Thread: Issues with kitayama 12k

The slurry debate rears its head.

I will say that my edges do seem sharper off my J-nats with slurry but only if I do a real good job at lower grits between 1K and about 6K. If I have moved on too soon, it never seems to get where it should be.

Of course there is slurry and then there is slurry. It should be a lighter slurry that has been used some to allow the grinding action of honing to break the abrasive particles into finer bits.

I am not an expert on using slurry but if Bart's findings with the coticule are any indication of what to expect then a hone used with a thick slurry will be an aggressive cutter. Diluting to a thinner slurry as honing progresses will refine the edge until finally getting to water only will be effective for finishing to a fine edge.

Following that technique with the coticule has been effective IME. I don't see why it wouldn't apply to the Kitiyama 12k although it is a different abrasive and binder. I have no experience with J-nats unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Pyment

The slurry debate rears its head.

I will say that my edges do seem sharper off my J-nats with slurry but only if I do a real good job at lower grits between 1K and about 6K. If I have moved on too soon, it never seems to get where it should be.

What you are saying is 100% correct.
The problem is you don't know or don't want to know what is the real problem.
i have always said there is 95% people doesn't know how to use their final finishing stones.
Above is excellent example.
if you move in to soon , it never seems to get where it should be?
Actually
it will if you are planning to spend hours to get what you want. I assume you don't have enough patience and you get tired after 1 hour spending time with jnates in this case.

In reality you should spend less then -2-3 minutes in any final finishing stone.
what happens when you do correct job on lower grit stones in your case 6k level Jnates do their job( i really do think you are making more then necessary strokes on it).
In fact you need to move to jnates at least after 8k and better result (at short time spend ) you will get if you move to it after 16k.
hope i am clear.
(i didn't mean to sound rude this is just best words i can use)
hope this helps.

What I am being told Jimmy is that SOME of the Japanese naturals actually create their own slurry which is continually being ground into smaller and smaller particles and that you leave that alone...
I have never experienced this even on the 4 Japanese stones I have tried out...I have always finished the razor with clear water...

I don't see it as fundamentally possible but this is what I am hearing, the way my brain is working right now, is that these particles would have to be in the sub 30,000/.49 micron grit or close to .30 microns for this to be even sort of possible...
But I am a true believer in hands on trials more than the numbers, so if it works it works...

I have the Kitayama. I bought it from the Japan Woodworker who sold it as a 12K and the box said 12K. It was one of the first hones I bought and found it to be a slow finisher and I really wasn't that crazy about it. I wouldn't call it a 12K performance wise. Maybe a 10K pushing it.

I haven't used it in years. I use mainly the coticule or escher now. I never used it with slurry. I would say if you compare it to the chinese its better.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

In reality you should spend less then -2-3 minutes in any final finishing stone.
what happens when you do correct job on lower grit stones in your case 6k level Jnates do their job( i really do think you are making more then necessary strokes on it).
In fact you need to move to jnates at least after 8k and better result (at short time spend ) you will get if you move to it after 16k.
hope i am clear.
(i didn't mean to sound rude this is just best words i can use)
hope this helps.

I spend more time on the J-nats partially because I just enjoy the feel (sicko that I am). Yes I know I am making more strokes on it than I should, but I like it.

The other reason is that I don't have an intermediate stone I enjoy as much (it is too tempting to move on). Thus, I am talking to So about getting a great intermediate stone to take me from the aoto (2-3K) to the my finishing stones.

Last I heard, he was looking at a Maruichi Maruka Nakayama Tomae, an Oohira Suita, or an Okudo suita (he decided to keep the first one he showed me) that was a little less fine than the ones he has pictured on his site (those are too fine for an intermediate stone).

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I have never experienced this even on the 4 Japanese stones I have tried out...I have always finished the razor with clear water...

someone can correct me, but I think this effect is most often seen on the suita stones. They have "su" or tiny holes. water floats the grit out of the holes. Some "Nakayama" don't have these from what I understand.

I asked So about this because he talks about some Nakayamas as Nakayama Suita. He said most Nakayamas come from layers other than suita mostly from the Tomae strata. He refers to those as Nakayama (which I took to mean they don't have "su" and can't be called suita).

If you are using "Nakayama", this might be part of the reason you may not see this.

Although I like the theory you have, that was not my experience with the Suita stone, I tried and that stone was one of the nicest feeling finishers I have used... I tried buying it right there on the spot from the guy that owned it.. oh course LOL

Originally Posted by gssixgun

What I am being told Jimmy is that SOME of the Japanese naturals actually create their own slurry which is continually being ground into smaller and smaller particles and that you leave that alone...
I have never experienced this even on the 4 Japanese stones I have tried out...I have always finished the razor with clear water...

I don't see it as fundamentally possible but this is what I am hearing, the way my brain is working right now, is that these particles would have to be in the sub 30,000/.49 micron grit or close to .30 microns for this to be even sort of possible...
But I am a true believer in hands on trials more than the numbers, so if it works it works...

I'm not an expert on J-Nats but I use them & finishers are generally hard stones that won't release much slurry when putting the final touch on a razor.
There are softer,coarser stones that are a tad harder than compressed mud. These do break down easily but are not in the finishing category.

Oz man, ya know I get so frustrated with Naturals of any kind, just for this reason, there are no rules to them, or order, and everyone just basically does what they want, and every single person SWEARS that their stone is somehow from a special mine, strata, or dinosaurs butt

And heaven forbid you ask what grit it is, because that will go on for a hour of geology dissertation hehehe...

gotta love HAD !!!