Barber says no!

So my barber used to do professional shaves in Italy...for over 20 years. I was asking him about honing, since I can't seem to get it right.

First of all, he said never hone leading with the cutting edge of the blade. He couldn't believe I was doing an x pattern with the sharp edge in front. He hones with the cutting edge trailing. Second, he said to never place the razor flat on the stone. He hones his razor with the spine lifted up slightly, at some random angle.

That makes me wonder - what would the difference be in leading or trailing the cutting edge? I've seen it written that you back hone when the blade is overhoned, by why not do it all the time?

The way that I understand it is that when you are honing you are removing old metal.
The old metal comes off leaving a new edge.

When stropping I visualize that the edge is being elongated or straightened. It seems to me that when you strop you are moving the blade opposite the direction of shaving. When I shave I visualize the edge as being shortened.

As far as honing with a stropping motion, it would seem to me that it would take a much longer time. I am a relative newbie, so I am just surmising.

Never ever saying somebody is wrong... because every time you say something like that it ends up biting ya in the butt...

Just keep in mind that the honing style that we use was not invented by people here at SRP, certain techniques were, but not the edge forward, spine flat, X stroke... This is found on multiple razor instruction sheets and hone instructions sheets going back 100's of years that were included in with the razors and hones....

Some people use a stropping stroke or spine first on the final few stokes on high grit finishers

Ahhh! Now I understand the origin of 3/8 inch wide razors on e-bay that started out as 6/8!

I am a barber and the guy i worked with is now 78 and he taught me to hone in x patern with the edge leading and his dad befor him also passed this on to his son. And that way works very well the first i have heard i'm sure lynn or some one must of tryed this and if it worked they would recomend it .

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Never ever say somebody is wrong... because every time you say something like that it ends up biting ya in the butt...

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I'll second that. I've had to eat crow often enough to know better.

I know that there's more than one way to skin a cat (but really, how often do you really need skin a cat? I mean, c'mon, I've never had call to skin one in all my life and I'm almost 46.). The real test is how well it shaves after he hones. It may be a very good way to hone, if anyone is willing to give it a try. Let us know how it comes out, please.

First I do not think that it is a random angle. Most professional knife sharpeners know the angle that they need by sight or feel. So it is probably something akin to that. As far as a backward pattern if you are removing metal what is the difference between a back stroke and forward stroke? They both remove metal right? Does the spine first create a more stretched edge whereas the edge leading creates a more compacted edge?

First, along the lines of what Glen wrote, Swaty made about 5 million barber hones, and they all came with instructions detailing how to hone a razor this "wrong" way.

Second, I've watched the Maestro Livi honing videos several times.:D If I recall correctly from his website, his family has been involved with cutlery for a few hundred years. Now, I'm going to assume he is an Italian who knows how hone a razor, and I really doubt that he and his family have been doing it "wrong" all those years.

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Originally Posted by joesixpack

I'll second that. I've had to eat crow often enough to know better.

I know that there's more than one way to skin a cat (but really, how often do you really need skin a cat? I mean, c'mon, I've never had call to skin one in all my life and I'm almost 46.). The real test is how well it shaves after he hones. It may be a very good way to hone, if anyone is willing to give it a try. Let us know how it comes out, please.

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+1. I too can vouch for the bitter taste of crow. If the method works for him then it must be a valid way to hone. As the honemeisters have often stated, there so many differences between razors, hones, people's experience, etc. that there are plenty of ways to "skin that cat."

Incidentally, I heard that the "cat" referred to in that old saying was a catfish. As the fishermen on this board would attest, one does indeed skin them - and it can be as much of a challenge to do as it is to hone a razor!

Cheers,
Jeff

Since I originally started out with sharpening knives, I'm used to that back stroke and often use it on razors too. It works with no ill effects.
I could even imagine (with a wide enough razor) that its possible to lift the back up up a little. Thats what I hardly do.
Actually you use the back stroke because steel is said to have a certain elasticity you can take advantage from in this manner. Saves on material.

If now someone says he's doing a certain number of strokes each side, then turn over - even that works. Sometimes its good to correct an irregular bevel even.

Just because someone is a "professional" doesn't mean they are experts at giving advice. If I had a quarter for every time an auto mechanic gave me auto advice that was dead wrong I'd have a lot of quarters.

Thats true.
Only the results count.

My barber was arrested last week for selling Meth, therefore I am not going to take his advice on anything...and I'm looking for a new barber!

Joe

I've not really experimented with this method, but I will say that you can get a ton of different shaving edges that will in fact shave your face. Especially other people's faces:rofl2: We've heard a couple stories here of uncomfortable barber shaves.

Anyway, I don't doubt that using this method he can get it sharp enough to shave someone, but I'm a little skeptical whether or not it's the sharpest edge and most comfortable shave it could be (vs other honing methods).

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Originally Posted by pjrage

Especially other people's faces:rofl2: We've heard a couple stories here of uncomfortable barber shaves.

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Ok now that was funny, :rofl2::rofl2::rofl2: "Other peoples faces" HA !!!!!

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Originally Posted by prhomme

So my barber used to do professional shaves in Italy...for over 20 years. I was asking him about honing, since I can't seem to get it right.

First of all, he said never hone leading with the cutting edge of the blade. He couldn't believe I was doing an x pattern with the sharp edge in front. He hones with the cutting edge trailing. Second, he said to never place the razor flat on the stone. He hones his razor with the spine lifted up slightly, at some random angle.

That makes me wonder - what would the difference be in leading or trailing the cutting edge? I've seen it written that you back hone when the blade is overhoned, by why not do it all the time?

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Rather than focus on the "never say never" bit, lets look at what happens when trailing or leading the blade over the stone. For the record, though, I think it is a matter of personal preference, unless you are doing something technically wrong, and in that case, it really doesn't matter at all!

****This observation is for using a hand held barber's hone only****

If you trail the blade, I think the pressure, however great or slight, will be focused on the spine of the blade, making the trailing edge run across the stone more lightly. That has it obvious advantages at higher grits, but for doing shaping or repair work, it would be slower. This method could also backfire by inadvertently raising the edge off of the stone as you make passes. There is also the argument out there that trailing the blade pulls the burr forward, helping it to remain "straighter".

By leading the blade, you put more pressure on the edge of the blade, which better ensures the edge comes into contact, and remains in contact with the stone. The biggest sharpening threat is rolling the blade by inadvertently raising the spine off the stone. Personally, I think leading helps to "clear out" the burr because it gets caught in the hollow ground area of the blade as it comes loose, rather than pulling it out from underneath.

On a safety thought, trailing the blade is safer because you are never moving the blade towards your body - especially your fingers.:chop:
This is probably the best and biggest argument in favor of trailing, not so much the technical or analytical reasoning. You don't want a shave from a bloody barber, or one with only 8 1/2 fingers.

Of course there is lots of room for argument over personal techniques sharpening, and I do still have 10 fingers (and 10 toes):D.

Atleast we know why all those barbers strop with so much sag that the strop hangs down to their knees. They've been honing with the spine up in the air!

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

Rather than focus on the "never say never" bit, lets look at what happens when trailing or leading the blade over the stone. For the record, though, I think it is a matter of personal preference, unless you are doing something technically wrong, and in that case, it really doesn't matter at all!

****This observation is for using a hand held barber's hone only****

If you trail the blade, I think the pressure, however great or slight, will be focused on the spine of the blade, making the trailing edge run across the stone more lightly. That has it obvious advantages at higher grits, but for doing shaping or repair work, it would be slower. This method could also backfire by inadvertently raising the edge off of the stone as you make passes. There is also the argument out there that trailing the blade pulls the burr forward, helping it to remain "straighter".

By leading the blade, you put more pressure on the edge of the blade, which better ensures the edge comes into contact, and remains in contact with the stone. The biggest sharpening threat is rolling the blade by inadvertently raising the spine off the stone. Personally, I think leading helps to "clear out" the burr because it gets caught in the hollow ground area of the blade as it comes loose, rather than pulling it out from underneath.

On a safety thought, trailing the blade is safer because you are never moving the blade towards your body - especially your fingers.:chop:
This is probably the best and biggest argument in favor of trailing, not so much the technical or analytical reasoning. You don't want a shave from a bloody barber, or one with only 8 1/2 fingers.

Of course there is lots of room for argument over personal techniques sharpening, and I do still have 10 fingers (and 10 toes):D.

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What is this "burr" you keep mentioning?????

I have never ever raised a burr on a razor unless I was intentionally using heavy pressure and circles or Japanese strokes to bring a warped wedge into line....
And I got rid of it using backhoning then went back to edge forward...

Keep in mind were talking maybe 10 times out of all the razors I have honed

A wire edge?

Barbers are no different than us folks. Think about how many of us use different techniques and different stones, etc. I have talked to many barbers who do things different ways too and still come up with a result that works for them. Ain't it a bootiful ting!!!!!

:rock:

Lynn

Sure is!
Just love to hear it all and pick the best for any given situation.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

What is this "burr" you keep mentioning?????

I have never ever raised a burr on a razor unless I was intentionally using heavy pressure and circles or Japanese strokes to bring a warped wedge into line....
And I got rid of it using backhoning then went back to edge forward...

Keep in mind were talking maybe 10 times out of all the razors I have honed

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A burr forms, however small, when a blade has achieved sharpness. It's what does the cutting. The object of sharpening is two-fold: the first is to establish an edge (get a burr) with the desired geometry, and the second is to reduce that burr by using ever finer stones. You may hear of residual burrs, which is the buildup of the burr caused by it rolling up on itself, like a tube wave. It is much more common in kitchen knife sharpening because you tend not to alternate strokes for the majority of the sharpening process.

If you are alternating strokes, the burr will be very small, and it will be wiped off when you turn the blade over, but it will always form on the top side of the blade.

To quote Sly of Sly and the Family Stone, "Different Strokes For Different Folks"
I couldn't resist...:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

A burr forms, however small, when a blade has achieved sharpness. It's what does the cutting. The object of sharpening is two-fold: the first is to establish an edge (get a burr) with the desired geometry, and the second is to reduce that burr by using ever finer stones. You may hear of residual burrs, which is the buildup of the burr caused by it rolling up on itself, like a tube wave. It is much more common in kitchen knife sharpening because you tend not to alternate strokes for the majority of the sharpening process.

If you are alternating strokes, the burr will be very small, and it will be wiped off when you turn the blade over, but it will always form on the top side of the blade.

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I think we are confusing semantics here...

But just to clarify ???? Can you see this "burr" at anything under 200x magnification????? I am talking about straight razors BTW not kitchen knives nor tools, just straight razors.....

In the much ballyhooed Verhoven paper, he does an experiment in regards to edge first, or edge trailing, and found much better results with edge leading honing. The theory is that the edge "sees" only the hone that removes the metal from the edge cleanly, and all the debris of the honing process therefore exits to the back of the blade.

When done with the edge trailing, all of the crap that gets honed off of the bevel before it gets to the cutting edge gets shmooshed under there and mucks things up.

Verhoven didn't use highly technical phrases suich as "shmooshin", and "mucked up", but I'm an engineer dagnabbit, and I gotta use phrases such as that to make me sound high-falooting.


I will also say that I don't hold anything that a barber says in any more regard than what anyone else says, and perhaps even less so, as these guys are expert at slinging the B.S. all day long.

Sort of like us here at SRP!:o

Seraphim, he must have cleaned his hone after each stroke then. ;)

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

In the much ballyhooed Verhoven paper, he does an experiment in regards to edge first, or edge trailing, and found much better results with edge leading honing. The theory is that the edge "sees" only the hone that removes the metal from the edge cleanly, and all the debris of the honing process therefore exits to the back of the blade.

When done with the edge trailing, all of the crap that gets honed off of the bevel before it gets to the cutting edge gets shmooshed under there and mucks things up.

Verhoven didn't use highly technical phrases suich as "shmooshin", and "mucked up", but I'm an engineer dagnabbit, and I gotta use phrases such as that to make me sound high-falooting.


I will also say that I don't hold anything that a barber says in any more regard than what anyone else says, and perhaps even less so, as these guys are expert at slinging the B.S. all day long.

Sort of like us here at SRP!:o

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I think you have found the best technical terms possible we should have a wiki glossary!:rock:

I have come to agree with your barber that leading the cutting edge into the stone is the cause of what so many guys report as micro-chipping. I now hone razors sideways - actually about 20 deg. off of perfectly sideways since the shoulder of the razor prevents the kind of side honing you can do with a plane iron. I show this in my DVD along with the jointing technique. Works for me and NO microchipping.

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Originally Posted by prhomme

he said never hone leading with the cutting edge of the blade. He couldn't believe I was doing an x pattern with the sharp edge in front. He hones with the cutting edge trailing. Second, he said to never place the razor flat on the stone. He hones his razor with the spine lifted up slightly, at some random angle.

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We can speculate whether HE managed to get good edges that way, but I'm absolutely certain that most of US would end up with butter knives if we copied him. For that reason he was wrong to give you that advice.

The basic method advocated on SRP is ... well ... methodical. It is based on sound principles that are easy to learn. And it is proven to work.

What your barber did reminds me of what someone here posted about the "Belgium" method of using loose, pasted strops and allowing hones to develop a dished surface. Sure, it's an alternative approach, you can get a sharp edge even if the bevel is rounded, but why use a complicated, rather random technique when you can do it in a simple, obviously effective way?

Who knows, maybe rounded bevels are superior, and the "other" way could be seen as an advanced method. But until someone offers to train you up to do it properly, I think aiming for nice flat bevels is the best way to go.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think we are confusing semantics here...

But just to clarify ???? Can you see this "burr" at anything under 200x magnification????? I am talking about straight razors BTW not kitchen knives nor tools, just straight razors.....

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I see where Glen is going here. With many tools you hone one side until you get a burr, then flip and remove the burr. With such a "large" thin piece at the edge of the blade I can see it rolling up on itself.

With a straight though you should never have a "burr" as I explained it above. We have all for the most parts seen many different magnified pictures of straight and I have never seen anything resembling a burr rolled up on itself. All straight razor edges should look like triangle when cross sectioned.

If you are honing a razor and seeing this type of burr you are probably using too much pressure.

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

I think you have found the best technical terms possible we should have a wiki glossary!:rock:

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Wiki glossary to the rescue! Now add those appropriate terms! :rock:

I have a picture of a burr from my reed knife sharpening book. It was made on a #220 Shapton Pro stone. I overdid it (purposely, I might add) so that we could get a good, clear picture. The burr is the saw-toothed looking edge at the bottom of the bevel. This was taken with a 7x magnification lens, and blown up. We got lucky because they photographer had no idea what he was supposed to be focusing on, and when we enlarged the pic, it came out good. If we blew it up any more, it would've gotten distorted. I hope this pic comes out ok here.

Some of those fibers hanging off are from the tissue I used to clean off the blade. The burr was so big, it was difficult to get all the fibers off it was like velcro and super glue!