Issues with kitayama 12k

Hi all.

I was looking for some advice for using the kitayama 12k stone. I was looking to use it as a finishing hone after the 8k norton I use, but I've been having trouble with it. I can get the razor to pass the hanging hair test on the 8k, but then I take it to the kitayama for 5-10 strokes and every time I do, I dull the edge (it stops cutting hanging hairs). I tried it with the nagura slurry, with just water and I've even lapped the stone down so all the japanese writing was gone and I had a fresh surface and I still think I'm dulling it. Any advice? Thanks.

I've found a few sites saying that it's actually an 8k stone that has natural japanese stone bits ground into it and is supposedly able to go ~12k with slurry (the natural abrasive in the slurry is worn smaller with use). One review mentions "the same stone" being sold as 8k at some sites and 12k at others. Google kitayama 12000 and kitayama 12k and you'll see some of what I'm finding.

I certainly wouldn't trust HHT as a judge of edge finish, but that's just me. (Although I must say I've yet to see someone argue that X finisher is better than Y finisher because it passes HHT better.) It must work for some people... but even the wiki seems pretty vague about how to interpret it. And I'd love to see some video of it actually working properly without cuts several attempts in a row. That would be the most impressive thing I've seen here. Maybe you should shave or tpt to confirm that it is actually getting duller.

you need to learn how to use 8 k .stay on it until it will pass hht. Gl

Op's saying it does pass HHT off of the 8k, but then he uses the Kitayama and after a few passes on the kitayama it stops passing HHT and he can't get it to pass it again after that.

(At least that's what I understood him to be saying, please correct me if I'm misreading your post OP).

You have introduced to many variables at one time to figure out where the problem is or even if there is a problem...

First off the HHT is just not accurate enough a test to determine sharpness differences just as Ian already stated..
If you go back to the Wiki and re-read what Bart wrote in there about his version of the HHT what you will really find, is a road map of how to develop your own version... It takes almost as much practice to develop one that is accurate as learning to hone..:)
Just so you know, even switching the hair around in your hand can mess up an HHT..
You need to have a shaving stroke that tells you everything about sharpness...For instance, for me, mine is the ATG stroke on my neck, I can actually tell the difference between sharpness levels with that stroke...

Second some stones just don't follow the "rules" and can still be shaving sharp.. Naniwa SS do that, sometimes they follow the tests until 3k, then don't again until 12k after stropping
What I mean is they can fail every sharpness test you throw at them, after 3k but if you hone through and finish out the sequence you get an extremely smooth shaving razor that will also pass the HHT after you strop the 12k edge...

Third the use of slurry, at those grit levels slurry dulls the edge...
This is going to get complicated, but I will try and explain... Slurry is used to cut the bevel face, but it will dull the very edge of the razor.. This is why you use slurry, then use just water after on the same stone... Personally I never use slurry at that high a grit level, I have heard some people do, but to me it seems like they are trying to re-create the Pyramid method by using one stone...

I would do like Hi Bud GL/Sham said and take the razor to the best edge you can get on the 8k, then strop and test shave one side of your face or one test patch..
Then go to the 12k and do 15-20 perfect light water only laps re-strop and then do the same test patch on the other side of the face and see if there is an improvement.. If there seems to be, then you are on to something, and you can tweak the 12k into your routine ...

PS: Ian:
Mike Ratliff used to have a really nice vid of him doing an HHT up in his signature I checked and he took it down, but if you look at his website it might be on there still..www.thewellhonedrazor.com

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Third the use of slurry, at those grit levels slurry dulls the edge...

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Jnats can be used with slurry and the edge does not dull. I realize that most people do not own those stones but I think its worth mentioning.
@ OP
Kitayama is a weird stone, the grit breaks down from 8 to 12 K(allegedly) but the stone glazes easily and the feedback is somewhat questionable.
You might want to pm Lynn, I think he has used that stone, and ask him for advice.
My advice is if possible get a proven performer , 8k Super Stone/Shapton etc.

Welcome to SRP. This is an example of using a stone that not that many members have had firsthand experience with. One of the reasons that you'll see the Norton, Naniwa, or Shapton recommended more often than not .... aside from the fact they work well. So many of us have used them that we can relate our firsthand experience with them. Not so with more obscure stones such as the Kitayama.

Leaving the HHT aside, have you tried shave testing after finishing on the Kitayama ? Sometimes a finishing stone will smooth out striations to the point that they don't catch the hair and cut HHT as well as they did at a lower grit level. IOW, the razor may give a great shave even if it isn't passing HHT.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Jnats can be used with slurry and the edge does not dull. I realize that most people do not own those stones but I think its worth mentioning.
@ OP

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I think you mis-read what I wrote, so I'll try again, The slurry will sharpen the sides of the bevel and polish the sides of the bevel ... BUT the slurry WILL dull the front of the edge... Therefore you will never get the sharpest edge from slurry, the sharpest, smoothest edges come from a water only stone, and on very rare occasion a dry stone but almost never one with slurry, on (MOST) stones...

Edit:
According to Sham who I do value his opinion, there are certain Japanese Naturals that do work with slurries, at very high grits...
So I stand corrected as there are stones I haven't tried, YET !!!, so I changed that to most stones...I am assuming that you guys are shaving off these without going to a clear water finish though... If you guys are doing clear water finish strokes after the slurry then I stand by my original statement... so somebody needs to clarify that for the OP.. Because now we have a bit of confusion...Also does anyone have the same Kitayama stone that can clarify what it does, for him???? When I messed with one I finished with clear water...

I started out with 4k/8k and 12k kitiyama as bob keyes hones all his razors and still does he recomended this to me. I did the same thing passed hht on 8k and then kiti 12k with only water 20 laps and i could not pass hht after i stroped hht came back . I was told it has somthing to do with your 12k smoothing the edge right out and the teeth carn't grab the hair somthing like that.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think you mis-read what I wrote, so I'll try again, The slurry will sharpen the sides of the bevel and polish the sides of the bevel ... BUT the slurry WILL dull the front of the edge... Therefore you will never get the sharpest edge from slurry, the sharpest, smoothest edges come from a water only stone, and on very rare occasion a dry stone but almost never one with slurry, on (MOST) stones...

Edit:
According to Sham who I do value his opinion, there are certain Japanese Naturals that do work with slurries, at very high grits...
So I stand corrected as there are stones I haven't tried, YET !!!, so I changed that to most stones...I am assuming that you guys are shaving off these without going to a clear water finish though... If you guys are doing clear water finish strokes after the slurry then I stand by my original statement... so somebody needs to clarify that for the OP.. Because now we have a bit of confusion...Also does anyone have the same Kitayama stone that can clarify what it does, for him???? When I messed with one I finished with clear water...

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I do slurry only, and I find that with no slurry I do not get smoother edge.
I am getting a much finer stone and will see how it works then.
For synthetics if I use slurry its for faster work but I always finish with no slurry for finer edge.
I have not used Kitayama on razors but I did not like how it behaved with knives, it would glaze a lot and have average at best feedback.
I have seen Lynn mention Kitayama so I'd think he has experience with the stone.

@ O_S,
I might be wrong here but Kitayama much like natural stones leaves misty finish unlike any other synthetic stone @ that grit level that I have heard of. It is known to have added natural abrasives in it.

The slurry debate rears its head.

I will say that my edges do seem sharper off my J-nats with slurry but only if I do a real good job at lower grits between 1K and about 6K. If I have moved on too soon, it never seems to get where it should be.

Of course there is slurry and then there is slurry. It should be a lighter slurry that has been used some to allow the grinding action of honing to break the abrasive particles into finer bits.

I am not an expert on using slurry but if Bart's findings with the coticule are any indication of what to expect then a hone used with a thick slurry will be an aggressive cutter. Diluting to a thinner slurry as honing progresses will refine the edge until finally getting to water only will be effective for finishing to a fine edge.

Following that technique with the coticule has been effective IME. I don't see why it wouldn't apply to the Kitiyama 12k although it is a different abrasive and binder. I have no experience with J-nats unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Pyment

The slurry debate rears its head.

I will say that my edges do seem sharper off my J-nats with slurry but only if I do a real good job at lower grits between 1K and about 6K. If I have moved on too soon, it never seems to get where it should be.

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What you are saying is 100% correct.
The problem is you don't know or don't want to know what is the real problem.
i have always said there is 95% people doesn't know how to use their final finishing stones.
Above is excellent example.
if you move in to soon , it never seems to get where it should be?
Actually
it will if you are planning to spend hours to get what you want. I assume you don't have enough patience and you get tired after 1 hour spending time with jnates in this case.

In reality you should spend less then -2-3 minutes in any final finishing stone.
what happens when you do correct job on lower grit stones in your case 6k level Jnates do their job( i really do think you are making more then necessary strokes on it).
In fact you need to move to jnates at least after 8k and better result (at short time spend ) you will get if you move to it after 16k.
hope i am clear.
(i didn't mean to sound rude this is just best words i can use)
hope this helps.

What I am being told Jimmy is that SOME of the Japanese naturals actually create their own slurry which is continually being ground into smaller and smaller particles and that you leave that alone...
I have never experienced this even on the 4 Japanese stones I have tried out...I have always finished the razor with clear water...

I don't see it as fundamentally possible but this is what I am hearing, the way my brain is working right now, is that these particles would have to be in the sub 30,000/.49 micron grit or close to .30 microns for this to be even sort of possible...
But I am a true believer in hands on trials more than the numbers, so if it works it works...

I have the Kitayama. I bought it from the Japan Woodworker who sold it as a 12K and the box said 12K. It was one of the first hones I bought and found it to be a slow finisher and I really wasn't that crazy about it. I wouldn't call it a 12K performance wise. Maybe a 10K pushing it.

I haven't used it in years. I use mainly the coticule or escher now. I never used it with slurry. I would say if you compare it to the chinese its better.

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

In reality you should spend less then -2-3 minutes in any final finishing stone.
what happens when you do correct job on lower grit stones in your case 6k level Jnates do their job( i really do think you are making more then necessary strokes on it).
In fact you need to move to jnates at least after 8k and better result (at short time spend ) you will get if you move to it after 16k.
hope i am clear.
(i didn't mean to sound rude this is just best words i can use)
hope this helps.

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I spend more time on the J-nats partially because I just enjoy the feel (sicko that I am). Yes I know I am making more strokes on it than I should, but I like it.

The other reason is that I don't have an intermediate stone I enjoy as much (it is too tempting to move on). Thus, I am talking to So about getting a great intermediate stone to take me from the aoto (2-3K) to the my finishing stones.

Last I heard, he was looking at a Maruichi Maruka Nakayama Tomae, an Oohira Suita, or an Okudo suita (he decided to keep the first one he showed me) that was a little less fine than the ones he has pictured on his site (those are too fine for an intermediate stone).

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I have never experienced this even on the 4 Japanese stones I have tried out...I have always finished the razor with clear water...

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someone can correct me, but I think this effect is most often seen on the suita stones. They have "su" or tiny holes. water floats the grit out of the holes. Some "Nakayama" don't have these from what I understand.

I asked So about this because he talks about some Nakayamas as Nakayama Suita. He said most Nakayamas come from layers other than suita mostly from the Tomae strata. He refers to those as Nakayama (which I took to mean they don't have "su" and can't be called suita).

If you are using "Nakayama", this might be part of the reason you may not see this.

Although I like the theory you have, that was not my experience with the Suita stone, I tried and that stone was one of the nicest feeling finishers I have used... I tried buying it right there on the spot from the guy that owned it..:) oh course LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

What I am being told Jimmy is that SOME of the Japanese naturals actually create their own slurry which is continually being ground into smaller and smaller particles and that you leave that alone...
I have never experienced this even on the 4 Japanese stones I have tried out...I have always finished the razor with clear water...

I don't see it as fundamentally possible but this is what I am hearing, the way my brain is working right now, is that these particles would have to be in the sub 30,000/.49 micron grit or close to .30 microns for this to be even sort of possible...
But I am a true believer in hands on trials more than the numbers, so if it works it works...

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I'm not an expert on J-Nats but I use them & finishers are generally hard stones that won't release much slurry when putting the final touch on a razor.
There are softer,coarser stones that are a tad harder than compressed mud. These do break down easily but are not in the finishing category.

Oz man, ya know I get so frustrated with Naturals of any kind, just for this reason, there are no rules to them, or order, and everyone just basically does what they want, and every single person SWEARS that their stone is somehow from a special mine, strata, or dinosaurs butt :)

And heaven forbid you ask what grit it is, because that will go on for a hour of geology dissertation hehehe...

gotta love HAD !!!

LOL .... Dinosaur's butt :rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

Gotta get me one of those :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

LOL .... Dinosaur's butt :rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

Gotta get me one of those :rofl2:

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BBQ???????

No slurry for me..........:)

Have fun,

Lynn

BBQ ? Hell Yeah !!! :beer1:

It's pretty well known that Aotos come from Dino butt. That's accounts for the short supply of "prime" and dissatisfaction with pieces that have too much gristle.

Of course the alternative is veggie burger.