Questions About Edge Longevity & Honing

Hey guys,

I've noticed an above average number of members recently chiming in to say their edges are lasting upwards of two months or more without touch ups, paste etc. I should say I don't doubt this to be true as stropping goes a long way towards edge longevity, but in the past it was accepted that after a hand full of shaves it was common to at least go to pastes if not the hones.

So, my questions are:

1. Are these razors, which are lasting months, being used daily for months, or are they part of a rotation? (I have a Dovo I bought in April which only requires a touch up now, but I concede it is one in a rotation. Does this count as lasting for months too? )

2. Is there any true benefit to shaving with an edge that is months old, other than proving that it's possible?

3. By putting off a honing session for so long, aren't you actually making more work for yourself when it does come time to hit the hones? I mean, after several months of use you probably aren't just going to be performing a simple touch up any more, it will be a full honing job and therefore more work.

I realize it feels great to say your edges are lasting for months (or years in some peoples' case), but is it worth it to let your edges go that long without maintenance?

Thanks in advance,

Ryan

Some very good points there Ryan...

Personally I think honing "once done correctly" has very little to do with longevity... I mean how could I say anything different, I have said for too long that edges only get so sharp, so how long they last is due to every other factor out there...:)

There is an old saying too about sharpening that I happen to agree with...

"It is much easier to keep an edge sharp, than to sharpen an edge"

i will reply to your questions with quotes maybe will be easier.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

1. Are these razors, which are lasting months, being used daily for months, or are they part of a rotation? (I have a Dovo I bought in April which only requires a touch up now, but I concede it is one in a rotation. Does this count as lasting for months too? )

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I made a test with my TI i shaved every other day more then 45 days it was shaving same as 1 day . i got tired of using it and stop the test.

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2. Is there any true benefit to shaving with an edge that is months old, other than proving that it's possible?

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I don't think there is any advantage or disadvantage using old or fresh honed blade.

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3. By putting off a honing session for so long, aren't you actually making more work for yourself when it does come time to hit the hones? I mean, after several months of use you probably aren't just going to be performing a simple touch up any more, it will be a full honing job and therefore more work.

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Your Thinking is wrong in here. You think someone uses razor 2 months and it every time blade gets dull ,duller etc but person still using it? This is not right concept . the day i feel blade start to pulling and stropping doesn't bring edge back that blade goes to touch up hone. This could happen after 4 shaves or after 60 shaves no one knows.

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I realize it feels great to say your edges are lasting for months (or years in some peoples' case), but is it worth it to let your edges go that long without maintenance?

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I think i answered this above. Just don't think someone shaves with dull razor. as soon as it gets dull razor goes to hone.

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hope this helps

Ryan

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There's a ton of factors involved in edge longevity: the steel, grind, bevel angle, shaving technique, beard prep, etc. I don't personally go for any edge life records. When an edge seems to have lost just a little bit, I like to take a handful of strokes on the C12k with a trip on the chomeox strop just to smooth it out. To be fair, all but 2 of my current rotation were hone by some of the best out there. But as Glen said, once they are sharp it's easy to keep them that way. I use a 10+/- razor rotation and I have some razors that have gone a year+ without needing any significant re-honing.

My problem is that i tend to drop or ding my blade before it gets dull. For me I go two months and end with a sharp but dinged microchipped blade. I need a cloth floor and counter. MikeB

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

I've noticed an above average number of members recently chiming in to say their edges are lasting upwards of two months or more without touch ups, paste etc. I should say I don't doubt this to be true as stropping goes a long way towards edge longevity, but in the past it was accepted that after a hand full of shaves it was common to at least go to pastes if not the hones.

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It's still accepted AFAIK.

I think what's changed are (a) the "Stropping is King" thread got a lot of guys to take a hard look at their stropping technique and (b) more guys have finally gotten enough experience that extended edge life is becoming more common. A few years ago the only guys that could keep their edge going for months were the guys with 20+ yrs of straight razor experience, like Lynn, Puffah, and honedright. These guys are still the only ones reporting the yr+ edge lives (without paste or any other type of touch-up), but presumably by the time I've been doing it for that long I'll be getting that sort of edge life too.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

1. Are these razors, which are lasting months, being used daily for months, or are they part of a rotation? (I have a Dovo I bought in April which only requires a touch up now, but I concede it is one in a rotation. Does this count as lasting for months too?)

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Mine were generally used daily for months, then dropped back to a lesser schedule, generally a week straight every few months. At least for me, when I say a razor has 4 months of shaves on it I'm talking about ~120 shaves, though it may be two or more years since that razor was honed.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

2. Is there any true benefit to shaving with an edge that is months old, other than proving that it's possible?

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Less honing of course. Also the sharpness is the same every time, which adds consistency to your shave routine and IMO improves the quality of the shave in the same way that sticking to a single holder and brand of blades improves the shaves for the DE guys.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

3. By putting off a honing session for so long, aren't you actually making more work for yourself when it does come time to hit the hones? I mean, after several months of use you probably aren't just going to be performing a simple touch up any more, it will be a full honing job and therefore more work.

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I think you're misunderstanding what's happening. The edge is lasting longer at the same level of sharpness. If you're using the same blade every day then it probably does get duller than if you were alternating, because as it slowly dulls your technique adapts to compensate and you don't really realize how dull it's really getting. But even so there's very little additional work needed when it finally needs honing. Last night I touched up my Koeller (~120 shaves) and it took 6 laps on the finishing side of my Dubl Duck barber hone.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

I realize it feels great to say your edges are lasting for months (or years in some peoples' case), but is it worth it to let your edges go that long without maintenance?

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They aren't going without maintenance. They're just being maintained with the strop instead of the hone. Both ways work.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Hey guys,

So, my questions are:

1. Are these razors, which are lasting months, being used daily for months, or are they part of a rotation? (I have a Dovo I bought in April which only requires a touch up now, but I concede it is one in a rotation. Does this count as lasting for months too? )

2. Is there any true benefit to shaving with an edge that is months old, other than proving that it's possible?

3. By putting off a honing session for so long, aren't you actually making more work for yourself when it does come time to hit the hones? I mean, after several months of use you probably aren't just going to be performing a simple touch up any more, it will be a full honing job and therefore more work.
Thanks in advance,

Ryan

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I have three razors that I rotate through, after about 2 months it is time to hit the hones for me-- so I guess I get 3 weeks of shaving per razor. I am pretty aggressive with the strop-- about 20 on the linen, 60 on the leather. But I have to tell you, I have a dovo full hollow that goes much longer vs. my other two razors for some reason...

-Chief

As usual, I agree with MParker762 :hmmm:

Hi Ryan.....

You know something as simple as a Barber hone will keep your edge sharp for some time....

I guess I don't understand the point of trying to delay touch ups or testing how long one can go without one. Running a razor 4-5 times across a barber hone is no big deal. . Takes about 2 minutes. Kind of breaks up the routine, actually

You're right, it's not a big deal to refresh the blade on a barber hone - or a pasted strop or some other type high-grit finishing hone. As I mentioned above, one of my razors that had about four months of shaves on it recently received a quick touch-up on a barber hone. But if the razor doesn't need refreshing then why would you put it on the barber hone anyway if it won't make a noticeable improvement and has some risk of worsening the edge (bad mood, sleepiness, etc)?

As for why one might want to try and extend the life of his edge, that's another question. In my case I suspected the claims I was hearing around here were wildly exaggerated, but then I heard the same thing from members of my family whose fathers/grandfathers had used straights. So I decided to try and find out what was wrong with my technique that I was only getting 1-2 weeks out of my edges. At this point I've corrected the more glaring flaws and while I'm not really trying to make my edges last as long as possible, neither am I in any hurry to rehone them before they actually need it, because constantly refreshing my edges was actually disguising problems with my prep, stropping, and shaving technique that affected not only the life of the edges but also the quality and comfort of the shave.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

You're right, it's not a big deal to refresh the blade on a barber hone - or a pasted strop or some other type high-grit finishing hone. As I mentioned above, one of my razors that had about four months of shaves on it recently received a quick touch-up on a barber hone. But if the razor doesn't need refreshing then why would you put it on the barber hone anyway if it won't make a noticeable improvement and has some risk of worsening the edge (bad mood, sleepiness, etc)?

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Well, sleepiness, bad mood, etc. can sabotage regular stropping at least as easily as it can using a barber's hone. Stropping involves many more strokes and the surface is flexible, not flat (at least if you're not using a paddle or loom).

I certainly would not advocate going to the barber's hone when the razor's shaving without pulling. My point was simply that it isn't really an inconvenience to hit the barber hone even as often as once a week if the razor is in fact in need of a touch up. I don't really pay attention to how many days or weeks between touchups. The thought, "Hmmm, I wonder if I can go another week / month without a touch-up" just never crosses my mind. That was my only point. Not an important one, admittedly. :)

Well I don't know about all of this.

I agree if you use the same razor all the time or maybe alternate between two or so as the edge starts to dull you won't notice it and its really amazing how you do get used to it and its only if you switch to a "sharp" razor that you realize. I found that out years ago when I was doing "the grand experiment" and I was using the same 3 razorss day in and day out. Every so often I would switch to a fourth I knew was sharp so I could gauge how the others were deteriorating.

Otherwise with me I have a daily rotation with about 30 razors so as soon as 1 deteriorates the slightest amount I'm very much aware of it. I have a few I have been using for well over a year, some for years now and have not had to even touch up once but in general about 15 -20 shaves and the comfort factor starts to go even though it still gives a bbs shave and for me a few trips on the coticule or escher and its as good as new(or shave ready which is better than new actually)

Well, I've only recently added to my collection and before that I had a DOVO Black Star that I used day in and day out for months with no major change to the edge. And I do have a fairly tough beard.

I got that one from Trumpers, and they do an excellent job at honing razors. Need to go there for some lessons of something...!

When I got my newest two they both came shave ready (one from The Invisible Edge and one from SRD, so both are light sabre sharp!) and I could tell, very marginally, that the Black Star was duller. Half a dozen to a dozen strokes on my Shapton 16k for that one and the edges on all three are absolutely A1, I just cant tell the difference between them.

I think whats made the difference is the stropping and the almost obsessive care I take of them. I do 25 canvas with white paste then 50-60 leather before hand, then 10 canvas and 10-15 leather afterwards. I dont do loads of passes during the shave having worked out a routine that gets me BBS with one pass only.

I also make sure they are bone dry before I put them away and I use two different clothes to dry them, just to make sure they are really dry! I'll also take them out now and then and make sure they are still good, with no little spots forming. If there are any, out comes the MAAS and a Q-Tip.

I really think that the white chalk paste is the secret weapon to keeping an edge shave ready. Its very slightly abrasive and the 25 strokes just seems to repair the damage done by the last shave. I know I'll have to go to a coarser grit stone eventually but this seems to be working at the moment...!

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Originally Posted by mparker762

They aren't going without maintenance. They're just being maintained with the strop instead of the hone. Both ways work.

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So, after coming back to this thread after a few days, I feel I should mention a couple things.

First, I'm not doubting the claims members are making, but rather giving them the benefit of the doubt; This is the internet after all, you can claim whatever you want, but I'll leave it at that. And I don't want to turn this into another sharpness thread, or lack thereof thread. My edges provide comfortable shaves, so I shouldn't be complaining. BUT... they're not lasting for months or years like some of the accounts that have been posted very recently. I guess I'm shooting at par.....

Second, as for the maintenance issue, as rightfully pointed out by mparker762, he is correct. I was recovering from a late night when I typed my original post. I MEANT to say any maintenance outside of the usual linen/plain leather stropping.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

I think you're misunderstanding what's happening. The edge is lasting longer at the same level of sharpness. If you're using the same blade every day then it probably does get duller than if you were alternating, because as it slowly dulls your technique adapts to compensate and you don't really realize how dull it's really getting.

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No, no misunderstanding at all. I agree wholeheartedly that a person will subconciously adjust technique for a dulling blade. Hell, I've done it myself and been very aware of it. However, I'd rather not let my razors slip to the point where I have to do 100 laps on the coti instead of 20, but it does happen.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Well I don't know about all of this.

I agree if you use the same razor all the time or maybe alternate between two or so as the edge starts to dull you won't notice it and its really amazing how you do get used to it and its only if you switch to a "sharp" razor that you realize. I found that out years ago when I was doing "the grand experiment" and I was using the same 3 razorss day in and day out. Every so often I would switch to a fourth I knew was sharp so I could gauge how the others were deteriorating.

Otherwise with me I have a daily rotation with about 30 razors so as soon as 1 deteriorates the slightest amount I'm very much aware of it. I have a few I have been using for well over a year, some for years now and have not had to even touch up once but in general about 15 -20 shaves and the comfort factor starts to go even though it still gives a bbs shave and for me a few trips on the coticule or escher and its as good as new(or shave ready which is better than new actually)

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I think all three of us are in agreement about adapting to the sharpness of a single razor? BTW I am an advocate of not changing razors daily, to get "used" to a particular razor again before moving on to the next one. I generally rotate every two weeks, and it works great for me.

However, this was all disputed by Sham in his earlier post, where he says his TI shaved the same as it did 45 days after it hit the hones. This is definitely not my experience, maybe he can shed some light on this, but I think most members will say that an edge is not performing exactly the same after being used for 1.5 months.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

No, no misunderstanding at all. I agree wholeheartedly that a person will subconciously adjust technique for a dulling blade. Hell, I've done it myself and been very aware of it. However, I'd rather not let my razors slip to the point where I have to do 100 laps on the coti instead of 20, but it does happen.



I think all three of us are in agreement about adapting to the sharpness of a single razor? BTW I am an advocate of not changing razors daily, to get "used" to a particular razor again before moving on to the next one. I generally rotate every two weeks, and it works great for me.

However, this was all disputed by Sham in his earlier post, where he says his TI shaved the same as it did 45 days after it hit the hones. This is definitely not my experience, maybe he can shed some light on this, but I think most members will say that an edge is not performing exactly the same after being used for 1.5 months.

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I still think you're still misunderstanding something, or at least focusing on the wrong things. You seem to think that this aforementioned adaptation is the key to keeping a razor going, that somehow the razor is really getting dull but the user just doesn't realize it, so after a few months of use the razor will be in terrible shape. This isn't necessarily true.

The adaptation to a single razor ("fidelity" in DE parlance) tends to improve your shaves, and is a benefit to using the same razor every day, but it is not central to edge longevity. It was just something I noticed during my longevity experiments. The adaptation to the slowly dulling razor also happens, but it is not central to edge longevity - it is something to be aware of as the months roll by, and if you're really worried about how the edge is wearing then maybe you might want to recalibrate your senses with another razor because your internal sharpness sensor starts to drift. But that is all. The edge does not last longer because you just don't realize it is getting dull - it lasts longer at a given level of sharpness.

Your resistance to believing that the edge really can last for months or years is understandable. If you go back and read the "stropping is king" thread you'll see the same skepticism from the participants - including myself.

I believe this skepticism is what is causing your confusion over Sham's post - because you really don't believe (despite giving us the benefit of the doubt) that the edge really can last for an extended period of use without appreciable wear, Sham's post sounds contradictory. But 45 days isn't terribly much of the life of an edge that may last for 300 days, after all - so why shouldn't it be as sharp as the day it was honed, or at least close enough that it's difficult to tell? If the end state of the edge is "dull" then yes one would expect to see a fair level of degradation, but if in fact the edge only wears as much in that year as some guys get in a week or two, then 45 days of use just isn't much, about an equivalent level of wear as some guys get in a single shave. From what I've seen on my razors they generally shave *better* after a few weeks than they did when they came off the hone, because the improvement by smoothing and polishing from the leather and linen is greater than the degradation of the edge from stresses of daily shaving. After a month or so this turns around and the edge slowly declines. For my Heljestrand it has been imperceptible, and I do switch up my razors every now and then to make sure I'm not fooling myself. It isn't my sharpest razor at the moment, but then it never has been. It's still sharper than several razors that have very little use on them, but not as sharp as some others. What I'm trying to say is that it is nearly sharp as the day it came off the hone, close enough that there isn't a huge difference. There's probably as much day-to-day variation in the edge of this razor just from normal variations in stropping (from caffeination level, late night, general crankiness) than there is between this razor and my other Heljestrands that have seen only a few shaves. The decline isn't a straight line by any means, sometimes it goes off a bit for a day or two then some careful attention to my stropping technique brings it back to where it was or even better than it was before. If I'm so inclined I can still strop this razor so it's sharper than I really like to shave with. This was one of the big things I learned in my initial edge longevity experiments, and I alluded to it in an earlier post in this thread - that I didn't have to reach for the hone whenever a razor started getting dull, that usually the true culprit was my stropping, which had gotten a bit off and needed correction.

I haven't been doin this long enough to tell - how do your edges dull over time? It's been measured in knives that there is an immediate and dramatic drop in sharpness, which then lessens to a much more gradual decline. It seems that with proper technique, shaving hair just isn't enough work for the edge to cause that initial loss of sharpness, and it is easily countered by stropping without paste (which Verhoeven didn't even notice having an effect in his experiment on an unused edge) Does the edge eventually succumb to fatigue? Possibly more from the stropping than the shaving?

Are we talking exclusively carbon steel or are the razors that last for months, etc., stainless steel? I was under the impression that stainless steel would hold the edge longer, but would require more effort to hone.

I still very much believe that you should be able to get between 2-3 months with a razor before re-honing if used daily with good stropping technique. Some folks may get a little less and some a little more. This belief is from actually experiencing this, doubt or not. Like much in this sport, there is a learning curve which applies to shaving, stropping, honing and the main thing that you learn is that when you think you have it down, there is still more to learn.

Impatience is still the biggest problem we have with newer folks combined with the fact that it is always the fault of anything other than the operator.

The advices from mparker762 and thebigspendor have been spot on in this thread.

Have fun,

Lynn

Enjoy reading and learning from all of the above, but will also note that in the time I spent doing so, I could have refreshed a handful of razors on a barber's hone or naniwa 12k. :)

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Originally Posted by MinniesMate

Are we talking exclusively carbon steel or are the razors that last for months, etc., stainless steel?

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Both. My Heljestrand that is up to ~140 shaves is carbon steel.

The difference in the number of shaves between stainless and carbon isn't really that great and where say a stainless seems to be longerlived I think its just a specific razor. I've seen carbon razors that way outlived any stainless so this stainless-carbon thing really isn't an issue I would even give a second thought to.

I have a dovo stainless with the MOP and its an exceptional shaver and very longlived between touchups. My TI Damascus I have probably 4 years now and it has never been touched up and shaves as good as the day I got it shave ready and I'm talking well over 100 shaves here. My two Williams Razors can seemingly go forever between touchups too and they are carbon steel. So there are alot of variables to consider here.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

I'm not doubting the claims members are making...

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Your resistance to believing that the edge really can last for months or years is understandable. I believe this skepticism is what is causing your confusion over Sham's post - because you really don't believe (despite giving us the benefit of the doubt) that the edge really can last for an extended period of use without appreciable wear.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I still very much believe that you should be able to get between 2-3 months with a razor before re-honing if used daily with good stropping technique. Some folks may get a little less and some a little more. This belief is from actually experiencing this, doubt or not.

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Alright,

I'm really getting the feeling that at this point I have done a shoddy job at making it clear that I DO NOT doubt what members are saying about edge longevity. These results may not be wide spread among all members, and my edges are certainly not lasting 182.5 or 365 days without pastes or honing. This does not mean I don't believe you guys. That's why I called this thread "Questions about edge longevity" instead of "bulls**itters bulls**ting about edges". And yes, that was an attempt at humor. ;)

So, it HAS been established that more than a couple people are getting years from an edge. Instead of just talking about the number of months or years these edges are lasting why are we not focusing on how to achieve this feat? I have read portions of the Stropping is King thread (and I will finish it eventually, I promise) but this thread is almost 4 years old already and isn't exactly front page news around here anymore.

I for one would appreciate a more thorough discussion on this in the future, as the main focus is usually on honing and attaining the sharpest edge in town instead of maintaining said edge.