Options to improve keenness

Relatively new to honing, I've rehoned my 3 razors, and sucessfully did a full bevel reset on a practice DA. I'm using BBW and Coticule. My progression is: Coticule + slurry to tune up the bevel, BBW + slurry, then coticule + water (per the wiki). My honing strokes are coming along, I can get the edge in nice condition per my magnifier. My benchmark is will the razor shave arm hair if held a bit above the skin. I can get to this benchmark if I use tape at the last coticlue+water stage which sets a secondary bevel. Without setting the secondary bevel, it is just shy of where I want the keeness to be (it will catch a few hairs this way. Will still shave ok, but more resistance on ATG than I want).

I'm wondering if there are other options to improve keeness aside from inducing a secondary bevel. I want to keep the BBW/Coticle as the primary honing tools, and I don't want to use paste. Is there a hone that could be used between the BBW and coticule or after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?

Note, my full hollow turned out real nice without the secondary bevel, but my 1/2 and 1/4 hollows are not quite there.

Thanks
-Chief

I am not the expert here..so i will just give some of my own observations from using the coticule.

You should be able to "pop hairs" without the second bevel. If it is not quite there off the coticule, i'm not sure if it will be there after adding another stone to the mix.

You should be able to comfortably shave off the coticule, IMHO.

with that said.....The cheapest way would be a pasted strop...

/Disclosure: I use a nakayama also. will sometimes break out the .5 CrO strop too...

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Originally Posted by BHChieftain

Relatively new to honing, I've rehoned my 3 razors, and sucessfully did a full bevel reset on a practice DA. I'm using BBW and Coticule. My progression is: Coticule + slurry to tune up the bevel, BBW + slurry, then coticule + water (per the wiki). My honing strokes are coming along, I can get the edge in nice condition per my magnifier. My benchmark is will the razor shave arm hair if held a bit above the skin. I can get to this benchmark if I use tape at the last coticlue+water stage which sets a secondary bevel. Without setting the secondary bevel, it is just shy of where I want the keeness to be (it will catch a few hairs this way. Will still shave ok, but more resistance on ATG than I want).

I'm wondering if there are other options to improve keeness aside from inducing a secondary bevel. I want to keep the BBW/Coticle as the primary honing tools, and I don't want to use paste. Is there a hone that could be used between the BBW and coticule or after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?

Note, my full hollow turned out real nice without the secondary bevel, but my 1/2 and 1/4 hollows are not quite there.

Thanks
-Chief

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Using the coticule with slurry will produce a slightly rounded edge. The thicker the slurry the more round. The speed in which you thin out the slurry will effect how 'sharp' the edge finally takes. The faster you thin out the slurry the more strokes to get the proper edge.

If you are just resetting th edge you should not need a thick slurry at all, but now that you are trying to get back to one bevel it may take some.

I don't usually use coticules because of this reason, unless I have time to play with my hones. The keenness of the edge is directly proportional to how fast you thin the slurry and the number of strokes before you thin it again. Too random a process for me.

In summary: don't start with too thick a slurry. Learn to know when to thin the slurry more by observing the visual changes in the honing prcess, sounds and feel. Don't thin the slurry too fast. Test the quality of the edge w/ TPT or cutting arm hairs as you go.

Good luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BHChieftain

after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?


Thanks
-Chief

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yes whole war starts after coticule. Escher's, chinese 12 k,barber hones,Nakayama different names,hard arkansas,charnley forest etc. excluding pastes.
gl.

Here is a thread one the topic that you speak of. I am not sure if it made it to the wiki.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BHChieftain

I want to keep the BBW/Coticle as the primary honing tools, and I don't want to use paste. Is there a hone that could be used between the BBW and coticule or after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?

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The thread that singlewedge linked to above is the one to read. I am fortunate in a having a coticule that is exceptional and will get a razor super sharp. The BBW with slurry works as you would expect but the yellow with water only will also add keenness as well as smoothing out the bevel.

Bart said that if following polishing on the yellow you wanted more keenness return to the BBW/slurry then back to the yellow water. If you're getting parts of the edge to pop arm hair and not others I would say you're coming close but obviously not there yet.

The general consensus is that you cannot overhone on a coticule so going back to the blue with light strokes and using the TPT and the arm hair popping to let you monitor your progress would be my next move. Until the whole edge was evenly sharp. Then polish a bit on the yellow again.

Did you dull the edge on a glass jar before you began ? This was one of Bart's methods that I shied away from but have since embraced. It will give you an edge that won't give false readings down the line. Truly starting from square one as it were.

If you're reluctance to use pastes is based on wanting to get the edge off of the hones alone I can identify with that. I felt the same way and still do to some extent. OTOH, I have gotten razors from honemiesters who used paste and they were far sharper than anything I have been able to achieve with hones alone. Fortunately, for my tastes anyhow, the edge I can get off of the hones is quite effective and comfortable.

I wonder why you are reluctant to use a pasted strop. They seem like the easyest and most practicle progression for your application. In the Wiki you referred to it states:

"When used with water only (no slurry) Coticules are among the best finishing hones, but in that mode they offer hardly any keenness improvement. Their benefits lie into smoothing already keen edges."

This would indicate that the Coticule is not the final answer for the finish. And the BBW information states:

"The Belgian Blue with slurry also levels off at a certain keenness, but this keenness is sharper than that left by the coticule with slurry."

But is this keenness adequate for your requirements?
Somewhere in here, it seems, that you need something to produce the sharp edge you are looking for before you try to polish it with the coticule + water.

Ray

Matching the keenness you can get on a narrow secondary bevel off a Coticule with water, while omitting that secondary bevel, is not the easiest of tasks, but it can be done. Actually it can be easy, if you use a high grit synthetic hone and allow that to max out. Whether you'd still want to finish the edge on the Coticule with water after that is a personal preference.
If have long used a Chosera 10K for that task (and occasionaly I still do). It requires a decent amount of laps. As already mentioned in this thread, the Coticule (or BBW)+slurry edge is rounded to a degree, depending on the density of the slurry and the character of your particular stone. Unlike progessing from another synthetic, it takes a while before the roundness is gone and the edge itself starts progressing in keenness.
As a side note, several guys, who sent a couple of razors for honing have asked me to leave one razor finished off the Chosera and one off a Coticule, for comparison. Some prefered the Chosera, others went for the Coticule, a few could not decide which finish they liked best...

I think you could just as easily use any other high grit synthetic, yet I have no experience to back that up.

As mentioned, reaching that kind of keenness can also be done on the Coticule, but it takes a lot of experience. I am currently occupied with running extensive tests on 10 different Coticules extracted from various veins by the fine people of Ardennes Coticule. It strikes me how much difference there is between those specimens. Not in finishing abilities (at least not that my face can discern), but there's significant speed difference, and also the keenness level when coming off slurrly shows quite some variance, rating from "shaves my arm hair barely" to "shaves my face well enough". Also the feedback the stones provide and how to exaclty procede through the Dilucot (more about that in a second) method shows significant diversity. It takes me several honing sessions to familiarize myself enough with a Coticule to be able to successfully reproduce my regular results off my main workhorse.
What I have baptised the Dilucot method, is in essence nothing more than diluting the slurry as you go along. How many laps after each thining, depends on the Coticule at hand, the width of your razor's bevel, the steel's abrasion resistance, the applied honing pressure. It's a symphony and you're the conductor. As a starting point, I recommend augmenting the lap count by about half after each thining. This is proabably too much, but you'll learn to tune things later.
an example (I'd call this a pyramid, if the term wasn't already occupied:))
-regular (milk-like) slurry: till bevel is fully developed and keenness maxed out.
-add a few drops of water and perform 10 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 15 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 20 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 30 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 45 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 60 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 90 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 100 laps.
By now you should almost have plain water on the hone.
The lap counts should work, even on the slowest Coticules. In daily practice I do a lot less (without actually counting), but I use a Coticule that performs very well for the Dilucot method.
At this point, I rinse both the razor and the hone and finish with about 50 laps on plain water.
I use a calibrated version of the HHT and I know where I want the razor to be at this point. 9 out of 10 times it is. Occasionaly I have to reach back to a thinned slurry and redo the last thinings.

Cutting a secondary bevel, as in the Unicot method, is much easier, but not half the fun.;)

Keep up the good work,
Bart.

I've used the exact method you describe i found that starting with yellow slurry you must dilute once the bevel is set and then dilute every 10 laps using only two drops of water at a time once slurry is washed away do 50 laps on water using realy light pressure test shave if not good enough then go bbw light slurry then coticule water. I have found using coticule you are limited to certain sharpness and it can lack that extra keeness. What i do is use norton 4k 8k you could set bevel with coti slurry i would use 1k naniwa or norton dmt1200 etc. but in your case if you start with coti slurry use 4k 8k n then bbw s then yellow water it realy does work the norton gives you sharpness then the bbw/coti further refines and adds ultra smoothness. I no bart used 10k hone after coti s then coti water so you could get your self a 10k naniwa to use. also paste would possibly work although i no you don't want to but its cheaper and very efective i would 'nt go with out cr.5 oxide

I have a couple of natural combos and you can get exallant results but its a little inconsistant compared to man made hones for touch ups i use bbw light slurry then yellow water paste works all the time very consistant

I get the impression from all this that spending more time making sure you have a great (not just good) bevel goes a long ways towards a better edge.

I have been spending a lot more time at coarser hones and have found improvement with the final edge.

Ah, at long last the coticule king returns! Welcome back Bart, I've sorely missed your coticule expertise:D

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Originally Posted by singlewedge

Here is a thread one the topic that you speak of. I am not sure if it made it to the wiki.

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Hi,
I'm very familiar with that thread, and have had really good results with the secondary bevel using that method. Trying to see if I have an alternative to the secondary bevel, as I think it is easier to make a mistake and mess up the edge vs. a single bevel.

-Chief

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The thread that singlewedge linked to above is the one to read. I am fortunate in a having a coticule that is exceptional and will get a razor super sharp. The BBW with slurry works as you would expect but the yellow with water only will also add keenness as well as smoothing out the bevel.

Bart said that if following polishing on the yellow you wanted more keenness return to the BBW/slurry then back to the yellow water. If you're getting parts of the edge to pop arm hair and not others I would say you're coming close but obviously not there yet.

The general consensus is that you cannot overhone on a coticule so going back to the blue with light strokes and using the TPT and the arm hair popping to let you monitor your progress would be my next move. Until the whole edge was evenly sharp. Then polish a bit on the yellow again.

Did you dull the edge on a glass jar before you began ? This was one of Bart's methods that I shied away from but have since embraced. It will give you an edge that won't give false readings down the line. Truly starting from square one as it were.

If you're reluctance to use pastes is based on wanting to get the edge off of the hones alone I can identify with that. I felt the same way and still do to some extent. OTOH, I have gotten razors from honemiesters who used paste and they were far sharper than anything I have been able to achieve with hones alone. Fortunately, for my tastes anyhow, the edge I can get off of the hones is quite effective and comfortable.

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You might be onto something going back to the BBW+slurry after the coticule+water. On my full hollow razor (I never put a secondary bevel on this one), I did go back about 3 times (thinking I had the slurry thinning rate wrong), then all of the sudden I had an awesome edge. Been using it for 2 months and it is still super sharp.

Yes, I dull the edge on a glass before I start- I like that checkpoint.

-Chief

I understand skill plays role but if you don't have right tools you will not get result you like. example i give to you norton 4k and expecting from you make blade sharp as norton 8k edge? will you or anyone able to do so? of course not. it is just simple impossible. you can sit behind table for days your result will be similar 4k not 8k. You need to have better hone. That is simple . get Japan hones-nakayama or Escher and see how your edge 's keenness will change .Or you can go head just use pastes cheapest solution.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

an example (I'd call this a pyramid, if the term wasn't already occupied:))
-regular (milk-like) slurry: till bevel is fully developed and keenness maxed out.
-add a few drops of water and perform 10 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 15 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 20 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 30 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 45 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 60 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 90 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 100 laps.
By now you should almost have plain water on the hone.
The lap counts should work, even on the slowest Coticules. In daily practice I do a lot less (without actually counting), but I use a Coticule that performs very well for the Dilucot method.
At this point, I rinse both the razor and the hone and finish with about 50 laps on plain water.
I use a calibrated version of the HHT and I know where I want the razor to be at this point. 9 out of 10 times it is. Occasionaly I have to reach back to a thinned slurry and redo the last thinings.

Cutting a secondary bevel, as in the Unicot method, is much easier, but not half the fun.;)

Keep up the good work,
Bart.

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I bet I've been diluting the slurry way too fast-- <100 strokes for the entire dillution process. I'll try your schedule first, then I'll try stepping back to the BBW+slurry. Wanted to see how far I can get before going back to the secondary bevel.

-Chief

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Originally Posted by rayman

I wonder why you are reluctant to use a pasted strop. They seem like the easyest and most practicle progression for your application.
Ray

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Same reason I'm not using synthetic stones at the moment-- just a personal preference. I know pasted strops provide really good results-- I'm just having fun trying to master these natural hones.

-Chief

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I understand skill plays role but if you don't have right tools you will not get result you like. example i give to you norton 4k and expecting from you make blade sharp as norton 8k edge? will you or anyone able to do so? of course not. it is just simple impossible. you can sit behind table for days your result will be similar 4k not 8k. You need to have better hone. That is simple . get Japan hones-nakayama or Escher and see how your edge 's keenness will change .Or you can go head just use pastes cheapest solution.

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I'm sure I can get great results with nortons, pastes, etc, but that isn't my question.

I *have* achieved excellent results with just BBW and Coticule. I'm just struggling to replicate it (I can even replicate it with a double bevel, but my original question was can I improve keenness without the double bevel). Based on this thread I've gotten 2 ideas to explore.

I'm not interested in comparing the edge I can get with BBW/Coticle with other hones, etc-- I'm interested in getting the maximum edge possible with these hones.

-Chief

I played with the coticules untill i got the edge i was looking for. and they are apleasure to hone on especialy with slurry. Bart helped me out and i read his post and studied every thing he wrote. My best results .Was as follows yellow coticule very slowly diluting then 50 to even 100 on plain water getting extremly light on pressure i could pass hht after a good stroping i find you must do 50 linen then 50 leather. Also bbw milky slurry then coti water on a razor that did'nt need bevel tunning up gives great edge i never used paste on either because i did'nt need it i also added a ch12k to finish and that worked as well . I have had a thew pro honed razors and i have always added 50 bbw s then 50 yelloe coti and the shaves were better and smoother so for even touch ups i'd try 20 bbw s then yellow 30 and repeat if needed. Take yor time on yelloe dilute realy slowly i use bottled water and you will see a big differance in sharpness. Then after you can go bbws coti water and compare the differance on your next shave.

I got good results with secondry bevel but i prefer just one bevel as when it comes to touch ups it much more easy forc to get normal bevel back on track.

Why were on the subject it is said that the coticule with water only poilshes and is agreat finisher. So if i was to touch a razor up with coti water would that improve enough to have a keen edge.? my thinking is i have shaved of coti with slurry only and it shaves only just 100 laps on water and there is an improvemant quite a big one or using diluting method even better so the coti with water must sharpen a little ? is that right or not ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I understand skill plays role but if you don't have right tools you will not get result you like. example i give to you norton 4k and expecting from you make blade sharp as norton 8k edge? will you or anyone able to do so? of course not. it is just simple impossible. you can sit behind table for days your result will be similar 4k not 8k. You need to have better hone. That is simple . get Japan hones-nakayama or Escher and see how your edge 's keenness will change

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BHChieftain

I *have* achieved excellent results with just BBW and Coticule. I'm just struggling to replicate it (I can even replicate it with a double bevel, but my original question was can I improve keenness without the double bevel). Based on this thread I've gotten 2 ideas to explore.

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That is exactly what turned Coticule-honing into a mild obsession for me and lead to all the different experiments: the fantastic, yet originally elusive, results I got. I have been comparing these results to that off the Chosera 10K, and to that of my Nakayama. A few weeks ago, Seth (SRP-member Zethlent) was so kind to send one of his Nakayamas accross the globe, for me to play with. Seth had great results of this hone, and so have I. But nothing that would embarrass a good Coticule edge. They all deliver nice pull-free shaves. In my opinion, the differences reside in a narrow region of individual preference, dictated by beard- and skin-type, and personal shaving style. Getting the desired keenness off a Coticule takes a bit of a special approach, considering the versatility of the use with slurry.

I reject the idea that one needs a large troika of hones to sharpen a razor. There are many hones on today's market. Many of them are interchangeable.

Best regards,
Bart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

Why were on the subject it is said that the coticule with water only poilshes and is agreat finisher. So if i was to touch a razor up with coti water would that improve enough to have a keen edge.? my thinking is i have shaved of coti with slurry only and it shaves only just 100 laps on water and there is an improvemant quite a big one or using diluting method even better so the coti with water must sharpen a little ? is that right or not ?

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In my experience, it largely depends on the particular specimen. Many Coticules are incredibly slow when use with water only. After they have eroded the peaks of the given scratch pattern, they have hardly any abrasive power to remove the steel required for further keenification. Other Coticules have more abrasive power, even when used with only water. Raising the slightiest hint of slurry on the former ones can make a big difference. Also, small variations in applied presure on the blade, can make a lot of difference. There is no subsitute for getting acquainted with the tool at hand.
The "unicot" method (the one that uses the secondary bevel) takes a shortcut around most of these differences, because the narrow secondary will respond well to low pressure laps on water, even on the slowest of Coticules.
I you don't like to use the secondary bevel shortcut, for whatever reason, than you need to figure out how your Coticule cuts best (something you obviously have done already). I have not been calling them "adventurous" hones for nothing.:)

Kind regards Gary,

Bart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BHChieftain

Is there a hone that could be used between the BBW and coticuleor after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?



Thanks
-Chief

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this is quote from your original post? Am i missing something?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BHChieftain

Relatively new to honing, I've rehoned my 3 razors, and sucessfully did a full bevel reset on a practice DA. I'm using BBW and Coticule. My progression is: Coticule + slurry to tune up the bevel, BBW + slurry, then coticule + water (per the wiki). My honing strokes are coming along, I can get the edge in nice condition per my magnifier. My benchmark is will the razor shave arm hair if held a bit above the skin. I can get to this benchmark if I use tape at the last coticlue+water stage which sets a secondary bevel. Without setting the secondary bevel, it is just shy of where I want the keeness to be (it will catch a few hairs this way. Will still shave ok, but more resistance on ATG than I want).

I'm wondering if there are other options to improve keeness aside from inducing a secondary bevel. I want to keep the BBW/Coticle as the primary honing tools, and I don't want to use paste. Is there a hone that could be used between the BBW and coticule or after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?

Note, my full hollow turned out real nice without the secondary bevel, but my 1/2 and 1/4 hollows are not quite there.

Thanks
-Chief

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BHChieftain

I'm not interested in comparing the edge I can get with BBW/Coticle with other hones, etc-- I'm interested in getting the maximum edge possible with these hones.

-Chief

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??? this is your last response

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

this is quote from your original post? Am i missing something?

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I'm sorry, I should clarify that-- I would look at another hone to be used in conjunction with BBW and Coticule, but not to replace them. I thought your post was talking about using an entirely different honing sytem. I apologize if I mis-interpreted your post!

Thanks,
-Chief

I did find that with my small kosher i took it to a dull razor with water only and i could feel the edge forming and i actualy said to my self this seems to be bringing edge back but i stopped and used another hone i wanted to try.

have you thought a bout gettig a 4knorton or maybe 5k naniwa to use before then bbwcoti i'm sure that would work. it has for me if you watch heavy dutys honing progression he goes 4k 8k bbw slurry yellow water. I 've done this many times and it realy works well infact it never failed yet

Well, I'm happy to report I hit my benchmark keenness with a single bevel, and using just the coticule to boot! This razor is pretty beefy-- it is a Livi regrind, 1/2 hollow. Despite good results on my full hollow using coti+slurry, BBW+slurry, coti+water, I was not able to get the Livi where I wanted it.

It took me awhile-- but I think I've figured out where I've been going south.

Bart, I followed your thinning schedule using the coticule only (no BBW), but I found that when I got past 20 laps, the slurry was thickening... and I was waiting too long before adding some water-- so I'd end up thinning the slurry, then it would thicken as I honed, then I would thin it out again. This didn't work... razor would not pop arm hair when held 1/4 above the skin (my keenness benchmark).

I stepped back to a thinner slurry, and would add a drop occasionally during the thinning schedule to try to keep the thickness constant (say I was at 40 laps before the next thinning-- I would add about 1 drop every 10 laps, until I got to 40, then I would thin by adding 2-3 drops, and start over). I got to where I thought the slurry was pretty thinned out, then switched to coticule+water only. Still no dice... it was sharper, I got a decent shave with it, but still didn't pass my keenness benchmark.

Third time around-- started with a medium slurry, added 2 drops of water every 10 laps. Every now and then I'd throw in an additional drop or two to keep the slurry well hydrated. Got to where I thought the slurry was pretty thinned out (and where I stopped last time), but this time I decided to JUST KEEP GOING. I must have added an additional 200 strokes, thinning and thinning and thinning every 10. Rinsed, then did 100 with just coticule + water, and BAM! Got it!

I'm real excited about this-- I started out this thread thinking I needed to add another hone on top of the BBW and Coti, now I'm down to 1 rock. I'm sure I ended up doing way more strokes than necessary, but now I know I can get to where I want to be.

Thanks for the tips!

-Chief

Great work, Chief.

Dilucot is something every one (willing to take the scenery route) has to figure out on his own. I am so happy you crossed that bridge. It's really like playing a musical instrument. There's no substitute for practice, and one day you ask yourself what you found so difficult about it in the beginning.

Congrats,

Bart.

i've dulled a couple of razors today and honed them right up with slurry and diluting method and perfect i have got my self a 8x3 select kosher ariving to morrow i will try it out. So my slurry does'nt run out or start to get thick i hone well before the end of hone that way you keep your slurry on the surface and not pushing it of the hone as much.I also find you have to get it right before you move on making sure the bevel is good and your thumb grips it nicley if it does that all the way along the egde thats when start my diluting method and then the sharpening realy begins at the end of honing i take a chest hair and if it just passes i no once stropped my razor will pop hht very easily and then for real keenes i do 10 laps chr.5 optional then my edge mows hair down shave may not last as long but i just touch up on coticule and its fine. I've tryed dry finishing on one razor today seemed to work as well passed hht easier straight of hone i tested hht wet coti then 15 laps dry and hht was better.

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i have got my self a 8x3 select kosher ariving to morrow

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OK, that does it! The split second I get a new job, I'm searching around for one of these things!:) This sounds like too much fun not to try!

just got my 8x3 today i've tryed a couple of razors on it and it cuts probably like a 4k with a good slurry to 5k 7k quik enought to rescue a dull razor polishes nicley as they all do i have finished on dry then cr.5 then stropped . My mate also used it on a blade he was having probs with he did the slurry diluting trick its his first time he has used a coticule.i stroped it on my livii ch.5 then the leather side has i did'nt want any accidents on my livi loom strop . He phoned me up tonight and said the shave was that smooth he did'nt think the razor was working but it was . He said it is the best and smoothest shave he has had now he wants a coticule. I remember my first time and the shaves are smooth then you get use to that and stop apreciating how good the coticule is.

Send pics of your new rock!

-Chief

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Originally Posted by BHChieftain

Send pics of your new rock!

-Chief

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I will send to morrow