Setting bevel with Naniwa 1k

O.k.. I have to be missing something very simple here.

My normal progression is the following.

DMT 600->BBW -> Coticule -> Nakayama ->Paste(Optional)

Well... I decided to pick up a naniwa 1k after i had a blade not get along w/the dmt.

Normally when setting the bevel on the DMT I use TPT to guage where I'm at and dont move off of it until i am popping hairs.

Well.. On the naniwa i never get to the "hair popping" point. but i'm guessing this is because it does not put the rough serrations in the lbade the dmt does.

I'm not sure exactly what i'm looking for before moving on to the BBW. I honed to what i thought was a sharp bevel using TPT and the end result was no good.

Changed it up a bit, set bevel on DMT, then did 10 strokes on Naniwa. End result was better than naniwa alone.

But it is just me right? the same progression should work fine w/ a naniwa in the place of the dmt right?

I'm guessing this is all me. Anyone else doing a similiar progression of natural stones after the Naniwa?

/sorry for the rambling.... i do that sometimes.
//feel like a moron

I am not using natural stones after the Naniwa Super 1K, but for me the key on the 1K is to get to where the razors feels pocket knife sharp almost really sticky sharp on the TPT and it is amost always good to go from there.

Lynn

As someone who never gets to experience hair popping (I'm not bald, I just have fine hair that doesn't pop--I always assumed my honing sucked until Randy's honing also failed to cut my hair.), I have to rely upon the thumb pad test (TPT).

Clearly since you have chosen to combine the DMT and the Naniwa 1k for bevel setting, you just need to adjust your TPT to accommodate the response to your new hone. I know when to declare my bevel to be set by the way the TPT feels. I believe that you just need to re-adjust your TPT assessment. Soon you will develop a better sense of when you have the bevel properly set.

I can't help with a naniwa because I opted for the shapton pros

but I can say that I've been switching hones a lot lately and it takes some time to adjust

keep at it and I'm sure it'll all work itself out

Thanks everyone. The plan wasnt really to combine the dmt and naniwa...

It just worked out that way tonight after some frustration... i just need to figure out this stone i s'pose.

Hey Bart,
Yes, that is the difference I have found. Either the DMT gives it a finer polish than the Nani, or its the serrations that give it the cutting ability. Either case, when my Nani feels like a sharp pocketknife, like Lynn says. It will however cut my fine arm hairs. I know my DMT is done when it cuts the fine arm hairs in a certain way, at a certain angle. Same thing with the Nani. Nani just feels more dull, and probably is. But thats ok, the rest of the Nanis more than makes up for it.

Ben I think it might just take a few razors for you to nail down how it should feel coming off that particular hone for bevel setting. Like Lynn said that sticky sharp is a good indicator, so long as you can feel what you're feeling for.

I'm curious to see how a progression without the DMT will feel on the final edge to a progression that includes the DMT at bevel creation stage

I have the dmt1200 1k norton and now naniwa 1k and the naniwa alone cuts very quik and gives a good bevel i just hone until it shaves arm hair the tnt realy drags and then after that all feels good just move on use what ever takes your fancy tpt is good but after several tests i find my thumb becomes imune to the rzor edge

bah.. i am really struggling with this stone. I refuse to give up on it though. i have a bad habit of buying new hones then selling them after a brief time.


I am wondering if the bbw just does not play well with it :(

Still assuming and hoping i am the problem though :)

Bart,
Is the razor capable of shaving at least some arm hairs off the Nani? It does for me, perhaps your using too much pressure? Or not enough time on the 1k?

When the 1k shaves my arm hairs in a certain way is when I know I'm done with the nani 1k.

edit:
And if all else fails, I suggest setting the bevel with the DMT or come really close to setting the bevel, and then do 10-20 strokes on the Nani to smooth out the bevel. Thats what I did until I learned how to use the Nani 1k.

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

bah.. i have a bad habit of buying new hones then selling them after a brief time.

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should frustration prevail I'd be happy to take the naniwa 1k off your shoulders. :)

I've heard nothing but great things, especially about the 1k, so stick with it if you can, and re calibrate your detection tests.

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Originally Posted by Leighton

until I learned how to use the Nani 1k.

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IME sometimes I start with an unfamiliar stone and it fits like a glove. Other times I have to get to know the stone. My guess is that you will like the naniwa once you get the feel of it.

I have just used my naniwas once again and i'm getting use to them i keep contradicting my self. Once lapped properly they are very smooth with plenty of nice feed back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leighton

Bart,

When the 1k shaves my arm hairs in a certain way is when I know I'm done with the nani 1k.

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Could you elaborate on the "certain way"? I've been moving off the 1k when, holding the blade at a 30+ degree angle against the skin, it starts taking hair off the arm or leg.

Is that what you're referring to? Or are you referring to popping or tree-topping the hairs?

Just trying to figure this out. . . .

O.K. i think i know what my entire problem was....

Aside from being a novice honer..


I lapped the stone one more time and it was like magic.

This thing load of swarf in a hurry now.

Still calibrating my thumb... I'm guessing i will be able to cut hair, but not "pop" hair like i could off the DMT>

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Basset

Could you elaborate on the "certain way"? I've been moving off the 1k when, holding the blade at a 30+ degree angle against the skin, it starts taking hair off the arm or leg.

Is that what you're referring to? Or are you referring to popping or tree-topping the hairs?

Just trying to figure this out. . . .

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Exactly. When I test on my arm hairs I use different angles at each grit. At the 1k level I use a 30-35 degree angle. Any shallower and I don't think it will cut at all. Maybe ATG after 2 tries or so. At 12k, I drop the angle to the spine barely off the skin.

This is just my test and how I do it. I've been honing for a while and it just lets me know if the stone is truly done or not. The true test is still the shave test. I also do the suspended leg hair test sometimes. ie, does the razor pop hairs off my legs?

One thing that has got to be considered with the hair popping tests is the differences in individuals hair. I know that at the Minnesota meet Randy honed a razor and was popping hairs off of his arm like rain while another member tried the same razor immediately after Randy and his hair was too fine to pop. Same with the HHT. Everyones hair is different. That is why Lynn stresses that the shave is the true test.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

O.K. i think i know what my entire problem was....

Aside from being a novice honer..


I lapped the stone one more time and it was like magic.

This thing load of swarf in a hurry now.

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no no

novice honer was the entire problem

a pro would have really lapped the hell out of it instead of babying the new stone

I made the same mistake with 2 different Shapton glasses.

yes, that means twice :gaah:

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

no no

novice honer was the entire problem

a pro would have really lapped the hell out of it instead of babying the new stone

I made the same mistake with 2 different Shapton glasses.

yes, that means twice :gaah:

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arrgh!

i'm about to throw all these stones on the classifieds right now :)

Should have never messed with what worked....

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

arrgh!
i'm about to throw all these stones on the classifieds right now :)

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Like I said, let me know... :gl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

arrgh!

i'm about to throw all these stones on the classifieds right now :)

Should have never messed with what worked....

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What ston es and honing method have you been using.

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

What ston es and honing method have you been using.

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Dmt -> BBW -> Coticule -> nakayama

i used that progression it works well and its easy. I use dmt1200 4k 8k norton / or 5k 8k naniwa bbw sluerry then coti water works even better just 40 laps 5k then 20 8k.

Just take a razor and dull it and try your naniwas from 1k try i went back on a dovo tortoise and did a 3/3 1/5 1/5 then 10 12k laps naniwa 10 .5 diamond paste then just 10 cr.oxide stroppped test shaved after three pyramids and patients this razor was smoothest i ever had onestly i was surprised it mat take more time but at least i no theses naniwas are capable of creating as good a edge as the belgiums. i was going to sell mine but not now keep working with them don't give up you will see i spent all night on mine they load up quikly keep them clean by lapping them lightly or good rub with hand in between honing blade will glide perfect. i must of lapped mine 5 x each seriously i found the same with my norton once they had ben lapped a lot they were totaly differant especialy the 4k side i think new hones need bedding in.

Hmm....

So i was home alone and frustrated with the naniwa....

So with a beer in one hand and a slurry stone in the other, i went to town with my coticule.

Never done this before.. surprised how well it worked on the 2 test razors.

• dulled on a glass jar.
• Set bevel using slurry on coti(never done this before, surprised how fast it cut)
• Refreshed slurry and watered down on coti.
• Used coti water only
• Nakayama Water only
• linen/leather

So... I'm thinking maybe this naniwa needs lapped a few more times.. If i can set a bevel on a coti, i should be able to set one on a naniwa.

I keep waiting for that "WOOHOO" post.

I think do your best attempt and finish it to shave test. That will help recalibrate the thumb.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

I keep waiting for that "WOOHOO" post.

I think do your best attempt and finish it to shave test. That will help recalibrate the thumb.

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I've tried and no luck. I think i am doomed to a world of loneliness because of this....

Just my viewpoint but I have yet to dull a razor on a glass jar or anything else before I hone it. I have enough trouble without creating more. :)

The best advice I got for learning the TPT was to use a fresh DE blade to acquaint myself with the feel thanks to Randydance. I still do it from time to time to refresh my memory.

I was talking with a honemiester that used to be around here in the past and he was telling me that sticking with two coticules and really getting to know them well over an extended period of time reaped great benefits for him here recently.

Just a thought, stick with it and learn the nuances and maybe you and that hone will start to click.

Dulling the razor is not a normal part of my routine. I am only doing it to test the bevel setting capabilities of the different stones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Just my viewpoint but I have yet to dull a razor on a glass jar or anything else before I hone it. I have enough trouble without creating more. :)

The best advice I got for learning the TPT was to use a fresh DE blade to acquaint myself with the feel thanks to Randydance. I still do it from time to time to refresh my memory.

I was talking with a honemiester that used to be around here in the past and he was telling me that sticking with two coticules and really getting to know them well over an extended period of time reaped great benefits for him here recently.

Just a thought, stick with it and learn the nuances and maybe you and that hone will start to click.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Hmm....

So i was home alone and frustrated with the naniwa....

So with a beer in one hand and a slurry stone in the other, i went to town with my coticule.

Never done this before.. surprised how well it worked on the 2 test razors.

• dulled on a glass jar.
• Set bevel using slurry on coti(never done this before, surprised how fast it cut)
• Refreshed slurry and watered down on coti.
• Used coti water only
• Nakayama Water only
• linen/leather

So... I'm thinking maybe this naniwa needs lapped a few more times.. If i can set a bevel on a coti, i should be able to set one on a naniwa.

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What was the shave like of the coticule slurry to water like?. I have tryed this lots of times and i find it does'nt always give me sharpest of edges shaves but not like razor could. with more experiance and practice i have found light and realy ultra light strokes fine edge can be had.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Hmm....

So with a beer in one hand and a slurry stone in the other, i went to town with my coticule.

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WARNING!!!

One should NEVER hone while drinking.....

You might spill your beer! :beer1:

Sorry - I know everyone is being serious here. My other remark was to use beer instead of water-- to take the edge off the stones.....:fim:

Seriously though, I have some Naniwas in the mail from SRD in order to satisfy my own sick desires. (not because of this thread)

I am intrigued by this problem. How many passes are being made on the Naniwas before all of this lapping needs to be done? I can't imagine the Naniwa 1K losing its shape or loading up that fast.

FWIW: the chef knife guys talk a lot about how the naniwa's do glaze with swarf, and how this can be helped by soaking them 10-15 minutes before use, and/or lapping.
I really want to give these stones a try but there's something about using the King stones I have until nothing is left that appeals to me, being my first stones and all. They're good enough for me, for now. (there's a 1/4 ton gorilla in the room and his name is HAD!)
You'll figure this out. go for a walkabout, vision quest, sweat lodge, whathaveyou, and come back with a fresh outlook.

coticule is working out pretty well so far. going to hone another 5 blades this way and see how they all shave. if 8 blades honed w/ a coticule bevel work, i may just say screw the naniwa..

I have to say the the 1k does load up quik thats what i thought but no problem a good rub clean it or a quik rub with lapping stone keeps tghings clean

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

coticule is working out pretty well so far. going to hone another 5 blades this way and see how they all shave. if 8 blades honed w/ a coticule bevel work, i may just say screw the naniwa..

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your coti must be a fast cutter. Out of all my hones i have to say honing on the belgium blue and yellow coticule with or with out slurry they are great and i realy think they are my favourite with no dout. But the edges of synthetic will gaurantee a sharper edge bbw/coti give very good edge and smoothest edge so its good to have both synthetic and natural. For maintanance all you will ever need is your bbw/coti.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

your coti must be a fast cutter. Out of all my hones i have to say honing on the belgium blue and yellow coticule with or with out slurry they are great and i realy think they are my favourite with no dout. But the edges of synthetic will gaurantee a sharper edge bbw/coti give very good edge and smoothest edge so its good to have both synthetic and natural. For maintanance all you will ever need is your bbw/coti.

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i have not tried setting bevel on a breadknifed razor w/ coti. but on a razor i dulled w/ glass, it took < 10 min on the 3 i tried.

i still have a dmt 600 for bastard blades.

That makes sense i have tryed on bread nifed and i gave up and hit dmt.