Why does razor pulls and scratches my face despite HHT passed ?

I encountered a problem. I've been shaving with my straight for nearly a year now. During this time i had to hone the razor a few times. Tha razor usually maintains good sharpness for about 2 months. I always use HHT to check if the razor is sharp enough. However, the razor passes HHT only if it's stropped after honing. So my honing looks like this:

1. 5..10 strokes on the 8k
2. 20 strokes on the strop
3. HHT test
4. If HHT is passed then I stop honing. If not, i get back to 8k and do 2..4 more strokes and 20 on the strop and do HHT again.

I always used this procedure with good results. Unfortunately, last time i honed the razor in the same way (with the HHT passed very well) but the shave was not comfortable and the razor pulled my whiskers somewhat also i felt pain on the face skin.
I thought i had overhoned the razor so I did a few strokes in stropping direction on 8k and started to hone again until it passed HHT. Unfortunately i had uncomfortable shave again. I felt some pulling, sratching and pain after the shave on the face as if it were "washed" with abrasive paper. Is it possible the razor is still overhoned ?

Overhoned razor slides over the skin without cutting.

Couple of things could be the problem:

1st & foremost: HHT is only an indicator, shavetest is the proof of the pudding.
2nd: does the razor pass the HHT along its entire cutting edge?
3rd: is your skinprep up to scratch?
4th: some hones, particularly diamond hones leave a harsh edge. You may want to use a chromium oxide pasted strop after honing and before stropping on leather to soften the cutting edge.

You seem to be a careful honer, that doesn't do more laps than needed, which is a good thing. But from what you describe, somehow you ended up with a very rough edge, possibly caused by a number of microchips missing from the very edge. I am not a specialist when it comes to overhoning, so it's hard to tell. It could be overhoning, but I think so far you only performed a number of touch-ups on that razor. For some people that method works time and time again. But other people's (hard) whiskers tend to cause a microchip in the edge every so often. These chips build up to the point where the razor requires full honing. A touch up regains the original sharpness, but it does not remove the roughness coming from the microchips.
Either that, or overhoning. Let's leave it there. What I'd recommend is the same anyway.
I think you should perform a TNT as this point (Thumb Nail Test). The TNT may remove some of the keenness of the very edge, but that very edge is no good at this point anyway.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with the TNT, so here's a brief explanation:

Wet your thumbnail. Drag the razor, edge down and no more pressure than its own weight, slowly over your nail, as if you were going to cut it. The edge should sink a small bit into the nail, causing a clear sensation of draw, often referred to as "a sticky feeling". But it should feel very smooth. If the edge has any rough spots (caused by either of the aforementioned problems), the TNT will easily reveal that.

The remedy is to go to a lower grit hone. I assume you're using a Norton 4K/8K. Do about 10 reverse strokes on the 4K, and then 10 normal X-strokes. Check with the TNT again. If still rough, repeat. Test-repeat-test-repeat, etc... till the TNT reveals a completely smooth and sharp edge. It should be "very sticky", but no roughness whatsoever.

At that point it's time to polish on the 8K or start doing conservative pyramids between the 4K and the 8K. Your choice.
Don't perform the TNT anymore at this point, since the test itself could be slightly detrimental to the edge.

Please keep us posted,

Bart.

There seems to be a problem with your edge, an 8k hone can not solve.

8.000 is very, very fine. It´s finishing grade prior to pasting
(you can however use it without, but pasting will improve the shaving quality overall)

If wear or damage has appeared on the edge, an 8k will not be enough to repair the edge.

i would try a little coarser stone, maybe a 4.000 or even an 1.000,
with a 4.000 in between to 8.000.
Set the bevel new, refine the edge, finish and paste.
This should solve every problem thereis.
But this would mean buying new hones. You could however send the razor to a honemeister

There is no way you will have overhoned the edge with 10 strokes per honing session,
on an 8k. It would take more, I believe. Way more. From time to time I stay for a 100 strokes on an 8k without overhoning it.

It would be hard to find out what caused the problem in the first place.
Maybe there is a stropping issue, and you got a rolled edge.
I had this once; I honed a razor to a very nice edge with silent slicing HHT
and stropped it. I was in a little hurry and unfocused.
After stropping I felt a difference in HHT,
it wasn´t as nicely as before, but still it was HHT.

I did a test shave, and the razor pulled a little and damn,
my skin burnt.
This is why HHT has to be used with caution

btw: IDK but keeping a razor shave ready one year with only an 8k is a very nice accomplishment.
It could be that it´s just time for your razor to be freshly honed!
As I already said, an 8k hone cannot undo the wear the edge experiences.
So from time to time it takes mor than just a finisher or pastes
to reset things at the edge

Your hone doesn't need lapped does it? Just brain storming.

I have never been able to shave off an 8K. I go to a 16K then pastes.


R

You might want to invest in some jewelers loupes. They are the one eye piece magnifiers you see people use in the movies to ogle a diamond. 10x is fine, 30x would be better. This way you can see how your edge is responding to your honing.

I was thinking the same as Bart, microchipping is common in older blades and cannot be seen with the naked eye usually, as dnjrboy said a good jwelers loupe or a little radioshack microscope will tell the truth about the blade. If microchipping is the problem the best solution is to reset the bevel and continue to do so until all of the bad metal is gone and then progress from there.

Kekon,
dzień dobry! There are two things here that seem to point out your issue. Kees talked about the various test we perform to move on to the next stage of honing. Those include the TNT, TPT and HHT. He is absolutly correct in saying these are only tests. In fact I really think that two of them, the TNT and the TPT, are only a tactile way of us being able to move on to the next stage. The HHT is, of course, a visual method. These "tests", I believe as Kees does, that these should actually be called "indicators".

If you stop and think about it the TNT and the TPT are the only two of the three that you actually come in full contact with the blade testing it completely from one end to the other. The HHT is a random indicator of different points along the blade. When I use the HHT I only check 4 to 5 points along the blade, and this is less than 1% of the total blade. It use to trick me all the time. I still do the HHT to make sure I haven't screwed the edge up after stropping, but a long time ago I changed to checking the edge with my little Microscope before moving to the pasts and strop. The final test, the shaving test, IS the only test that really tells the story.

This is where nun2sharp points out that microchipping might be the culpret. I Also agree with him on this point. Because of the HHT not really being to usefull, other than making you smile because you know that those small points are sharp, I have resorted to checking the blade with my little 60x microscope prior to going to the pasts and strop. After the strop I do both the microscope and then the HHT. Because I changed to this method long ago, I invariably find a microchip somewhere along the length of the blade at the end of my 16k stone. Interestingly enough these are almost always either around 1/4" in from the toe or 1/8" in from the heal. Don't know why, just is.
Find some way to look at that edge and let us know it you do have microchipping.

Just my .02


Ray

You do need a cheap jewlers loop to look at the edge i have 30k one if theres any chips you will see them straight away. but if 8k is'ny getting you there i'd just rehone you can set bevel nicley on 4k then polish again on 8k i use the norton 4k/8k it will work fine. I've had the similar problem passed hht but shaved with out pulling but felt gritty i just did a pyramid and test shaved untill the shave was smooth again maybe it as over done slightly i don't no but if in dout just rehone.over honed does glide over stubble not sharpenough will shave but pull and hurt so i'd say its not sharp enough.

Sounds like microchips... You have been touching-up the razor a few times over the months, but as said before, over time touching up may not be enough to correct (or remove) microchips that slowly develop on the edge with normal use.

Maybe you have a Norton 4/8K or a single grit 8K, so you could do a few laps with the 4K with water or a few laps on the 8K with slurry... not quite "bevel setting" slurry in the 8K cuts faster enough to smooth out those small chips.

The HHT is a reliable test, but only good if you are sure the entire edge is the same sharpness because the "hanging hair" is only cut by one tiny spot on the edge... so what about the rest of the edge.

Also as suggested in previous posts, you may need to get acquainted with the other two tests... TNT and the TPT.

This is a better option than a loop IMO. A loop is difficult to get good lighting sometimes, whereas this option is illumiated.

Illuminated Microscope - RadioShack.com

Two things came to my mind, one already mentioned. Has the 8k been lapped recently? THe other being a way to look at the edge. Without some sort of magnification, there could be all kinds of things going on with the edge, and the only way to diagnose it would be to examine the edge. That little scope is worth every penny and will save you a lot of aggravation.

Thank You for all the pieces of advice. They are very usefull.
As far as hones are concerned i have 4 separate one. 1k, 4k, 8k and 12k.
They were made in Japan. I don't have any Norton one because here in Poland it's extremely difficult to get them. The only ones i saw were 300 and maybe 1000 grit. They are basically designed for honing kitchen knives.
All the hones i have were thoroughly lapped. I used 300 grit abrasive paper, 600 grit and 1000 grit to polish the surface.


At the begining i did TPT to see if there is any roughness on the blade. I felt very weak roughness on the toe of the blade; the sensation i got was very weak though. As Bart suggested, i did 10 reverse strokes on 4k and then 10 normal strokes. The roughness disappeared. Then i honed the razor on 8k and stropped until it passed HHT and also, cut the thinest arm hair. From 8k stone i moved to 12k and did 30 strokes. Now it cut arm hair with extreme ease; i used very, very light touch and it cut arm hair immediately, without any sound. I could cut almost every single hair. I realize the HHT and cutting arm hair test are not ultimate ones. Tomorrow i will shave and see the results and write about it...

It seems the problem i had with my honing ma be due to incorrect honing technique. I find it extremely difficult to use only one hand to handle the razor and slide it along the hone so that it lies perfectly flat on the hone. I just really can't do that... Instead I use two hands to prevent the blade from lifting up from the hone (i mean, the toe side which is prone to lifting up in most cases). Maybe using two hands is the main culprit of bad honing results. I have other razor which i use to learn to hone with one hand only but i haven't learned it well yet..

Let us know how the shave test turns out!:)
I agree with Bart, this sounds like microchipping from normal usage and also it may be that you have not rounded the edges of the hone. Sharp edges on the hone can result in microchips on the edge.
I learned that the hard way!:)

I believe you did well. Don't worry about the 2 handed technique. The blade doesn't know if it's pushed with one or both hands. That you don't lift the spine is the most important.
The HHT indeed is no test to predict how well an edge will shave your beard. It's a probing test that can be useful to monitor honing progress, if you learn how to read it. I think you are learning it well.
I hope your shave will confirm all the good signs tomorrow.
If not, we're all here to catch you. :)

Best regards,
Bart.

One thing I have noticed with two handing it is that depending on the grind, often times the blade is so thin where the bevel is that even a small amount of uneven pressure can cause the blade to be honed unevenly. Meaning you would be taking off more metal at the tip or the heel than the other. I have only honed 7 or 8 razors though so put my take on it in perspective.

Honing it with one hand on the tang will keep the same amount of pressure on the entire bevel, vs. two hands where the extra pressure from the position of your second hand can affect the bevel. I get significantly more consitent results with hollow grinds by using only one hand.

That is not to say it can't be done, I just personally don't have the muscle control to do it so do what you want with the above info, including throwing it in the recycle bin if you see fit :)

One last thing not directly related to your post but I think that 8k is not an optimal finishing stone. Sure it can work but in that grit range a step up to a similarly graded 12k would be a significant difference imo.

Well, i must say i had good shave :) No pulling, no scratching. My face is like a baby's butt :)
I think the razor could be honed even better but it is acceptable now.
After polishing on 8k i switched to 12k and maybe it helped to get better blade. It seems there were really some microchips on the blade.

Quote:

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One thing I have noticed with two handing it is that depending on the grind, often times the blade is so thin where the bevel is that even a small amount of uneven pressure can cause the blade to be honed unevenly. Meaning you would be taking off more metal at the tip or the heel than the other

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I will practise to use only one hand when the razor is dull. I believe it will give better results.

I have small cheap microscope but it's not easy to see the blade through it. Maybe it needs some adjustment; i wil try to do it again.