Thread: Questions About Edge Longevity & Honing

Originally Posted by mparker762

I think you're misunderstanding what's happening. The edge is lasting longer at the same level of sharpness. If you're using the same blade every day then it probably does get duller than if you were alternating, because as it slowly dulls your technique adapts to compensate and you don't really realize how dull it's really getting.

No, no misunderstanding at all. I agree wholeheartedly that a person will subconciously adjust technique for a dulling blade. Hell, I've done it myself and been very aware of it. However, I'd rather not let my razors slip to the point where I have to do 100 laps on the coti instead of 20, but it does happen.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Well I don't know about all of this.

I agree if you use the same razor all the time or maybe alternate between two or so as the edge starts to dull you won't notice it and its really amazing how you do get used to it and its only if you switch to a "sharp" razor that you realize. I found that out years ago when I was doing "the grand experiment" and I was using the same 3 razorss day in and day out. Every so often I would switch to a fourth I knew was sharp so I could gauge how the others were deteriorating.

Otherwise with me I have a daily rotation with about 30 razors so as soon as 1 deteriorates the slightest amount I'm very much aware of it. I have a few I have been using for well over a year, some for years now and have not had to even touch up once but in general about 15 -20 shaves and the comfort factor starts to go even though it still gives a bbs shave and for me a few trips on the coticule or escher and its as good as new(or shave ready which is better than new actually)

I think all three of us are in agreement about adapting to the sharpness of a single razor? BTW I am an advocate of not changing razors daily, to get "used" to a particular razor again before moving on to the next one. I generally rotate every two weeks, and it works great for me.

However, this was all disputed by Sham in his earlier post, where he says his TI shaved the same as it did 45 days after it hit the hones. This is definitely not my experience, maybe he can shed some light on this, but I think most members will say that an edge is not performing exactly the same after being used for 1.5 months.

Originally Posted by Ryan82

No, no misunderstanding at all. I agree wholeheartedly that a person will subconciously adjust technique for a dulling blade. Hell, I've done it myself and been very aware of it. However, I'd rather not let my razors slip to the point where I have to do 100 laps on the coti instead of 20, but it does happen.



I think all three of us are in agreement about adapting to the sharpness of a single razor? BTW I am an advocate of not changing razors daily, to get "used" to a particular razor again before moving on to the next one. I generally rotate every two weeks, and it works great for me.

However, this was all disputed by Sham in his earlier post, where he says his TI shaved the same as it did 45 days after it hit the hones. This is definitely not my experience, maybe he can shed some light on this, but I think most members will say that an edge is not performing exactly the same after being used for 1.5 months.

I still think you're still misunderstanding something, or at least focusing on the wrong things. You seem to think that this aforementioned adaptation is the key to keeping a razor going, that somehow the razor is really getting dull but the user just doesn't realize it, so after a few months of use the razor will be in terrible shape. This isn't necessarily true.

The adaptation to a single razor ("fidelity" in DE parlance) tends to improve your shaves, and is a benefit to using the same razor every day, but it is not central to edge longevity. It was just something I noticed during my longevity experiments. The adaptation to the slowly dulling razor also happens, but it is not central to edge longevity - it is something to be aware of as the months roll by, and if you're really worried about how the edge is wearing then maybe you might want to recalibrate your senses with another razor because your internal sharpness sensor starts to drift. But that is all. The edge does not last longer because you just don't realize it is getting dull - it lasts longer at a given level of sharpness.

Your resistance to believing that the edge really can last for months or years is understandable. If you go back and read the "stropping is king" thread you'll see the same skepticism from the participants - including myself.

I believe this skepticism is what is causing your confusion over Sham's post - because you really don't believe (despite giving us the benefit of the doubt) that the edge really can last for an extended period of use without appreciable wear, Sham's post sounds contradictory. But 45 days isn't terribly much of the life of an edge that may last for 300 days, after all - so why shouldn't it be as sharp as the day it was honed, or at least close enough that it's difficult to tell? If the end state of the edge is "dull" then yes one would expect to see a fair level of degradation, but if in fact the edge only wears as much in that year as some guys get in a week or two, then 45 days of use just isn't much, about an equivalent level of wear as some guys get in a single shave. From what I've seen on my razors they generally shave *better* after a few weeks than they did when they came off the hone, because the improvement by smoothing and polishing from the leather and linen is greater than the degradation of the edge from stresses of daily shaving. After a month or so this turns around and the edge slowly declines. For my Heljestrand it has been imperceptible, and I do switch up my razors every now and then to make sure I'm not fooling myself. It isn't my sharpest razor at the moment, but then it never has been. It's still sharper than several razors that have very little use on them, but not as sharp as some others. What I'm trying to say is that it is nearly sharp as the day it came off the hone, close enough that there isn't a huge difference. There's probably as much day-to-day variation in the edge of this razor just from normal variations in stropping (from caffeination level, late night, general crankiness) than there is between this razor and my other Heljestrands that have seen only a few shaves. The decline isn't a straight line by any means, sometimes it goes off a bit for a day or two then some careful attention to my stropping technique brings it back to where it was or even better than it was before. If I'm so inclined I can still strop this razor so it's sharper than I really like to shave with. This was one of the big things I learned in my initial edge longevity experiments, and I alluded to it in an earlier post in this thread - that I didn't have to reach for the hone whenever a razor started getting dull, that usually the true culprit was my stropping, which had gotten a bit off and needed correction.

I haven't been doin this long enough to tell - how do your edges dull over time? It's been measured in knives that there is an immediate and dramatic drop in sharpness, which then lessens to a much more gradual decline. It seems that with proper technique, shaving hair just isn't enough work for the edge to cause that initial loss of sharpness, and it is easily countered by stropping without paste (which Verhoeven didn't even notice having an effect in his experiment on an unused edge) Does the edge eventually succumb to fatigue? Possibly more from the stropping than the shaving?

Are we talking exclusively carbon steel or are the razors that last for months, etc., stainless steel? I was under the impression that stainless steel would hold the edge longer, but would require more effort to hone.

I still very much believe that you should be able to get between 2-3 months with a razor before re-honing if used daily with good stropping technique. Some folks may get a little less and some a little more. This belief is from actually experiencing this, doubt or not. Like much in this sport, there is a learning curve which applies to shaving, stropping, honing and the main thing that you learn is that when you think you have it down, there is still more to learn.

Impatience is still the biggest problem we have with newer folks combined with the fact that it is always the fault of anything other than the operator.

The advices from mparker762 and thebigspendor have been spot on in this thread.

Have fun,

Lynn

Enjoy reading and learning from all of the above, but will also note that in the time I spent doing so, I could have refreshed a handful of razors on a barber's hone or naniwa 12k.

Originally Posted by Ryan82

I'm not doubting the claims members are making...

Originally Posted by mparker762

Your resistance to believing that the edge really can last for months or years is understandable. I believe this skepticism is what is causing your confusion over Sham's post - because you really don't believe (despite giving us the benefit of the doubt) that the edge really can last for an extended period of use without appreciable wear.

Originally Posted by Lynn

I still very much believe that you should be able to get between 2-3 months with a razor before re-honing if used daily with good stropping technique. Some folks may get a little less and some a little more. This belief is from actually experiencing this, doubt or not.

Alright,

I'm really getting the feeling that at this point I have done a shoddy job at making it clear that I DO NOT doubt what members are saying about edge longevity. These results may not be wide spread among all members, and my edges are certainly not lasting 182.5 or 365 days without pastes or honing. This does not mean I don't believe you guys. That's why I called this thread "Questions about edge longevity" instead of "bulls**itters bulls**ting about edges". And yes, that was an attempt at humor.

So, it HAS been established that more than a couple people are getting years from an edge. Instead of just talking about the number of months or years these edges are lasting why are we not focusing on how to achieve this feat? I have read portions of the Stropping is King thread (and I will finish it eventually, I promise) but this thread is almost 4 years old already and isn't exactly front page news around here anymore.

I for one would appreciate a more thorough discussion on this in the future, as the main focus is usually on honing and attaining the sharpest edge in town instead of maintaining said edge.

Originally Posted by MinniesMate

Are we talking exclusively carbon steel or are the razors that last for months, etc., stainless steel?

Both. My Heljestrand that is up to ~140 shaves is carbon steel.

The difference in the number of shaves between stainless and carbon isn't really that great and where say a stainless seems to be longerlived I think its just a specific razor. I've seen carbon razors that way outlived any stainless so this stainless-carbon thing really isn't an issue I would even give a second thought to.

I have a dovo stainless with the MOP and its an exceptional shaver and very longlived between touchups. My TI Damascus I have probably 4 years now and it has never been touched up and shaves as good as the day I got it shave ready and I'm talking well over 100 shaves here. My two Williams Razors can seemingly go forever between touchups too and they are carbon steel. So there are alot of variables to consider here.