Finishing Threesome

Hey all,

So I found a great combination of hones to be used together to provide an AWESOME finish on a razor. I've tried this on a couple of razors so far and am very pleased with the results.

For the "finishing threesome" I use:

1) A 8"x2" very hard and slow coticule.
2) A small (about 6 1/4" x 1 1/4" I think) yellow/green escher.
3) My beautiful Nakayama Maruichi, about 7" x 1.5". It's a greenish colour, O_S says it's a kiita but just a rarer colour. :) I also use a small slurry stone made from the same type of Nakayama, so no cross-contamination.

How I used the "finishing threesome":

1) About 50 laps on my coticule with just water
2) About 50 laps on the escher
3) 50 laps on the Nakayama with a very light slurry
4) 50 laps with a very diluted slurry on the Nakayama, by just adding a bit of water to the stone.
5) 50 laps on the Nakayama with just plain water. I rinsed off the razor and the stone to ensure there was no slurry at all.

The number of laps I used were probably too many, but I doubt these stones would ever overhone a razor so I don't think more would hurt at all. Besides, I like to use them so I don't usually count strokes because I get "lost in the moment". All three of these stones are not fast cutting either, so this would only probably work if you had an already very sharp razor (which I did).

I could probably fully get away with just using the Nakayama for the finish, but I like the idea of using the coticule and escher before just for kicks. Besides, I know there's no way in hell that the razor will not be smooth after going through these 3 finishing stones. (Well I'll keep telling myself that anways... :rolleyes:)

Anyways, here's a picture of my sexy finishing threesome.

Dave

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

The number of laps I used were probably too many, but I doubt these stones would ever overhone a razor .

Dave

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Dave the day will come you will over hone the blade in any of them. You can over hone on coticule ,Escher or Nakayama.
it is just matter of time and getting used to know them.
I hope i am not downgrading your work. i think you went to that stones too early that is why you love the results.

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Dave the day will come you will over hone the blade in any of them. You can over hone on coticule ,Escher or Nakayama.
it is just matter of time and getting used to know them.
I hope i am not downgrading your work. i think you went to that stones too early that is why you love the results.

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Don't worry, you're not downgrading my work. :) It seems that all three of my stones are VERY slow cutting, so it's always seemed like I need to do a bunch of laps to even see much sign of it doing anything. But I agree, it is time and getting to know them. I'm not too experienced so I am still experimenting and I like to air on the side of a few more laps than not enough. :rolleyes:

Dave try get some cheap hones example norton 4/8k use it for middle set up. This is how i do. when i go to finishing stone edge is almost in there. Depends on Blade i don't make more then 10-40 laps on finishing stone.
You are exactly right they are all slow cutter that is why they are final finish stone.

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Dave try get some cheap hones example norton 4/8k use it for middle set up. This is how i do. when i go to finishing stone edge is almost in there. Depends on Blade i don't make more then 10-40 laps on finishing stone.
You are exactly right they are all slow cutter that is why they are final finish stone.

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Oh I have enough hones....I have a full set of Shaptons now!! I've only had them for about a week so I'm still getting to know them, but I'm definitely all set up in terms of hones. :o I don't have a problem getting a razor shave ready anymore, especially with the new Shaptons it's pretty easy, but I really do think I over-do my finishing. I guess I want to be SURE it's doing something so I throw in a bunch of extra laps.

Looking back at how many laps you I did and after what you said...I think I did WAY too many! Haha, oh well, to live and to learn. I used that many laps on a Boker today and it was shave-ready, so I probably would get the same results if I had just done about 50 laps on my Nakayama with just water. But I like to experiment and learn from my mistakes. :)

Thanks for the advice.

Carn't fault you you might as well use all three rather than collecting dust. I like to finish on coticule why i just like the coticule for some reason but i do somtimes well most times go bbw s 50laps then 50 coticule with water then chineese 50 laps and guaranteed smoothness . most people say it is impossible to over hone on coticule i never have infact i don't no if i have on any hone the only thing i've found is somtimes my edge will shave great but feel abit gritty then it might be over done i guess but i just rehone untill good smooth edge

Hey Dave, those are some beauties you have there. What I've been doing is seeing how the razor shaves at the 8k level. If it is good I go on to one finishing stone of choice and see how much I can futher improve the edge/shave.

If I feel the shave off of the 8k is lacking something I go back to the 4/8 pyramid or the equvalent if I'm using something other than a Norton. I stay there until it is dialed in and then move up in grit when, as I say above, the shave dictates I'm ready. Randydance got me on that procedure and it is kind of fun.

The Shapton USA site says, "The most important concept when using the Shapton system is achieving consistency at a given grit level before moving up to the next finer stone. At the 2000 grit level, your tool should be perfectly shaped. It is ineffective to attempt to reshape your tool at any finer grit level. If you have built a good foundation at the coarse grit level, very little work will be required at the finer grit levels."

BTW, some people say that you can't overhone on a coticule, Escher or Nakayama. Randy told me he once did a test to see if he could on a coticule and he did. Took a lot of laps and I forget how many it was but it can be too much of a good thing.... Sham is right on.

Thats what i have been doing latley shaving of the 8k when happy moving to coticule then paste test ing at each 8k then coti then paste i have found the shave of 8kn to be very good. How much differance would you say the coti makes jimmy? compared to the 8k shave?

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

Thats what i have been doing latley shaving of the 8k when happy moving to coticule then paste test ing at each 8k then coti then paste i have found the shave of 8kn to be very good. How much differance would you say the coti makes jimmy? compared to the 8k shave?

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The coticule smooths the edge and if it is my 8x3 natural the yellow will definitely add sharpness to boot using water only. I know some are better than others and that 8x3 happens to be the best of the many I have so far. If I didn't like fooling with different hones so much I would be fine if that 8x3 was all that I had.

IIRC, David Polan aka Heavydutysg135 who I don't believe is active on the site any longer was adamant in his opinion that you could NOT overhone on a coticule. I thought I remember he did an experiment where he did 300 skadzillion passes (I think skadzillion is the proper mathematical term) and never had an overhoned edge at any stage. Coticules differ, so who knows.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The coticule smooths the edge and if it is my 8x3 natural the yellow will definitely add sharpness to boot using water only. I know some are better than others and that 8x3 happens to be the best of the many I have so far. If I didn't like fooling with different hones so much I would be fine if that 8x3 was all that I had.

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like i say i have been quite surprised how good the edge is of the 8k having never shaved directly of the 8kn of my 8x3 i have found with 20/40 laps a little improve mant in smoothness but not massive but enought to just notice the coti makes a little differance.

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

IIRC, David Polan aka Heavydutysg135 who I don't believe is active on the site any longer was adamant in his opinion that you could NOT overhone on a coticule. I thought I remember he did an experiment where he did 300 skadzillion passes (I think skadzillion is the proper mathematical term) and never had an overhoned edge at any stage. Coticules differ, so who knows.

Chris L

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I also remember him saying that i think he did hundreds of laps on coticule and he said it never improved the razor but also never deteriated the edge

I once managed to overhone a Friodur on a coticule.

I usually go from coticule to Nakayama and skip the Escher.

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

I also remember him saying that i think he did hundreds of laps on coticule and he said it never improved the razor but also never deteriated the edge

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It must improve the razor edge somewhat. I think there must be some sort of sharpness "limit" that each stone can bring. My coticule is VERY VERY slow (I can do 100+ laps on it and barely see any evidence of metal particles in the water or on the surface, but perhaps that is normal :shrug:), but I think it would improve the edge of the razor up to that "limit", whatever it may be. It may take a lot of strokes, but I think it would improve the edge up to that "limit" if it was not too far below that "limit". If it gets to the point where any number of laps isn't improving the razor, doesn't that mean that the "limit" is already reached? It makes sense in my head. :p But this sounds like a good hard/slow coticule is perfect for a maintainence hone, doesn't it?

This is all hypothetical and supposing (not nearly enough experience to be making judgements), so don't take what I'm saying as gospel. :)

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

My coticule is VERY VERY slow (I can do 100+ laps on it and barely see any evidence of metal particles in the water or on the surface, but perhaps that is normal :shrug:),

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I'm quite surprised at the extreme ends of the variation in coticules (soft at one extreme and hard at the other). I have an olive colored 8x3 natural combo that's like yours. Glass surface. Excellent polisher. Not a cutter. I have a small skinny bonded combo that's very soft and an extremely fast cutter. Swarf evident within 10 or less passes. Crazy how fast that thing cuts. So much so, that it's hard to use it as a final polish stone.

I also have some that are a good compromise between the two extremes. I have a smaller number of Thuringians, but I have not seen that kind of variance within that type of stone. Does anyone have any "soft" Thuringians that cut very fast?

Chris L

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

I'm quite surprised at the extreme ends of the variation in coticules (soft at one extreme and hard at the other). I have an olive colored 8x3 natural combo that's like yours. Glass surface. Excellent polisher. Not a cutter.....
Chris L

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So my coticule is not broken!:rofl2: I wanted a slow/hard one when I ordered it from Howard, and boy, it's exactly what I got. :D It has a very glassy surface and works pretty much ONLY as a polisher, but it's good at what it does.

Yes thats what he was saying the razor was shaving good and he performed loads of laps and the shave was still good and did'nt make the sahves worse by performing too many laps ie not over honed. I have a thew coticules and i find mine are all medium to hard and theres not much differancs except one that cuts a little quiker than the rest by how quik the slurry darkens. But as for polishing i carn't tell one from the other they all seem to polish fine

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

Yes thats what he was saying the razor was shaving good and he performed loads of laps and the shave was still good and did'nt make the sahves worse by performing too many laps ie not over honed. I have a thew coticules and i find mine are all medium to hard and theres not much differancs except one that cuts a little quiker than the rest by how quik the slurry darkens. But as for polishing i carn't tell one from the other they all seem to polish fine

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That's interesting to know, thanks Gary. :) So it does seem like the coticule would be a good maintenance hone.

I think I remember Bart saying that coticules don't vary as much in the polishing qualities as they do when they're used with slurry for cutting. What I mean is that when you throw slurry into the equation there are a lot of variations in cutting ability from coticule to coticule, but those coticules will vary much less when it comes to there polishing abilities when used with just water. It does seem that some are just not as good at polishing, but those are probably the super soft and fast ones.....I dunno, ask Bart!

I think it's funny how it seems that many threads in the honing forum not specifically about coticules seem to degenerate into a discussion about coticules. :o

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

That's interesting to know, thanks Gary. :) So it does seem like the coticule would be a good maintenance hone.

I think I remember Bart saying that coticules don't vary as much in the polishing qualities as they do when they're used with slurry for cutting. What I mean is that when you throw slurry into the equation there are a lot of variations in cutting ability from coticule to coticule, but those coticules will vary much less when it comes to there polishing abilities when used with just water. It does seem that some are just not as good at polishing, but those are probably the super soft and fast ones.....I dunno, ask Bart!

I think it's funny how it seems that many threads in the honing forum not specifically about coticules seem to degenerate into a discussion about coticules. :o

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Yes thats what i have found when slurry is used they can differ i brought several to compare they all copare relatrivly the same they feel slightly differant when in use they also look differant when i asked bart how to tell a good polisher he did say he could'nt say if i remember rightly ovously if you have a soft one it would create a slurry whilst polishing which would'nt be any good unless you kept it under running water. I have 5x3 coti from howard it is realy light with pink swirls in it and that one cuts fairly well not rapid but quiker than my others if i use pressure they all remove metal fairly quik circles and back and forth strokes the slurry turns grey quik. If i hone on slurry i can bearly shave if i do 100 laps on coti water i can shave much better so coti with water must sharpen razor and polish

Sounds like what I've been doing with my Oohira and coti... next will be the Kitayama :D But I only do 10-20 laps on each stone and I get the smoothest shaves, so far :p

My coti is a bonded combi and a soft fast cutter, I would love to come across a hard slow to feel the difference. But the next one I order will be the Kitayama or equivilent.

I'd like to try a soft one just to see how fast they can cut

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Originally Posted by DwarvenChef

Sounds like what I've been doing with my Oohira and coti... next will be the Kitayama :D But I only do 10-20 laps on each stone and I get the smoothest shaves, so far :p

My coti is a bonded combi and a soft fast cutter, I would love to come across a hard slow to feel the difference. But the next one I order will be the Kitayama or equivilent.

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Oh just go out and buy yourself a Nakayama, we all know you want to! :D

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

I'd like to try a soft one just to see how fast they can cut

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Me too, but I tend to prefer using natural stones for polishing. I've never handled a truly soft coticule before, I have a feeling my coticule now and a real soft one will be like night and day. I must say I am curious.

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

Does anyone have any "soft" Thuringians that cut very fast?

Chris L

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I've got an Escher 'light green' that cuts fast yet is still fine. It has the end label designating color and came in a box that is labeled "Barber's Delight". It is the fastest of the Escher/Thuringans that I have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

I have 5x3 coti from howard it is realy light with pink swirls in it and that one cuts fairly well not rapid but quiker than my others if i use pressure they all remove metal fairly quik circles and back and forth strokes the slurry turns grey quik. If i hone on slurry i can bearly shave if i do 100 laps on coti water i can shave much better so coti with water must sharpen razor and polish

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My 8x3 natural came from Howard a year and a half or so ago. A friend bought it from Howard but decided he preferred synthetics and sold it to me.

It also is light colored with pink swirls. A great cutter and believe it or not I've never created slurry on it. I don't have the heart to rub the stone on it. I use slurry on the blue side and water on the yellow.

Hey Dave,
It is truely satisfying, finding a natural stone progression, as well as a finisher that work well. Ive done so myself, with a number of natural stone progressions and find it immensely satisfying.
Congrats man!

Thanks,

Mac

:)

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

Oh I have enough hones....I have a full set of Shaptons now!! I've only had them for about a week so I'm still getting to know them, but I'm definitely all set up in terms of hones. :o I don't have a problem getting a razor shave ready anymore, especially with the new Shaptons it's pretty easy, but I really do think I over-do my finishing. I guess I want to be SURE it's doing something so I throw in a bunch of extra laps.

Looking back at how many laps you I did and after what you said...I think I did WAY too many! Haha, oh well, to live and to learn. I used that many laps on a Boker today and it was shave-ready, so I probably would get the same results if I had just done about 50 laps on my Nakayama with just water. But I like to experiment and learn from my mistakes. :)

Thanks for the advice.

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Hi Dave,
Congrats on what sounds like dream setup. I sure you will get them down in short order. Before you know it you wil have found out several ways to a common end and picking the best ones for sure.:)

Mike

The title of this thread is highly misleading :td

:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao

How does the hardness compare between your hard coticule and nakayama?

It would be kinda cool to have a mohs test set of scribers.

Great thread.

I would think there's a lot of redundancy in the progression mentioned in the first post. But if you have the hones, and you like using them all in the same honing sequence, I don't mind being wrong with that opinion.

On Coticules, in my experience so far, only two issues can cause a Coticule to fail as a finisher.
One is a defect. If the stone is contaminated with one or more small chunks of quartz, it wont work well on razors. Some Coticule layers have quartz contamination, that's why the people of Ardennes Coticule really keep an open eye for it. If by great exception one would escape their attention, I am very sure they would replace it immediately.
The second issue is with very soft Coticules. It's rare, but some Coticules are so soft they will generate slurry from the contact with the razor. These are always very fast hones. The issue can be fixed by finishing under a slowly running tap.
All other Coticules I ever tried (not counting, but I'm talking about 40-50 hones, both standard and select grade, various sizes and shapes) have always been excellent finishers. I can't feel the differences on my face, and I don't believe that anyone else can either.

About overhoning. It seems to me the term is used for several conditions. Sometimes, lower level scratches can turn up as strange anomalies during the finer stages in a honing progression...
With enough pressure, anyone can tear the fragile edge of a razor apart on any hone.
But using the X-stroke (or one of the variations) with normal light pressure, I haven't overhoned an edge even while doing a 1000 laps on a Cotilcule, or doing several 100's on a Nakayama, or similar lap counts on the Naniwa Chosera10K (a synthetic hone). The only wire edges I have raised so far, were on DMT-E, and they rather quickly dissolved while honing on a BBW with slurry. If you get StraightRazorDave's excellent results, why worry about something that most guys who rely on natural hones have never met?

Care to try reversing that "finishing threesome" progression and see what edge that delivers?:)

Best regards, and cheers for the fine results,

Bart.

reading along here I get the impression that it is assumed that a finish stone must be a slow stone; why?

I have never heard anywhere of high quality japan finish stone refered to as slow.

Pressure has something to do with it. If i touch down on a razor with asagi stone it will show black instantly. Using light touch = not so much. This to me does not make for a slow stone. it's just light pressure on a fast cutting finisher that is somewhere between 16 and 30k+

i often use blue with slurry then yellow water for maintaining razor and it works every time

To be honest, I never do less the 100 strokes on my finishing stone (Portugese slate 6000-8000). I never overhoned a razor. Watching the bevel under a loupe and doing the HHT for orientation, I would say, the blades need that amount of strokes. The worst thing that could happen is, that I have wasted a couple of minutes. After the stone, I do 30 laps on Chromium Oxide and the result is always to my complete satisfaction. Most natural (finishing) work quite slow and something around 100 strokes won't do any bad to the edge, according to my experience.
I have never worked with synthetic finishing stones. Perhaps these are more aggressive and less strokes are appriate.

How many strokes are you guys doing on coticule water only after 8k norton ?