 300x cause I ain't buyin it... What happened to the old shave test? At powerful levels magnification, a blade begins to look serrated anyway...

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That describes my problem about exactly: I have no beard!
Given that some of the geeks have a microscope at home, buy a blade
and later on post a pic of a 200 x pit in the bevel on some razor forum,
even naming the vendor (not me), I got scared!
But I got over it, hehehe
Just my 7 x loupe is a bit too bad.
Been thinking about a 15 x loupe but they are
a) rather expensive and
b) the frame is VERY SMALL.
So a 100 x cheapo thingy sounds just about right.

I think everyone just adjusts to the particular magnification level they use based on what they have, and over time they begin to understand how to interpret what they are seeing.

There must be some affect of how the optics and particular microscope play in here too because, to be honest, there's not a big difference between 60x and 100x on my cheap little scope. Stuff looks 'bigger' at 100x, but there's no extra detail there that I'm not seeing at 60x :shrug:

I would bet that if I had a high quality super clear 30x scope, I would be perfectly fine with that, but with these little kids scopes, it seems like you need to use the higher mag levels to get the job done.

It's pouring here too Jimmy, A good day to be in Honing.....I have a few blades I need to work on anyway....My Harley's collecting dust in the garage....

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Originally Posted by zib

It's pouring here too Jimmy, A good day to be in Honing.....I have a few blades I need to work on anyway....My Harley's collecting dust in the garage....

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I feel your pain, my bike hasn't moved for about a month.

That little maplins scope looks interesting, cheap enough as well.

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Originally Posted by 0livia

That describes my problem about exactly: I have no beard!
Given that some of the geeks have a microscope at home, buy a blade
and later on post a pic of a 200 x pit in the bevel on some razor forum,
even naming the vendor (not me), I got scared!
But I got over it, hehehe
Just my 7 x loupe is a bit too bad.
Been thinking about a 15 x loupe but they are
a) rather expensive and
b) the frame is VERY SMALL.
So a 100 x cheapo thingy sounds just about right.

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A forum member who used to post around here, Kaptain Zero, turned me on to this place here and this 30x loupe. Good field of view and quality optic.

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Originally Posted by pjrage

I think everyone just adjusts to the particular magnification level they use based on what they have, and over time they begin to understand how to interpret what they are seeing.

There must be some affect of how the optics and particular microscope play in here too because, to be honest, there's not a big difference between 60x and 100x on my cheap little scope. Stuff looks 'bigger' at 100x, but there's no extra detail there that I'm not seeing at 60x :shrug:

I would bet that if I had a high quality super clear 30x scope, I would be perfectly fine with that, but with these little kids scopes, it seems like you need to use the higher mag levels to get the job done.

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You've hit the nail on the head.

When it comes to optics resolution is king not magnification. It reminds me years ago I was looking to buy a telescope and they had these cheapo rigs that had all kinds of ridiculous magnification however, yea, Jupiter sure is big unfortunately its just a big blurr.

Another thing to remember is a magnifier will tell you that a razor it not ready for shaving but it will never tell you when it is. If you see defects in the blade you know you can't shave with it but even if it looks textbook perfect it still may not shave worth a damn.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

You've hit the nail on the head.

When it comes to optics resolution is king not magnification. It reminds me years ago I was looking to buy a telescope and they had these cheapo rigs that had all kinds of ridiculous magnification however, yea, Jupiter sure is big unfortunately its just a big blurr.

Another thing to remember is a magnifier will tell you that a razor it not ready for shaving but it will never tell you when it is. If you see defects in the blade you know you can't shave with it but even if it looks textbook perfect it still may not shave worth a damn.

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Agreeing with the spender twice in one week. Absolutely correct. Why? The mic is only showing the BEVELS and not the actual edge.

Reminds me of a post I did to illustrate the point that you can have absolutely perfect looking bevels but a worthless incomplete shaving edge. I think the post was "pre-crash" so I'll summarize with only a few pics:
Attachment 25973
I was sharpening a few chisels last year. Both the face and the bevel of the chisel are mirror smooth. This chisel should be wicked sharp. Look on.........


Attachment 25974
Perfect bevels but nothing even close to having an edge. This chisel couldn't cut butter. I posted these pics last year to prove a point that it's all about the edge which we really can't see to the level we'd need to in order to determine that we're "there" (unless you have an SEM in your basement which I don't!). Incidentally, I had sharpened these chisels for a friend and they were beyond abused when he gave them to me. I had to square up the edge on my grinder to that level before I could even start honing. These pics help illustrate why it's imperative that a bevel be "set" prior to moving up the grit levels and why those starting out often have so much frustration in getting nowhere by jumping up the grit ladder prematurely. In effect with those troubles, you can have a dull edge but polished nice looking bevels. Unfortunately the face of the bevels don't cut whiskers

Chris L

Yep, thats one of my problems with the microscope as I said earlier.

Ordered the 30 X jeweller's loupe last night. Thanks again, Jimmy!

just an idea for some to try, I have a pair of 10x reading glasses that I use mostly for fine soldering work and the like, but I found they work well for getting a good idea of bevel condition without too much eye strain.

Okay I'm a scope addict, I'll admit it.....:(


Now then, is it necessary?

No.

And yes!

I find I can gain an awful lot of information by shining a bright point source light,and trying to catch teh glint off of the blades' very edge. If the razor is nice and sharp, there will be almost no glint there to be seen. If the edge is a bit chippy, the glint will have dots and dashes to it. If the glint along the edge is wide and bright, most likely it isn;t actually sharp yet.

I couple that test with chopping off a few arm hairs mid-stalk to see how the edge is shaping up.

Since I do happen to have awhiz-bang super scope at my disposal I have been able to verify what I see with the glint test by looking at the edge at 200x, and have now come to a good correlation between what I see uder the scope and under the light.

When I use the scope, I definitely kick the edge up by at least 20-30 degrees, so as to be able to see the actual edge, not just the bevel in profile, as ChrisL's excellent post shows the danger of...

In the end I don't often use the scope as obsessively any more. Just for kicks, and to sort out the occaisional honing mystery problem....If it passes the glint test, and the silent HHT, it almost always passes my shave test as well.

:thinking: I am thinking I did almost the same thread about a year ago, :) great minds think alike Jimmy....



http://straightrazorpalace.com/conve...seriously.html

I just use a 10x these days to check the bevel. A 20x if I'm just plain unsure if there is any chipping left in the edge or on new razors I get to check which grit to start with.

I actually recently discovered the tiniest little chip, just barely visible under 30x, on my Wade and Butcher when I was admiring the edge under magnification (the things I do when I'm bored...). Normally I would work through my honing progression again to try and get that micro-chip out, but then I realized something. I shaved with it just the night before and had a fabulous shave with it, and no cuts or irritation!

If I just finished honing a razor and saw a little micro-chip like that in the edge I would keep working on it until it was gone. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, since it can cause problems, but it can always deem an otherwise shave-ready razor not ready simply by visual inspection.

What I'm getting at is that the most important test truly is the shave test. I shaved with that razor again tonight and it went very nicely, so I don't care if it fails the microscope test, it passed the most important one in my books. :tu

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

I actually recently discovered the tiniest little chip, just barely visible under 30x, on my Wade and Butcher when I was admiring the edge under magnification (the things I do when I'm bored...). Normally I would work through my honing progression again to try and get that micro-chip out, but then I realized something. I shaved with it just the night before and had a fabulous shave with it, and no cuts or irritation!

If I just finished honing a razor and saw a little micro-chip like that in the edge I would keep working on it until it was gone. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, since it can cause problems, but it can always deem an otherwise shave-ready razor not ready simply by visual inspection.

What I'm getting at is that the most important test truly is the shave test. I shaved with that razor again tonight and it went very nicely, so I don't care if it fails the microscope test, it passed the most important one in my books. :tu

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I've had a couple razors like that as well. I remember looking at one of my favorite shavers under the scope just for kicks and being horrified at what I saw (with regard to microchipping). I was tempted to play with it, but being one of my favorites and really liking the shaves off of it, I figured it was better safe than sorry and put it back on the shelf :shrug: I agree, when honing a fresh blade it's hard not to want perfection, but ultimately all that matters is the shave test.

Here is a quote from one of Lynn's old posts on what he looks for when using a microscope, "What I always try to look for through the microscope is to see if the edge is even in distribution across the razor. Next I want to make sure that the striations are tight and in most cases they do look darker through the microscope. I also try to make sure no shading up toward the edge and no micro chips near the edge. These usually indicate overhoning and the chips indicate that even if the razor is shaving sharp, it usually won't be as comfy as it should be".

Point being that a razor can have micro chips and still shave you. I have one custom that I bought used and it had a micro chip in it that I couldn't see with the naked eye but was there under the 30x. The razor is S30V stainless which has a reputation for being one of the tougher alloys to hone. I have another that I did hone and it lived up to it's reputation.

So I was confronted with the decision of whether to hone the chip out or leave it alone. Figuring that if I hadn't looked at it with the microscope I wouldn't have seen the chip I went ahead and shaved. This particular razor shaved well and I decided to leave well enough alone.

I could get along without the scope knowing what I know now. I am glad that I have it though and especially glad that I had it when I was first learning. If for nothing else being able to compare razors honed by Lynn, Tim Zowada and other honemiesters with what I was doing was helpful in knowing what a properly honed edge was supposed to look like.

I wouldn't mind having the ability to look at my edges with say 100x but the 30x is fine for my routine honing , checking out a bevel, examining a newly acquired razor, or seeing what the edge looks like when I am done honing, stropping and sometimes after a shave to see if it is still consistent and not micro chipped.