I could use some advice here

[Hammett]

Hi all!!

Recently I got an ebay deal on a straight razor with a fair amount of patina and pitting. I managed to get the razor to a mirror finish without having much trouble removing the necessary steel. The edge had a fairly big chip and I butterknifed it.

Problems come when I want to hone it. Because of its big "smile" (see pics below because it's not really a smile) I need to be extra careful as I never honed this kind of straights. It was then when I realized the blade rocks on the hone, rocks very bad from one side and slighlty on the other (enough for not being able to hone it without concern).

Now I don't know what to do. I can tape both sides of the spine to make the blade fully sit on the hone, or I can remove the necessary steel to make it sit flat, but that I think would ruin the shape of the blade, or I can hone it with Swooping X-Strokes being extra careful making sure the spine is in contact with the hone at all times.

Honestly, I don't know what's best to do in this case, or even if it's even worth it.

Here are some pics:
The first you can see the big "hole" at the heel, it reaches almost half the edge
On the second, the hole left is not very big, you can see it a little bit
Third picture is a general view on the "smile" of the blade.

Sorry for quality of pictures, I only have my phone right now for taking pictures.

[gssixgun]

Looks like you have a warped heel which is not at all uncommon in the older razors...You can normally see the warp if you sight down toward the heel with the razor held up in front of your nose...
Here is the thing, if the razor actually has a warp then trying to grind off steel to compensate is a waste of time so look to confirm it before you start doing anything..
If the razor is straight through the heel and tang and spine then the "warp" is mis-honing and possibly can be corrected ...

This all comes down to what you see, not what I think from 5000 miles away..

I do know that 1 layer of tape and some Rocking x strokes mixed with some 45 degree heel forward stokes will get you to a clean sharp bevel, but they will not fix a warp

[Hammett]

The problem is not a warped edge (for the moment) but that the spine is not straight and the blade does not fully sit on the hone because of the spine (to see pictures).

My question is basically what to do in this situation. I can tape the point to match the thickness of the heel or remove steel from the heel or whatever advice you can give me.

Maybe it is not important as I need to do swooping x-strokes or rolling x-strokes... but I really don't know and that's why I am asking your advice

[gssixgun]

I do know that 1 layer of tape and some Rocking x strokes mixed with some 45 degree heel forward stokes will get you to a clean sharp bevel, but they will not fix a warp

I would go that route first, as it is the least drastic to getting the razor shaving, I would not suggest removing a ton of spine metal trying to get the razor to sit flat, as I cannot judge if that will work from the pics...

When in doubt I always go for the least amount of metal removal, it comes off much easier than it goes back on

[JimmyHAD]

I do the rolling x thing with blades like that. There is a write up in the SRP Wiki honing section on it.

[Hammett]

Yes, I have seen the wiki on the rolling X strokes, thanks.

I will do that and I will let you know how it goes

[gugi]

Math time: the intersection of two planes is a straight line.

That means that no razor with a smile can have the whole edge on the hone at a single moment. The bigger the smile the bigger the rocking.
It may or may not be warped. Also poor grinding or previous abuses that change the spine thickness or blade width typically make things worse.

The solution of course is to hone each section of the edge subsequently, that's what the rocking/scything/whateveryouwannanameit stroke is - you drag the edge across the hone from the heel to the tip throughout the stroke.

Since you breadknifed the razor you'll have a lot of work to do. Being short on experience I'd say at least 10 hours before you get it to shave could be more though. You will definitely need to start with a much coarser hone than the one you have on the photos.

[Hammett]

Math time: the intersection of two planes is a straight line.

That means that no razor with a smile can have the whole edge on the hone at a single moment. The bigger the smile the bigger the rocking.

I am sorry but that statement is wrong. You are seeing the blade as a single plane.

A curve is made of interjections of lines at different angles. The same applies when talking to planes. A curved plane is made from interjections of straight planes at different angles.

Now, if I can make the edge fully centered in relation to the spine thickness, there will be a point where the edge and the spine share the same plane, and that plane is where the whole edge makes contact.

I can't explain better as English is not my native language, but I hope you get my idea! That if 2 straight lines (edge and spine) can have contact on a hone (flat surface), a curved line (if properly done) can too, as the curve is just a sum of straight lines.

[Utopian]

I am sorry but that statement is wrong. You are seeing the blade as a single plane.

A curve is made of interjections of lines at different angles. The same applies when talking to planes. A curved plane is made from interjections of straight planes at different angles.

Now, if I can make the edge fully centered in relation to the spine thickness, there will be a point where the edge and the spine share the same plane, and that plane is where the whole edge makes contact.

I can't explain better as English is not my native language, but I hope you get my idea! That if 2 straight lines (edge and spine) can have contact on a hone (flat surface), a curved line (if properly done) can too, as the curve is just a sum of straight lines.

I'm not going to invoke Euclid to help me with this. I really don't care to apply mathematical concepts to what I can see with my own eyes.

If the spine is straight, meaning that it can lie flat on the hone when the blade is held parallel to the hone, then hold the razor on the hone in that position. Now hold the blade edge so that it is held parallel to the hone at a distance that is half the total thickness of the spine

At that point, the entire length of the spine is touching the hone and none of the blade is touching the hone and the blade edge is parallel to the hone.

Now, lower the edge down to the hone. A smiling edge will touch the hone in only one region, not the entire length of the edge.

[Hammett]

I was talking theoretically, of course!

I have an old W&B with a smile and when I put it on the hone, 95% of the edge makes contact at the same time.... Of course manufacture slight deformations, spine wear, metal deformation through the years, etc will change the fact that it is possible to have a smile edge to make full contact with a hone.

On the practical side, yes, you're absolutely right that it is very odd to have a smiling edge that makes full contact across the edge at the same time, thus the need for rocketing X strokes.