Thread: Issues with kitayama 12k

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Third the use of slurry, at those grit levels slurry dulls the edge...

Jnats can be used with slurry and the edge does not dull. I realize that most people do not own those stones but I think its worth mentioning.
@ OP
Kitayama is a weird stone, the grit breaks down from 8 to 12 K(allegedly) but the stone glazes easily and the feedback is somewhat questionable.
You might want to pm Lynn, I think he has used that stone, and ask him for advice.
My advice is if possible get a proven performer , 8k Super Stone/Shapton etc.

Welcome to SRP. This is an example of using a stone that not that many members have had firsthand experience with. One of the reasons that you'll see the Norton, Naniwa, or Shapton recommended more often than not .... aside from the fact they work well. So many of us have used them that we can relate our firsthand experience with them. Not so with more obscure stones such as the Kitayama.

Leaving the HHT aside, have you tried shave testing after finishing on the Kitayama ? Sometimes a finishing stone will smooth out striations to the point that they don't catch the hair and cut HHT as well as they did at a lower grit level. IOW, the razor may give a great shave even if it isn't passing HHT.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Jnats can be used with slurry and the edge does not dull. I realize that most people do not own those stones but I think its worth mentioning.
@ OP

I think you mis-read what I wrote, so I'll try again, The slurry will sharpen the sides of the bevel and polish the sides of the bevel ... BUT the slurry WILL dull the front of the edge... Therefore you will never get the sharpest edge from slurry, the sharpest, smoothest edges come from a water only stone, and on very rare occasion a dry stone but almost never one with slurry, on (MOST) stones...

Edit:
According to Sham who I do value his opinion, there are certain Japanese Naturals that do work with slurries, at very high grits...
So I stand corrected as there are stones I haven't tried, YET !!!, so I changed that to most stones...I am assuming that you guys are shaving off these without going to a clear water finish though... If you guys are doing clear water finish strokes after the slurry then I stand by my original statement... so somebody needs to clarify that for the OP.. Because now we have a bit of confusion...Also does anyone have the same Kitayama stone that can clarify what it does, for him???? When I messed with one I finished with clear water...

I started out with 4k/8k and 12k kitiyama as bob keyes hones all his razors and still does he recomended this to me. I did the same thing passed hht on 8k and then kiti 12k with only water 20 laps and i could not pass hht after i stroped hht came back . I was told it has somthing to do with your 12k smoothing the edge right out and the teeth carn't grab the hair somthing like that.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think you mis-read what I wrote, so I'll try again, The slurry will sharpen the sides of the bevel and polish the sides of the bevel ... BUT the slurry WILL dull the front of the edge... Therefore you will never get the sharpest edge from slurry, the sharpest, smoothest edges come from a water only stone, and on very rare occasion a dry stone but almost never one with slurry, on (MOST) stones...

Edit:
According to Sham who I do value his opinion, there are certain Japanese Naturals that do work with slurries, at very high grits...
So I stand corrected as there are stones I haven't tried, YET !!!, so I changed that to most stones...I am assuming that you guys are shaving off these without going to a clear water finish though... If you guys are doing clear water finish strokes after the slurry then I stand by my original statement... so somebody needs to clarify that for the OP.. Because now we have a bit of confusion...Also does anyone have the same Kitayama stone that can clarify what it does, for him???? When I messed with one I finished with clear water...

I do slurry only, and I find that with no slurry I do not get smoother edge.
I am getting a much finer stone and will see how it works then.
For synthetics if I use slurry its for faster work but I always finish with no slurry for finer edge.
I have not used Kitayama on razors but I did not like how it behaved with knives, it would glaze a lot and have average at best feedback.
I have seen Lynn mention Kitayama so I'd think he has experience with the stone.

@ O_S,
I might be wrong here but Kitayama much like natural stones leaves misty finish unlike any other synthetic stone @ that grit level that I have heard of. It is known to have added natural abrasives in it.

The slurry debate rears its head.

I will say that my edges do seem sharper off my J-nats with slurry but only if I do a real good job at lower grits between 1K and about 6K. If I have moved on too soon, it never seems to get where it should be.

Of course there is slurry and then there is slurry. It should be a lighter slurry that has been used some to allow the grinding action of honing to break the abrasive particles into finer bits.

I am not an expert on using slurry but if Bart's findings with the coticule are any indication of what to expect then a hone used with a thick slurry will be an aggressive cutter. Diluting to a thinner slurry as honing progresses will refine the edge until finally getting to water only will be effective for finishing to a fine edge.

Following that technique with the coticule has been effective IME. I don't see why it wouldn't apply to the Kitiyama 12k although it is a different abrasive and binder. I have no experience with J-nats unfortunately.

What I am being told Jimmy is that SOME of the Japanese naturals actually create their own slurry which is continually being ground into smaller and smaller particles and that you leave that alone...
I have never experienced this even on the 4 Japanese stones I have tried out...I have always finished the razor with clear water...

I don't see it as fundamentally possible but this is what I am hearing, the way my brain is working right now, is that these particles would have to be in the sub 30,000/.49 micron grit or close to .30 microns for this to be even sort of possible...
But I am a true believer in hands on trials more than the numbers, so if it works it works...

I have the Kitayama. I bought it from the Japan Woodworker who sold it as a 12K and the box said 12K. It was one of the first hones I bought and found it to be a slow finisher and I really wasn't that crazy about it. I wouldn't call it a 12K performance wise. Maybe a 10K pushing it.

I haven't used it in years. I use mainly the coticule or escher now. I never used it with slurry. I would say if you compare it to the chinese its better.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I have never experienced this even on the 4 Japanese stones I have tried out...I have always finished the razor with clear water...

someone can correct me, but I think this effect is most often seen on the suita stones. They have "su" or tiny holes. water floats the grit out of the holes. Some "Nakayama" don't have these from what I understand.

I asked So about this because he talks about some Nakayamas as Nakayama Suita. He said most Nakayamas come from layers other than suita mostly from the Tomae strata. He refers to those as Nakayama (which I took to mean they don't have "su" and can't be called suita).

If you are using "Nakayama", this might be part of the reason you may not see this.