nakayama maruka vs Uchigumori?

Hello everybody,

This is my first post. Hope to learn from you
guys.

I use 800,3000,8000 synthetic stones to sharpen.
The end result is nice, but I want a better/sharper finish.

I have read about natural japanese stones. I read there
these are basically categorized as coarse, medium and fine stones.

I am in the market for a fine finishing stone. I read
on this forum that Nakayama Maruka stones are the best
natural stone for finishing. Then I remember reading
somewhere else that after sharpening on a Nakayama
stone, the final step is a Uchigumori stone.

Furthermore these natural stones are about 8000 grit, but the particles get smaller,finer which makes you
able to sharpen to a much higer grit on these stones.

Oops forgot to write that I want to buy the stone
for sharpening plane blades. My skin is too thin
for shaving with a really sharp razor.

Regards,

Haydar
Netherlands

Well, I've never seen an estimate of the grit on a Japanese natural finishing stone - it is my understanding that it is not possible to estimate the grit and no one who really knows hones will try to do so.

I don't know what will work best for plane blades, as I have no experience with them, but my Asagi works very well on my straights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SharpMan

Hello everybody,

This is my first post. Hope to learn from you
guys.

I use 800,3000,8000 synthetic stones to sharpen.
The end result is nice, but I want a better/sharper finish.

I have read about natural japanese stones. I read there
these are basically categorized as coarse, medium and fine stones.

I am in the market for a fine finishing stone. I read
on this forum that Nakayama Maruka stones are the best
natural stone for finishing. Then I remember reading
somewhere else that after sharpening on a Nakayama
stone, the final step is a Uchigumori stone.

Furthermore these natural stones are about 8000 grit, but the particles get smaller,finer which makes you
able to sharpen to a much higer grit on these stones.

Oops forgot to write that I want to buy the stone
for sharpening plane blades. My skin is too thin
for shaving with a really sharp razor.

Regards,

Haydar
Netherlands

---

Plane blades are not exactly the same as razors I suspect you need to stick with synthetic stones or perhaps abrasive films on glass. My local woodworking shop has 0.3micron abrasive film for plane and other wood working tools which is very fine (about 30,000).

Check out the Shapton Waterstones and others as well
as the Nakayama Maruka stones you know of.

The Uchigomori is a stone used for polishing Swords, as I understand it. Razors not being swords, I don't think you need to worry about it. The razor makers and honers I know of here in Japan don't mention any Uchigomori, so if you can get a good Maruka, you're in business!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Plane blades are not exactly the same as razors I suspect you need to stick with synthetic stones or perhaps abrasive films on glass. My local woodworking shop has 0.3micron abrasive film for plane and other wood working tools which is very fine (about 30,000).

Check out the Shapton Waterstones and others as well
as the Nakayama Maruka stones you know of.

---

Why should he stick with synthetics? Japanese woodworkers are, in fact, the main users of Japanese natural stone, including Maruka branded stones. The razor stones are a small part of the whole shebang...planes are much more commonly sharpened in them than razors.

Hi there :)
Nakayama is a mine not a stone & as Jim said Maruka is a brand.
e.g. You can have an Maruka brand Uchigumori stone from the Nakayama mine. You should consult your seller for the best choice for your application but I know Uchigumori as well as other kinds are used for polishing Katana. Don't know how applicable they are to planes.

Thanks you guys for the swift replies.

I want to try a natural stone this time hoping
it will make sharpening more attractive/interesting
to do.

Quote:

---

Hi there :)
Nakayama is a mine not a stone & as Jim said Maruka is a brand.
e.g. You can have an Maruka brand Uchigumori stone from the Nakayama mine. You should consult your seller for the best choice for your application but I know Uchigumori as well as other kinds are used for polishing Katana. Don't know how applicable they are to planes.

---

Aha ok, that I did not know. So basically Nakayama Maruka does not mean much besides where it came from and what brand it is.

I did sent an email to japan-tool owner, but have not
received a reply. Maybe too busy.

I am looking for a 20cm long, 7 cm wide finishing(natural) stone for a reasonable price. I don't know 100-200 dollars.

Hoping more people will join this thread and maybe post
their experiences and show me(us)their natural bling bling stones:)

Haydar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SharpMan

Thanks you guys for the swift replies.

I want to try a natural stone this time hoping
it will make sharpening more attractive/interesting
to do.



Aha ok, that I did not know. So basically Nakayama Maruka does not mean much besides where it came from and what brand it is.

I did sent an email to japan-tool owner, but have not
received a reply. Maybe too busy.

I am looking for a 20cm long, 7 cm wide finishing(natural) stone for a reasonable price. I don't know 100-200 dollars.

Hoping more people will join this thread and maybe post
their experiences and show me(us)their natural bling bling stones:)

Haydar

---

Yes So is busy, just be patient he will get back to you. He has a pretty impressive collection.
A good Nakayama will get to grits higher than 30k.
Nat stones are mined from different mines and from different layers called Strata.
Nakayama stones suitable for razors are identified by color which also is related to the strata(might be wrong on this one). There are a few varieties of Nkayama : Asagi, Kiita the main ones.
For sharpening planes you can use a Suita stone(for example Ohira, Narutaki, Nakayama ), they are not as fine as Nakyama(not from the suita strata), but from what I understand perfect for planes.
Talk to So about all that he will answer all your questions.

This thread is a good explanation of why Jnat shopping makes me want to remove my brain with an ice cream scoop. Best I can tell there's mines, locations, brands, names, various appearance terms, certain function terms, terms somewhat related to grit, terms that relate to strata... and a seemingly random selection of these is selected when someone describes or names a particular stone. Then there's the rating system. Which isn't standardized (some sellers go to 5, some to 3) and seems to be based pretty much on the sellers opinion of the stone. Anything or everything I've said about these stones here may be completely wrong. I really have no clue, no matter how I try to understand... that's kind of my point. It seems the best thing you can do is find an expert and say, "I want to do this. Find me what I need." which is something I just can not bring myself to do.

The day someone writes a book that explains everything you need to know to be able to know exactly what to look for in a Japanese stone for whatever your intended use is will be a very happy day for me.

Hell I OWN a good Japanese finishing stone, and I can't even figure out what to call the darned thing... it shames me terribly. It sits there on my desk, mocking my stupidity. I think it said something about my breath too. I tell you if it wasn't so darned good at finishing my razors I'd throw it out the window.


Oh and for the bling bling. It's in my forums album. I'd take fresh snaps, but I didn't bring it on vacation (didn't want to risk breaking it on the bus).


It was sold to me as a Nakayama (the mine), Karasu (Crows foot? the dark mottling markings).

Edit: dug up the listing I bought it from... was also called "UMEGAHATA"... which I have no idea what that means. I'm gonna go google that. (edit again: it appears to be a region).

It was rated 5 on a 1-5+ scale for fineness. 5 for hardness also 3 for smoothness (of 3+) and 3+ for speed (of 3+).

JimR asked: "Why should he stick with synthetics? "

Only because that is what he has now and additional synthetics
can most reliably continue the progressions.

You are 100% correct that naturals are the fuzz on the peach of
woodworking for many.

Guys,

found a stone on ebay. This is the description:

''
You are looking at a beautiful Japanese Uchigurmori sharpening stone. This is a very special ultimate class stone which I will guarantee satisfaction with a refund or trade, please read the return instructions for details. These stones would be worth $100's more if they were perfect so please look at the pictures for condition. These are the best quality available. Thank you for looking.
This large size 180X67X27mm 835g stone is Uchigumori from the Nakayama mine in Yamashiro Umegahata Region of Kyoto. It is a hard very fine grain and very abrasive grit with a good light positive feedback, which polishes to a very high degree. The lines or cracks have no affect on the sharpening and polishing of this stone, it is a top grade stone. Please note the picture with an iron flower, which are the particles formed while sharpening. The slurry is formed from a 30 second grind.
HGAL \5+3+++3+++3++.
H is the hardness of the stone on a scale of 5
G is the grain, how fine the grain on a scale of 3
A is the abrasive power of the stone on a scale of 3
L is the lightness, the feel of the stones feedback on a scale of 3
This stone is so abrasive and so smooth. I have been asked what grit these stones are, and that is a very hard question to answer. The beauty of the Tennen Toishi is that it may cut like an 8000 grit stone but the longer you use it and the slurry builds, the grit size breaks down and it may be smaller particles than a 30,000 grit Shapton. With a very high grade stone like this one, you end up with a beautiful mist and haze that no artifical stone can match.''


What do you think guys? I am no expert, but the info makes me think it is a good stone for polishing my plane
blades.


The stone is 150 something dollars. There are a couple
on ebay for others who might be interested.


Haydar

That guy has stones with those stats listed for $155 pretty much all the time. I'm sure you'll find someone who has bought from him.

I did a search and found the hones you are referring to (they all look like they have cracks in them, but that could just be the way they are - I don't know).

I dunno if this means anything, but those ratings are the same as 330mate's system. So I checked that guy's feedback and, sure enough, tons of purchases from 330mate. Makes me a little suspicious...

Hi again,

I did not want to post the link as I have just joined
the forum and it may look suspicious.

Quote:

---

I did a search and found the hones you are referring to (they all look like they have cracks in them, but that could just be the way they are - I don't know).

I dunno if this means anything, but those ratings are the same as 330mate's system. So I checked that guy's feedback and, sure enough, tons of purchases from 330mate. Makes me a little suspicious...

---

Very sharp holli4pirating! I checked it as well and you
are correct. A lot of purchases from 330 mate. I think
all stones were like 50-60 dollars or so, which he is now selling for 150 dollars or so.

Don't think it is suspicious. Just buying stones and selling for higher prices.

I am guessing he bought a lot of stones and got discount
from 330mate. So the question is can I buy the stone cheaper from 330mate?

If I remember correctly I sent a message to 330mate
and telling about what I wanted and he just recommended Shapton stones:)

With this info I am going to mail him again.

Haydar

Veins in a stone are not a problem if they are soft. Cracks on the other hand can be.
I am just suspicious of someone advertising Uchigumori as a razor stone but he has good feedback from sales. Your choice.

330mate is sick of razor honers bugging him I think. He started listing a "for razors" size (only $22 shipped, worth a gamble really) a couple weeks ago, and a few members have posted emails from him where he complains about how we ask him to handpick stones for us without paying him for his time.

Personally I'd probably take the gamble on one of his $22 size nakayama's and figure it money gone (a movie, popcorn and a drink these days)... then if that didn't work out I'd either take his advice about the shapton or bite the bullet and pay $300+ for one from someone who caters to razor honers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Veins in a stone are not a problem if they are soft. Cracks on the other hand can be.
I am just suspicious of someone advertising Uchigumori as a razor stone but he has good feedback from sales. Your choice.

---

Thanks for the info.

I was thinking if the lines are very narrow then there should be no problem, but wider lines might cause the
blade to go in these lines.

Quote:

---

330mate is sick of razor honers bugging him I think. He started listing a "for razors" size (only $22 shipped, worth a gamble really) a couple weeks ago, and a few members have posted emails from him where he complains about how we ask him to handpick stones for us without paying him for his time.

Personally I'd probably take the gamble on one of his $22 size nakayama's and figure it money gone (a movie, popcorn and a drink these days)... then if that didn't work out I'd either take his advice about the shapton or bite the bullet and pay $300+ for one from someone who caters to razor honers

---

Lol. I have the feeling you might be right about him being fed up of looking for ''special'' stones for people.

The 22 dollar stones are too small for me(sharpening plane blades). I emailed him and explained again what I need and that I was willing to pay more for the ''special custom'' stone.

Haydar

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

JimR asked: "Why should he stick with synthetics? "

Only because that is what he has now and additional synthetics
can most reliably continue the progressions.

You are 100% correct that naturals are the fuzz on the peach of
woodworking for many.

---

Not to mention that even a shapton 30K is substantially cheaper than a high quality nakayama of a nice size.

If you really want a good razor finisher with size smaller than what you initially listed and do not mind waiting for So to reply, he has some nice stones @ good prices.
Old_School here also sells stones, and all people that have bought from him are happy with what they got.

I use planes. I don't think either of the names in your title is what you want.

NM are too expensive.Nakayama may have the rep as the best; but what does that really mean? There are quite a few really good wood workers using stones who's origin was lost with no idea what it is. the most important thing is the stone does what you want
Uchi_g- while there are soft ones and very hard ones are just not a good choice for a first awasedo.

So Yamashita can help you. I think Alex G at japanblade may be able to assist as well as Tomohito at Waterstone | Wood working tool, Japanese wood working tool shop.

If you are getting the most from your 8k you should be sharp enough for hard wood, but I understand wanting to see and feel what a little more might do, not to mention discovering the taste of japanese stones.

Do you use japanese planes or western- what have you got? how much experience using them?

The original question being:
"Do I need a stone to follow a (high quality) Nakayama"
can be answered with a no.

As already stated Nakayama is a mine that produces very high quality polishing stones.
MaruKa/MaruIchi is a stamp on a particular stone given by the owner of the mine,
labeling the stone as of high quality.

So a genuine Nakayama Maruka is of very high quality
but still not necessarily perfectly fine for the use with razors!

You will need someone with very much experience that handpicks a stone for you. Maybe one with a stamp saying "kamisori" wich translates into "razor".

I would not search on my own for a suitable hone but ask one of the friendly
but very busy guys like SO and Yamashita if they can recommend you one.
On Oldschoolshaving you will find some hones especially for the razor use

The next thing is, there are many j-nat stones suitable for razor finishing.
Nakayama being the most common one there are however several others I know of producing wickedly sharp and smooth edges.
I myself own a Ohzuku in a perfect size that cost me 70€
and it produces the most keen edge I have ever seen,
even compared to Shapton 16k, vintage thuringian etc.
I would say it is equal to Chromium oxide in 0.5µm

But usually you don´t get to buy such uncommon hones
and your best chances lie in a good but expensive Nakayama.

Let me make one more thing clear:
If you are not able to produce comfortable shaving edges from an synthetic high quality 8k stone
following some pasting or good leathering
you will eventually not benefit from a high grit stone

You can buy from 330mate if you do your homework and know what you want. His site is 天然ç*¥çŸ³ 伊予ç*¥ æ*£æœ¬å±± 山城銘ç*¥ 白鷹包ä¸� 玄ç¿� 鉋 é‘¿

Better value there. I think he uses ebay for sizes and stones he has little time for in his store. He views himself as a wholesaler and seems to prefer to opereate that way. Once you've registered on his site and bought a few things (without costing him a lot of time) he is easier to relate to.

I am in a conversation with So about getting some hones and dealing with him is a whole different experience. The conversation started about 6 months ago and is picking up some steam to the conclusion before the holidays. He will really discuss your needs with you and take care to choose the right stone (and teach you about it in the process).

My buying experience from Old_School was top notch. He has carefully chosen finishing hones with an eye to razors. He will tell you if what he has is good for your purpose. His site (in his sig) has good info on it. The hone I have from him may just be my best.

Do not purchase in haste. Purchasing a natural finishing hone can be complex. You can learn on your own and buy from a wholesaler who isn't going to answer a lot of questions (330mate), you can buy from someone who is trustworthy and has razor hones(O_S), or learn from someone who has great experience and lots of hones for different purposes (So Yamashiita from Japan Tool).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

I use planes. I don't think either of the names in your title is what you want.

NM are too expensive.Nakayama may have the rep as the best; but what does that really mean? There are quite a few really good wood workers using stones who's origin was lost with no idea what it is. the most important thing is the stone does what you want
Uchi_g- while there are soft ones and very hard ones are just not a good choice for a first awasedo.

So Yamashita can help you. I think Alex G at japanblade may be able to assist as well as Tomohito at Waterstone | Wood working tool, Japanese wood working tool shop.

If you are getting the most from your 8k you should be sharp enough for hard wood, but I understand wanting to see and feel what a little more might do, not to mention discovering the taste of japanese stones.

Do you use japanese planes or western- what have you got? how much experience using them?

---

Hi Kevin,

I use western planes.

The edge I get from the 8k stone is nice(mirror) and is
quite sharp, but I want another stone for final finishing. I am not interested in using chrom oxide or stropping. I like working with stones.

Kevin, I really do not care what the name of the stone is, but I was under the impression that Nakayama/Uchigumori stones were used for final polishing. I now know that Nakayama is the name of the mine where it came from and Maruka is just a brand name.

Correct me if I am wrong. The stone I need is a hard(how hard?), that is very fine and smooth?

Quote:

---

Let me make one more thing clear:
If you are not able to produce comfortable shaving edges from an synthetic high quality 8k stone
following some pasting or good leathering
you will eventually not benefit from a high grit stone

---

I really believe I have got the max out of my 8k stone.
The shavings are easy.

Perhaps a finer stone is not needed, but I still like the
idea of sharpening on a natural finer stone.

I don't know how thin skin can be, but I think we have members that could shave the fuzz off a tissue. Don't go and discount the benefits of the straight razor.;) You are asking questions here_ now you must try!:soapbox:
I mention names because if you go and ask for nakayama or the best stone; anything like that and you may not see anything to afford. But if you telling what you need the stone to do for you is a better start

It could be best to get something that is similar in hardness to what you use- or you may feel like it is time for a change.
neither too soft nor too hard;) is as close as i dare nail it down for you. That's what the good sellers are for to get what you need.

I have a thumb size piece of uchigumori, it would be interesting to see how it worked as a hone if it were larger. It is really quite hard.

To know why this one is a sword stone; the other for carpenters is not always easy to say. It is interesting to note that sometimes suita stones are used as replacements for uchigumori in sword polishing. Historically suita are carpenter rocks. If you can find a good suita in your budget that may be the thing. they could be 10, 20 30k hard to say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

I don't know how thin skin can be, but I think we have members that could shave the fuzz off a tissue. Don't go and discount the benefits of the straight razor.;) You are asking questions here_ now you must try!:soapbox:
I mention names because if you go and ask for nakayama or the best stone; anything like that and you may not see anything to afford. But if you telling what you need the stone to do for you is a better start

It could be best to get something that is similar in hardness to what you use- or you may feel like it is time for a change.
neither too soft nor too hard;) is as close as i dare nail it down for you. That's what the good sellers are for to get what you need.

I have a thumb size piece of uchigumori, it would be interesting to see how it worked as a hone if it were larger. It is really quite hard.

To know why this one is a sword stone; the other for carpenters is not always easy to say. It is interesting to note that sometimes suita stones are used as replacements for uchigumori in sword polishing. Historically suita are carpenter rocks. If you can find a good suita in your budget that may be the thing. they could be 10, 20 30k hard to say.

---

Kevin, I might use a razor in the future! I probably am just too chicken. I have definitely a thin skin that almost always gets little cuts when I shave. And it is not my poor shaving technique which is causing it but simply a really thin skin. My barber says it to me also about my thin skin.

Kevin, when I wrote that I did not care about the names of the stones I was merely implying that I was looking for a good finishing stone and had read that Nakayama Maruka was the best. I am looking for a good stone, don't care about the name.

I hope you did not misunderstand me there as it was not written as a response to you giving some names of stones.

Found some info saying that after the suite stone, the uchigumori ha to
and uchigumori ji to are used. This is for polishing a sword.

Happy new again everybody

Kevin my 8000 Naniwa SS is a nice stone. I am looking for something harder. I am not sure how the hardness of my Naniwa stone compares to other hones.

Happy new year to everybody by the way.

That Ozuku Asagi looks mighty mighty nice.

The Ohira Suita looks like the medium finisher I am looking for.

Cruel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pyment

That Ozuku Asagi looks mighty mighty nice.

The Ohira Suita looks like the medium finisher I am looking for.

Cruel.

---

The Ozuku Asagi definitely looks very nice.

It is cruel, as cruel a joke as the warning on Yamashita's site.

I was just replying to another thread and ended thinking, "now I know why I want to talk about stones-it makes me think about getting another hone"-which is all i ever really wanted I just could not in normal waking life justify the expense.

I did not misunderstand. It is always nicer to know what you have. I think I'm trying to say just don't get hung up on it.

I think most sword polishers will tell you the best cutting edge for the sword is in kaisaei-do stage.(or nagura? i am unsure now) Certainly by the end of the foundation polish with uchigumori "sharpening" has become "polishing"

By polishing I mean it is more akin to buffing where the goal is creating and even looking scratch free surface.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SharpMan

Hi Kevin,

I use western planes.

Correct me if I am wrong. The stone I need is a hard(how hard?), that is very fine and smooth?



.

---

Are your blades A2 or carbon. I have been a little disappointed with my particular Nakayama on A2 steel. Actualy, the little coticule I just got seems to finish them off better. I was hoping for more performance out of the Nakayama on A2 but might just be my particular stone. Works great on carbon steel razors and tools.
Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kingfish

Are your blades A2 or carbon. I have been a little disappointed with my particular Nakayama on A2 steel. Actualy, the little coticule I just got seems to finish them off better. I was hoping for more performance out of the Nakayama on A2 but might just be my particular stone. Works great on carbon steel razors and tools.
Mike

---

Hi Mike, my blade isn't A2. That I do know. My blades
have been hardened to 62,63 Rc or so.

What difference does the hardness of steel make in
sharpening? Harder steel, harder hone necessary?

From my experience the harder hone does not mean it is necessary for harder steels. I can sharpen my Japanese gouges on some relatively soft Japanese synthetics. They are rated higher than western steels, maybe even around R65 ish. They are going to wear faster and are easier to use from my experience. With a flat plane blade, stone hardness is not something you have to have. Having said that, I could understand why you would want a very hard stone that cuts relatively quick, that takes your honing skills to te limit, just be prepaired to pay for it cause they seem to be the ones that are most rare and most desired. The mentioned vendors can definitley help you if you tell them what you want and in the long run will more than likely save you money not having to get random stones that are not to your liking.
Mike

Quote:

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That Ozuku Asagi looks mighty mighty nice

---

I own a Ohzuku Kiita *adore*

Check this guy out - 330mate.com. He sells a ton of stones out of Japan for the purpose of sharpening chisels and planes, knives and swords. I recently bought 2 damascus chefs knives from him off of ebay. They were shipped in decent time, in good condition and as described. His communication is a bit poor, but his products are good.

Here is a link to his ebay store:

Shop eBay Canada Store - Japanese tools whetstone for sword:: Hi class, Yamawaku

Here is a link to his website:

天然ç¥çŸ³ æ„›åª›ã€€ä¼Šè±«éŠ˜ç¥ ã‚�ã�Œå›½åˆ�ã�®å¤©ç„¶ç¥çŸ³

Now, his website is quite difficult to understand becasue it in Japanese for the most part. But, what I did was use Google Translate to figure things out on his site.
Google Translate

Anyway, I thought I would share. I hope this can help you out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SharpMan

Hi Mike, my blade isn't A2. That I do know. My blades
have been hardened to 62,63 Rc or so.

What difference does the hardness of steel make in
sharpening? Harder steel, harder hone necessary?

---

The hardness of steel can span the hardness of common natural minerals.
Depending on how the steel was annealed and tempered
R62+ can be too hard for quartz rich hones. Coticule hones
have garnets as the cutting component. Garnets can scratch
quartz and can scratch hardened steel better than quartz.

Very hard steel is also brittle and reacts to sharpening in unexpected ways.

I do not know what the cutting mineral in J-nats is.

The hardness of hones is often a feeling for how the hone releases
its cutting minerals. i.e. how hard the matrix is that holds the cutting
minerals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SharpMan

Hi Mike, my blade isn't A2. That I do know. My blades
have been hardened to 62,63 Rc or so.

What difference does the hardness of steel make in
sharpening? Harder steel, harder hone necessary?

---

That sounds hard for vintage English and American tools. I may be way off there, 60 would surprise me.

Something that I do not see enough of are Scandinavian. My general impression is these were made harder than english_ish stuff. (unsure)True?

One basic matching steel/stone maxim I have always read is hard steel; soft stone. Soft steel; hard stone. I wouldn't take that to the extreme. I guess it is related to Nify's point about binder and abrasive loosing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

That sounds hard for vintage English and American tools. I may be way off there, 60 would surprise me.

Something that I do not see enough of are Scandinavian. My general impression is these were made harder than english_ish stuff. (unsure)True?

One basic matching steel/stone maxim I have always read is hard steel; soft stone. Soft steel; hard stone. I wouldn't take that to the extreme. I guess it is related to Nify's point about binder and abrasive loosing.

---

That makes total sense to me Kevin. Maybe that is why the Holy Grail of hones is a superman stone that is hard a hell, cuts wicked fast and finishes super fine. I do think there are hones like that out there but most of us will never see them. Most of us will at least find functional compromises that are really pretty good in there own right and will make us satisfied.

I *believe* the hard steel - soft stone corelation refers not to the cutting agent itself, but to the binder and it refers much more to natural stones than synthetics.

If you have a very hard steel it will be reluctant to be abraded.
Therefore you have to either increase the pressure or the speed of the abrasive action.
Or you will have to increase the amount of cutting particles.

If a stone is bond soft, it will release many particles during the sharpening process, making the cutting process easyer.
That´s why softer stones propably will cut faster with harder steels,
than harder stones do

There are very few minerals that actually are softer or not significantly harder than 65HRC steel.
Not all of them are able to cut all the carbides in steel,
but this would be useless, anyway, as they will break out during use

Regardless of what I may have said in the past about wood handtoolers needing, using super sharp edges, my razors are still the sharpest things I use.

Perhaps that has as much to do with the very low angle as ultimate edge dimension. And sometimes such a fine edge is not needed. Yet, there is nothing that I have found to suggest that a razor requires something more, finer or higher quality than what a hand planning, joining cabinet maker may need. After all both can be done at 8k with excellent results. Going up and up in finer grit just makes things more excellent.

I would love to experience less compromise, but i need to up my skills before i can honestly tell myself I deserve better:angel:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lesslemming

I *believe* the hard steel - soft stone corelation refers not to the cutting agent itself, but to the binder and it refers much more to natural stones than synthetics.

If you have a very hard steel it will be reluctant to be abraded.
Therefore you have to either increase the pressure or the speed of the abrasive action.
Or you will have to increase the amount of cutting particles.

If a stone is bond soft, it will release many particles during the sharpening process, making the cutting process easyer.
That´s why softer stones propably will cut faster with harder steels,
than harder stones do

There are very few minerals that actually are softer or not significantly harder than 65HRC steel.
Not all of them are able to cut all the carbides in steel,
but this would be useless, anyway, as they will break out during use

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This is an old thread, but I thought I would add to it with some pertinent info since the participants didn't seem to quite understand the hard steel/soft stone, soft steel/hard stone reasoning. Here goes.

When a stone is cutting very soft steel, the abrasive particles aren't being worn down much, nor very rapidly, so there's no need for them to shed early and often. They can remain in place and still continue to cut at a decent speed. The softer steel also has a higher coefficient of friction with the abrasive, which will tend to pull particles of abrasive from a stone faster than when sharpening a harder steel. (If you have done much reading or talking to any Japanese blacksmiths you will have heard more than a few say that they don't need nagura for their stones as their steel is made with wrought iron cladding - which is very soft and will rapidly pull abrasive particles - or slurry - from most stones). Harder stone of course has a more tenacious grip on the abrasive particles contained within. For this reason, using a harder stone is generally better when sharpening softer steel.

Conversely, when a stone is cutting harder steel, the coefficient of friction between steel and stone is lower (ever felt a stone "skate" over very hard steel almost like it's on ice?), and the abrasive particles tend to dull much more quickly. This makes it important that the particles be released quickly and often so the dull ones get out of the way and let the sharper ones go to work. So for very hard steels a softer stone is better, that way it will rapidly release worn abrasive particles once they are too dull to cut efficiently.

Hopefully that makes things very clear to all.

Thanks Eric for resurrecting this old thread and for your response to it.

As a relatively new honer of razors,that is hopelessly addicted to natural stones, I have been reading allot of old posts on the subject.
I find it fascinating to see how the discussions have changed as the knowledge and experience grows year after year.

I really had no idea that I would be studying so much about the ancient art of honing just because I decided to start shaving with straight razors.
Now, stones and steel seem to dominate my thoughts.