Thread: Options to improve keenness

Ah, at long last the coticule king returns! Welcome back Bart, I've sorely missed your coticule expertise

Originally Posted by singlewedge

Here is a thread one the topic that you speak of. I am not sure if it made it to the wiki.

Hi,
I'm very familiar with that thread, and have had really good results with the secondary bevel using that method. Trying to see if I have an alternative to the secondary bevel, as I think it is easier to make a mistake and mess up the edge vs. a single bevel.

-Chief

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The thread that singlewedge linked to above is the one to read. I am fortunate in a having a coticule that is exceptional and will get a razor super sharp. The BBW with slurry works as you would expect but the yellow with water only will also add keenness as well as smoothing out the bevel.

Bart said that if following polishing on the yellow you wanted more keenness return to the BBW/slurry then back to the yellow water. If you're getting parts of the edge to pop arm hair and not others I would say you're coming close but obviously not there yet.

The general consensus is that you cannot overhone on a coticule so going back to the blue with light strokes and using the TPT and the arm hair popping to let you monitor your progress would be my next move. Until the whole edge was evenly sharp. Then polish a bit on the yellow again.

Did you dull the edge on a glass jar before you began ? This was one of Bart's methods that I shied away from but have since embraced. It will give you an edge that won't give false readings down the line. Truly starting from square one as it were.

If you're reluctance to use pastes is based on wanting to get the edge off of the hones alone I can identify with that. I felt the same way and still do to some extent. OTOH, I have gotten razors from honemiesters who used paste and they were far sharper than anything I have been able to achieve with hones alone. Fortunately, for my tastes anyhow, the edge I can get off of the hones is quite effective and comfortable.

You might be onto something going back to the BBW+slurry after the coticule+water. On my full hollow razor (I never put a secondary bevel on this one), I did go back about 3 times (thinking I had the slurry thinning rate wrong), then all of the sudden I had an awesome edge. Been using it for 2 months and it is still super sharp.

Yes, I dull the edge on a glass before I start- I like that checkpoint.

-Chief

I understand skill plays role but if you don't have right tools you will not get result you like. example i give to you norton 4k and expecting from you make blade sharp as norton 8k edge? will you or anyone able to do so? of course not. it is just simple impossible. you can sit behind table for days your result will be similar 4k not 8k. You need to have better hone. That is simple . get Japan hones-nakayama or Escher and see how your edge 's keenness will change .Or you can go head just use pastes cheapest solution.

Originally Posted by Bart

an example (I'd call this a pyramid, if the term wasn't already occupied)
-regular (milk-like) slurry: till bevel is fully developed and keenness maxed out.
-add a few drops of water and perform 10 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 15 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 20 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 30 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 45 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 60 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 90 laps.
-add a few drops of water and perform 100 laps.
By now you should almost have plain water on the hone.
The lap counts should work, even on the slowest Coticules. In daily practice I do a lot less (without actually counting), but I use a Coticule that performs very well for the Dilucot method.
At this point, I rinse both the razor and the hone and finish with about 50 laps on plain water.
I use a calibrated version of the HHT and I know where I want the razor to be at this point. 9 out of 10 times it is. Occasionaly I have to reach back to a thinned slurry and redo the last thinings.

Cutting a secondary bevel, as in the Unicot method, is much easier, but not half the fun.

Keep up the good work,
Bart.

I bet I've been diluting the slurry way too fast-- <100 strokes for the entire dillution process. I'll try your schedule first, then I'll try stepping back to the BBW+slurry. Wanted to see how far I can get before going back to the secondary bevel.

-Chief

Originally Posted by rayman

I wonder why you are reluctant to use a pasted strop. They seem like the easyest and most practicle progression for your application.
Ray

Same reason I'm not using synthetic stones at the moment-- just a personal preference. I know pasted strops provide really good results-- I'm just having fun trying to master these natural hones.

-Chief

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I understand skill plays role but if you don't have right tools you will not get result you like. example i give to you norton 4k and expecting from you make blade sharp as norton 8k edge? will you or anyone able to do so? of course not. it is just simple impossible. you can sit behind table for days your result will be similar 4k not 8k. You need to have better hone. That is simple . get Japan hones-nakayama or Escher and see how your edge 's keenness will change .Or you can go head just use pastes cheapest solution.

I'm sure I can get great results with nortons, pastes, etc, but that isn't my question.

I *have* achieved excellent results with just BBW and Coticule. I'm just struggling to replicate it (I can even replicate it with a double bevel, but my original question was can I improve keenness without the double bevel). Based on this thread I've gotten 2 ideas to explore.

I'm not interested in comparing the edge I can get with BBW/Coticle with other hones, etc-- I'm interested in getting the maximum edge possible with these hones.

-Chief

I played with the coticules untill i got the edge i was looking for. and they are apleasure to hone on especialy with slurry. Bart helped me out and i read his post and studied every thing he wrote. My best results .Was as follows yellow coticule very slowly diluting then 50 to even 100 on plain water getting extremly light on pressure i could pass hht after a good stroping i find you must do 50 linen then 50 leather. Also bbw milky slurry then coti water on a razor that did'nt need bevel tunning up gives great edge i never used paste on either because i did'nt need it i also added a ch12k to finish and that worked as well . I have had a thew pro honed razors and i have always added 50 bbw s then 50 yelloe coti and the shaves were better and smoother so for even touch ups i'd try 20 bbw s then yellow 30 and repeat if needed. Take yor time on yelloe dilute realy slowly i use bottled water and you will see a big differance in sharpness. Then after you can go bbws coti water and compare the differance on your next shave.

I got good results with secondry bevel but i prefer just one bevel as when it comes to touch ups it much more easy forc to get normal bevel back on track.

Why were on the subject it is said that the coticule with water only poilshes and is agreat finisher. So if i was to touch a razor up with coti water would that improve enough to have a keen edge.? my thinking is i have shaved of coti with slurry only and it shaves only just 100 laps on water and there is an improvemant quite a big one or using diluting method even better so the coti with water must sharpen a little ? is that right or not ?

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I understand skill plays role but if you don't have right tools you will not get result you like. example i give to you norton 4k and expecting from you make blade sharp as norton 8k edge? will you or anyone able to do so? of course not. it is just simple impossible. you can sit behind table for days your result will be similar 4k not 8k. You need to have better hone. That is simple . get Japan hones-nakayama or Escher and see how your edge 's keenness will change

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

I *have* achieved excellent results with just BBW and Coticule. I'm just struggling to replicate it (I can even replicate it with a double bevel, but my original question was can I improve keenness without the double bevel). Based on this thread I've gotten 2 ideas to explore.

That is exactly what turned Coticule-honing into a mild obsession for me and lead to all the different experiments: the fantastic, yet originally elusive, results I got. I have been comparing these results to that off the Chosera 10K, and to that of my Nakayama. A few weeks ago, Seth (SRP-member Zethlent) was so kind to send one of his Nakayamas accross the globe, for me to play with. Seth had great results of this hone, and so have I. But nothing that would embarrass a good Coticule edge. They all deliver nice pull-free shaves. In my opinion, the differences reside in a narrow region of individual preference, dictated by beard- and skin-type, and personal shaving style. Getting the desired keenness off a Coticule takes a bit of a special approach, considering the versatility of the use with slurry.

I reject the idea that one needs a large troika of hones to sharpen a razor. There are many hones on today's market. Many of them are interchangeable.

Best regards,
Bart.