Thread: Options to improve keenness

Relatively new to honing, I've rehoned my 3 razors, and sucessfully did a full bevel reset on a practice DA. I'm using BBW and Coticule. My progression is: Coticule + slurry to tune up the bevel, BBW + slurry, then coticule + water (per the wiki). My honing strokes are coming along, I can get the edge in nice condition per my magnifier. My benchmark is will the razor shave arm hair if held a bit above the skin. I can get to this benchmark if I use tape at the last coticlue+water stage which sets a secondary bevel. Without setting the secondary bevel, it is just shy of where I want the keeness to be (it will catch a few hairs this way. Will still shave ok, but more resistance on ATG than I want).

I'm wondering if there are other options to improve keeness aside from inducing a secondary bevel. I want to keep the BBW/Coticle as the primary honing tools, and I don't want to use paste. Is there a hone that could be used between the BBW and coticule or after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?

Note, my full hollow turned out real nice without the secondary bevel, but my 1/2 and 1/4 hollows are not quite there.

Thanks
-Chief

I am not the expert here..so i will just give some of my own observations from using the coticule.

You should be able to "pop hairs" without the second bevel. If it is not quite there off the coticule, i'm not sure if it will be there after adding another stone to the mix.

You should be able to comfortably shave off the coticule, IMHO.

with that said.....The cheapest way would be a pasted strop...

/Disclosure: I use a nakayama also. will sometimes break out the .5 CrO strop too...

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

Relatively new to honing, I've rehoned my 3 razors, and sucessfully did a full bevel reset on a practice DA. I'm using BBW and Coticule. My progression is: Coticule + slurry to tune up the bevel, BBW + slurry, then coticule + water (per the wiki). My honing strokes are coming along, I can get the edge in nice condition per my magnifier. My benchmark is will the razor shave arm hair if held a bit above the skin. I can get to this benchmark if I use tape at the last coticlue+water stage which sets a secondary bevel. Without setting the secondary bevel, it is just shy of where I want the keeness to be (it will catch a few hairs this way. Will still shave ok, but more resistance on ATG than I want).

I'm wondering if there are other options to improve keeness aside from inducing a secondary bevel. I want to keep the BBW/Coticle as the primary honing tools, and I don't want to use paste. Is there a hone that could be used between the BBW and coticule or after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?

Note, my full hollow turned out real nice without the secondary bevel, but my 1/2 and 1/4 hollows are not quite there.

Thanks
-Chief

Using the coticule with slurry will produce a slightly rounded edge. The thicker the slurry the more round. The speed in which you thin out the slurry will effect how 'sharp' the edge finally takes. The faster you thin out the slurry the more strokes to get the proper edge.

If you are just resetting th edge you should not need a thick slurry at all, but now that you are trying to get back to one bevel it may take some.

I don't usually use coticules because of this reason, unless I have time to play with my hones. The keenness of the edge is directly proportional to how fast you thin the slurry and the number of strokes before you thin it again. Too random a process for me.

In summary: don't start with too thick a slurry. Learn to know when to thin the slurry more by observing the visual changes in the honing prcess, sounds and feel. Don't thin the slurry too fast. Test the quality of the edge w/ TPT or cutting arm hairs as you go.

Good luck!

Here is a thread one the topic that you speak of. I am not sure if it made it to the wiki.

Originally Posted by singlewedge

Here is a thread one the topic that you speak of. I am not sure if it made it to the wiki.

Hi,
I'm very familiar with that thread, and have had really good results with the secondary bevel using that method. Trying to see if I have an alternative to the secondary bevel, as I think it is easier to make a mistake and mess up the edge vs. a single bevel.

-Chief

I understand skill plays role but if you don't have right tools you will not get result you like. example i give to you norton 4k and expecting from you make blade sharp as norton 8k edge? will you or anyone able to do so? of course not. it is just simple impossible. you can sit behind table for days your result will be similar 4k not 8k. You need to have better hone. That is simple . get Japan hones-nakayama or Escher and see how your edge 's keenness will change .Or you can go head just use pastes cheapest solution.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I understand skill plays role but if you don't have right tools you will not get result you like. example i give to you norton 4k and expecting from you make blade sharp as norton 8k edge? will you or anyone able to do so? of course not. it is just simple impossible. you can sit behind table for days your result will be similar 4k not 8k. You need to have better hone. That is simple . get Japan hones-nakayama or Escher and see how your edge 's keenness will change .Or you can go head just use pastes cheapest solution.

I'm sure I can get great results with nortons, pastes, etc, but that isn't my question.

I *have* achieved excellent results with just BBW and Coticule. I'm just struggling to replicate it (I can even replicate it with a double bevel, but my original question was can I improve keenness without the double bevel). Based on this thread I've gotten 2 ideas to explore.

I'm not interested in comparing the edge I can get with BBW/Coticle with other hones, etc-- I'm interested in getting the maximum edge possible with these hones.

-Chief

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?


Thanks
-Chief

yes whole war starts after coticule. Escher's, chinese 12 k,barber hones,Nakayama different names,hard arkansas,charnley forest etc. excluding pastes.
gl.

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

I want to keep the BBW/Coticle as the primary honing tools, and I don't want to use paste. Is there a hone that could be used between the BBW and coticule or after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?

The thread that singlewedge linked to above is the one to read. I am fortunate in a having a coticule that is exceptional and will get a razor super sharp. The BBW with slurry works as you would expect but the yellow with water only will also add keenness as well as smoothing out the bevel.

Bart said that if following polishing on the yellow you wanted more keenness return to the BBW/slurry then back to the yellow water. If you're getting parts of the edge to pop arm hair and not others I would say you're coming close but obviously not there yet.

The general consensus is that you cannot overhone on a coticule so going back to the blue with light strokes and using the TPT and the arm hair popping to let you monitor your progress would be my next move. Until the whole edge was evenly sharp. Then polish a bit on the yellow again.

Did you dull the edge on a glass jar before you began ? This was one of Bart's methods that I shied away from but have since embraced. It will give you an edge that won't give false readings down the line. Truly starting from square one as it were.

If you're reluctance to use pastes is based on wanting to get the edge off of the hones alone I can identify with that. I felt the same way and still do to some extent. OTOH, I have gotten razors from honemiesters who used paste and they were far sharper than anything I have been able to achieve with hones alone. Fortunately, for my tastes anyhow, the edge I can get off of the hones is quite effective and comfortable.

I wonder why you are reluctant to use a pasted strop. They seem like the easyest and most practicle progression for your application. In the Wiki you referred to it states:

"When used with water only (no slurry) Coticules are among the best finishing hones, but in that mode they offer hardly any keenness improvement. Their benefits lie into smoothing already keen edges."

This would indicate that the Coticule is not the final answer for the finish. And the BBW information states:

"The Belgian Blue with slurry also levels off at a certain keenness, but this keenness is sharper than that left by the coticule with slurry."

But is this keenness adequate for your requirements?
Somewhere in here, it seems, that you need something to produce the sharp edge you are looking for before you try to polish it with the coticule + water.

Ray