Thread: Options to improve keenness

Relatively new to honing, I've rehoned my 3 razors, and sucessfully did a full bevel reset on a practice DA. I'm using BBW and Coticule. My progression is: Coticule + slurry to tune up the bevel, BBW + slurry, then coticule + water (per the wiki). My honing strokes are coming along, I can get the edge in nice condition per my magnifier. My benchmark is will the razor shave arm hair if held a bit above the skin. I can get to this benchmark if I use tape at the last coticlue+water stage which sets a secondary bevel. Without setting the secondary bevel, it is just shy of where I want the keeness to be (it will catch a few hairs this way. Will still shave ok, but more resistance on ATG than I want).

I'm wondering if there are other options to improve keeness aside from inducing a secondary bevel. I want to keep the BBW/Coticle as the primary honing tools, and I don't want to use paste. Is there a hone that could be used between the BBW and coticule or after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?

Note, my full hollow turned out real nice without the secondary bevel, but my 1/2 and 1/4 hollows are not quite there.

Thanks
-Chief

I am not the expert here..so i will just give some of my own observations from using the coticule.

You should be able to "pop hairs" without the second bevel. If it is not quite there off the coticule, i'm not sure if it will be there after adding another stone to the mix.

You should be able to comfortably shave off the coticule, IMHO.

with that said.....The cheapest way would be a pasted strop...

/Disclosure: I use a nakayama also. will sometimes break out the .5 CrO strop too...

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

Relatively new to honing, I've rehoned my 3 razors, and sucessfully did a full bevel reset on a practice DA. I'm using BBW and Coticule. My progression is: Coticule + slurry to tune up the bevel, BBW + slurry, then coticule + water (per the wiki). My honing strokes are coming along, I can get the edge in nice condition per my magnifier. My benchmark is will the razor shave arm hair if held a bit above the skin. I can get to this benchmark if I use tape at the last coticlue+water stage which sets a secondary bevel. Without setting the secondary bevel, it is just shy of where I want the keeness to be (it will catch a few hairs this way. Will still shave ok, but more resistance on ATG than I want).

I'm wondering if there are other options to improve keeness aside from inducing a secondary bevel. I want to keep the BBW/Coticle as the primary honing tools, and I don't want to use paste. Is there a hone that could be used between the BBW and coticule or after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?

Note, my full hollow turned out real nice without the secondary bevel, but my 1/2 and 1/4 hollows are not quite there.

Thanks
-Chief

Using the coticule with slurry will produce a slightly rounded edge. The thicker the slurry the more round. The speed in which you thin out the slurry will effect how 'sharp' the edge finally takes. The faster you thin out the slurry the more strokes to get the proper edge.

If you are just resetting th edge you should not need a thick slurry at all, but now that you are trying to get back to one bevel it may take some.

I don't usually use coticules because of this reason, unless I have time to play with my hones. The keenness of the edge is directly proportional to how fast you thin the slurry and the number of strokes before you thin it again. Too random a process for me.

In summary: don't start with too thick a slurry. Learn to know when to thin the slurry more by observing the visual changes in the honing prcess, sounds and feel. Don't thin the slurry too fast. Test the quality of the edge w/ TPT or cutting arm hairs as you go.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?


Thanks
-Chief

yes whole war starts after coticule. Escher's, chinese 12 k,barber hones,Nakayama different names,hard arkansas,charnley forest etc. excluding pastes.
gl.

Here is a thread one the topic that you speak of. I am not sure if it made it to the wiki.

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

I want to keep the BBW/Coticle as the primary honing tools, and I don't want to use paste. Is there a hone that could be used between the BBW and coticule or after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?

The thread that singlewedge linked to above is the one to read. I am fortunate in a having a coticule that is exceptional and will get a razor super sharp. The BBW with slurry works as you would expect but the yellow with water only will also add keenness as well as smoothing out the bevel.

Bart said that if following polishing on the yellow you wanted more keenness return to the BBW/slurry then back to the yellow water. If you're getting parts of the edge to pop arm hair and not others I would say you're coming close but obviously not there yet.

The general consensus is that you cannot overhone on a coticule so going back to the blue with light strokes and using the TPT and the arm hair popping to let you monitor your progress would be my next move. Until the whole edge was evenly sharp. Then polish a bit on the yellow again.

Did you dull the edge on a glass jar before you began ? This was one of Bart's methods that I shied away from but have since embraced. It will give you an edge that won't give false readings down the line. Truly starting from square one as it were.

If you're reluctance to use pastes is based on wanting to get the edge off of the hones alone I can identify with that. I felt the same way and still do to some extent. OTOH, I have gotten razors from honemiesters who used paste and they were far sharper than anything I have been able to achieve with hones alone. Fortunately, for my tastes anyhow, the edge I can get off of the hones is quite effective and comfortable.

I wonder why you are reluctant to use a pasted strop. They seem like the easyest and most practicle progression for your application. In the Wiki you referred to it states:

"When used with water only (no slurry) Coticules are among the best finishing hones, but in that mode they offer hardly any keenness improvement. Their benefits lie into smoothing already keen edges."

This would indicate that the Coticule is not the final answer for the finish. And the BBW information states:

"The Belgian Blue with slurry also levels off at a certain keenness, but this keenness is sharper than that left by the coticule with slurry."

But is this keenness adequate for your requirements?
Somewhere in here, it seems, that you need something to produce the sharp edge you are looking for before you try to polish it with the coticule + water.

Ray

Matching the keenness you can get on a narrow secondary bevel off a Coticule with water, while omitting that secondary bevel, is not the easiest of tasks, but it can be done. Actually it can be easy, if you use a high grit synthetic hone and allow that to max out. Whether you'd still want to finish the edge on the Coticule with water after that is a personal preference.
If have long used a Chosera 10K for that task (and occasionaly I still do). It requires a decent amount of laps. As already mentioned in this thread, the Coticule (or BBW)+slurry edge is rounded to a degree, depending on the density of the slurry and the character of your particular stone. Unlike progessing from another synthetic, it takes a while before the roundness is gone and the edge itself starts progressing in keenness.
As a side note, several guys, who sent a couple of razors for honing have asked me to leave one razor finished off the Chosera and one off a Coticule, for comparison. Some prefered the Chosera, others went for the Coticule, a few could not decide which finish they liked best...

I think you could just as easily use any other high grit synthetic, yet I have no experience to back that up.

As mentioned, reaching that kind of keenness can also be done on the Coticule, but it takes a lot of experience. I am currently occupied with running extensive tests on 10 different Coticules extracted from various veins by the fine people of Ardennes Coticule. It strikes me how much difference there is between those specimens. Not in finishing abilities (at least not that my face can discern), but there's significant speed difference, and also the keenness level when coming off slurrly shows quite some variance, rating from "shaves my arm hair barely" to "shaves my face well enough". Also the feedback the stones provide and how to exaclty procede through the Dilucot (more about that in a second) method shows significant diversity. It takes me several honing sessions to familiarize myself enough with a Coticule to be able to successfully reproduce my regular results off my main workhorse.
What I have baptised the Dilucot method, is in essence nothing more than diluting the slurry as you go along. How many laps after each thining, depends on the Coticule at hand, the width of your razor's bevel, the steel's abrasion resistance, the applied honing pressure. It's a symphony and you're the conductor. As a starting point, I recommend augmenting the lap count by about half after each thining. This is proabably too much, but you'll learn to tune things later.
an example (I'd call this a pyramid, if the term wasn't already occupied)
-regular (milk-like) slurry: till bevel is fully developed and keenness maxed out.
-add a few drops of water and perform 10 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 15 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 20 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 30 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 45 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 60 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 90 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 100 laps.
By now you should almost have plain water on the hone.
The lap counts should work, even on the slowest Coticules. In daily practice I do a lot less (without actually counting), but I use a Coticule that performs very well for the Dilucot method.
At this point, I rinse both the razor and the hone and finish with about 50 laps on plain water.
I use a calibrated version of the HHT and I know where I want the razor to be at this point. 9 out of 10 times it is. Occasionaly I have to reach back to a thinned slurry and redo the last thinings.

Cutting a secondary bevel, as in the Unicot method, is much easier, but not half the fun.

Keep up the good work,
Bart.

I've used the exact method you describe i found that starting with yellow slurry you must dilute once the bevel is set and then dilute every 10 laps using only two drops of water at a time once slurry is washed away do 50 laps on water using realy light pressure test shave if not good enough then go bbw light slurry then coticule water. I have found using coticule you are limited to certain sharpness and it can lack that extra keeness. What i do is use norton 4k 8k you could set bevel with coti slurry i would use 1k naniwa or norton dmt1200 etc. but in your case if you start with coti slurry use 4k 8k n then bbw s then yellow water it realy does work the norton gives you sharpness then the bbw/coti further refines and adds ultra smoothness. I no bart used 10k hone after coti s then coti water so you could get your self a 10k naniwa to use. also paste would possibly work although i no you don't want to but its cheaper and very efective i would 'nt go with out cr.5 oxide

I have a couple of natural combos and you can get exallant results but its a little inconsistant compared to man made hones for touch ups i use bbw light slurry then yellow water paste works all the time very consistant

I get the impression from all this that spending more time making sure you have a great (not just good) bevel goes a long ways towards a better edge.

I have been spending a lot more time at coarser hones and have found improvement with the final edge.