Thread: nakayama maruka vs Uchigumori?

Hello everybody,

This is my first post. Hope to learn from you
guys.

I use 800,3000,8000 synthetic stones to sharpen.
The end result is nice, but I want a better/sharper finish.

I have read about natural japanese stones. I read there
these are basically categorized as coarse, medium and fine stones.

I am in the market for a fine finishing stone. I read
on this forum that Nakayama Maruka stones are the best
natural stone for finishing. Then I remember reading
somewhere else that after sharpening on a Nakayama
stone, the final step is a Uchigumori stone.

Furthermore these natural stones are about 8000 grit, but the particles get smaller,finer which makes you
able to sharpen to a much higer grit on these stones.

Oops forgot to write that I want to buy the stone
for sharpening plane blades. My skin is too thin
for shaving with a really sharp razor.

Regards,

Haydar
Netherlands

Well, I've never seen an estimate of the grit on a Japanese natural finishing stone - it is my understanding that it is not possible to estimate the grit and no one who really knows hones will try to do so.

I don't know what will work best for plane blades, as I have no experience with them, but my Asagi works very well on my straights.

Originally Posted by SharpMan

Hello everybody,

This is my first post. Hope to learn from you
guys.

I use 800,3000,8000 synthetic stones to sharpen.
The end result is nice, but I want a better/sharper finish.

I have read about natural japanese stones. I read there
these are basically categorized as coarse, medium and fine stones.

I am in the market for a fine finishing stone. I read
on this forum that Nakayama Maruka stones are the best
natural stone for finishing. Then I remember reading
somewhere else that after sharpening on a Nakayama
stone, the final step is a Uchigumori stone.

Furthermore these natural stones are about 8000 grit, but the particles get smaller,finer which makes you
able to sharpen to a much higer grit on these stones.

Oops forgot to write that I want to buy the stone
for sharpening plane blades. My skin is too thin
for shaving with a really sharp razor.

Regards,

Haydar
Netherlands

Plane blades are not exactly the same as razors I suspect you need to stick with synthetic stones or perhaps abrasive films on glass. My local woodworking shop has 0.3micron abrasive film for plane and other wood working tools which is very fine (about 30,000).

Check out the Shapton Waterstones and others as well
as the Nakayama Maruka stones you know of.

The Uchigomori is a stone used for polishing Swords, as I understand it. Razors not being swords, I don't think you need to worry about it. The razor makers and honers I know of here in Japan don't mention any Uchigomori, so if you can get a good Maruka, you're in business!

Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Plane blades are not exactly the same as razors I suspect you need to stick with synthetic stones or perhaps abrasive films on glass. My local woodworking shop has 0.3micron abrasive film for plane and other wood working tools which is very fine (about 30,000).

Check out the Shapton Waterstones and others as well
as the Nakayama Maruka stones you know of.

Why should he stick with synthetics? Japanese woodworkers are, in fact, the main users of Japanese natural stone, including Maruka branded stones. The razor stones are a small part of the whole shebang...planes are much more commonly sharpened in them than razors.

Hi there
Nakayama is a mine not a stone & as Jim said Maruka is a brand.
e.g. You can have an Maruka brand Uchigumori stone from the Nakayama mine. You should consult your seller for the best choice for your application but I know Uchigumori as well as other kinds are used for polishing Katana. Don't know how applicable they are to planes.

Thanks you guys for the swift replies.

I want to try a natural stone this time hoping
it will make sharpening more attractive/interesting
to do.

Hi there
Nakayama is a mine not a stone & as Jim said Maruka is a brand.
e.g. You can have an Maruka brand Uchigumori stone from the Nakayama mine. You should consult your seller for the best choice for your application but I know Uchigumori as well as other kinds are used for polishing Katana. Don't know how applicable they are to planes.

Aha ok, that I did not know. So basically Nakayama Maruka does not mean much besides where it came from and what brand it is.

I did sent an email to japan-tool owner, but have not
received a reply. Maybe too busy.

I am looking for a 20cm long, 7 cm wide finishing(natural) stone for a reasonable price. I don't know 100-200 dollars.

Hoping more people will join this thread and maybe post
their experiences and show me(us)their natural bling bling stones

Haydar

Originally Posted by SharpMan

Thanks you guys for the swift replies.

I want to try a natural stone this time hoping
it will make sharpening more attractive/interesting
to do.



Aha ok, that I did not know. So basically Nakayama Maruka does not mean much besides where it came from and what brand it is.

I did sent an email to japan-tool owner, but have not
received a reply. Maybe too busy.

I am looking for a 20cm long, 7 cm wide finishing(natural) stone for a reasonable price. I don't know 100-200 dollars.

Hoping more people will join this thread and maybe post
their experiences and show me(us)their natural bling bling stones

Haydar

Yes So is busy, just be patient he will get back to you. He has a pretty impressive collection.
A good Nakayama will get to grits higher than 30k.
Nat stones are mined from different mines and from different layers called Strata.
Nakayama stones suitable for razors are identified by color which also is related to the strata(might be wrong on this one). There are a few varieties of Nkayama : Asagi, Kiita the main ones.
For sharpening planes you can use a Suita stone(for example Ohira, Narutaki, Nakayama ), they are not as fine as Nakyama(not from the suita strata), but from what I understand perfect for planes.
Talk to So about all that he will answer all your questions.

This thread is a good explanation of why Jnat shopping makes me want to remove my brain with an ice cream scoop. Best I can tell there's mines, locations, brands, names, various appearance terms, certain function terms, terms somewhat related to grit, terms that relate to strata... and a seemingly random selection of these is selected when someone describes or names a particular stone. Then there's the rating system. Which isn't standardized (some sellers go to 5, some to 3) and seems to be based pretty much on the sellers opinion of the stone. Anything or everything I've said about these stones here may be completely wrong. I really have no clue, no matter how I try to understand... that's kind of my point. It seems the best thing you can do is find an expert and say, "I want to do this. Find me what I need." which is something I just can not bring myself to do.

The day someone writes a book that explains everything you need to know to be able to know exactly what to look for in a Japanese stone for whatever your intended use is will be a very happy day for me.

Hell I OWN a good Japanese finishing stone, and I can't even figure out what to call the darned thing... it shames me terribly. It sits there on my desk, mocking my stupidity. I think it said something about my breath too. I tell you if it wasn't so darned good at finishing my razors I'd throw it out the window.


Oh and for the bling bling. It's in my forums album. I'd take fresh snaps, but I didn't bring it on vacation (didn't want to risk breaking it on the bus).


It was sold to me as a Nakayama (the mine), Karasu (Crows foot? the dark mottling markings).

Edit: dug up the listing I bought it from... was also called "UMEGAHATA"... which I have no idea what that means. I'm gonna go google that. (edit again: it appears to be a region).

It was rated 5 on a 1-5+ scale for fineness. 5 for hardness also 3 for smoothness (of 3+) and 3+ for speed (of 3+).

JimR asked: "Why should he stick with synthetics? "

Only because that is what he has now and additional synthetics
can most reliably continue the progressions.

You are 100% correct that naturals are the fuzz on the peach of
woodworking for many.

Guys,

found a stone on ebay. This is the description:

''
You are looking at a beautiful Japanese Uchigurmori sharpening stone. This is a very special ultimate class stone which I will guarantee satisfaction with a refund or trade, please read the return instructions for details. These stones would be worth $100's more if they were perfect so please look at the pictures for condition. These are the best quality available. Thank you for looking.
This large size 180X67X27mm 835g stone is Uchigumori from the Nakayama mine in Yamashiro Umegahata Region of Kyoto. It is a hard very fine grain and very abrasive grit with a good light positive feedback, which polishes to a very high degree. The lines or cracks have no affect on the sharpening and polishing of this stone, it is a top grade stone. Please note the picture with an iron flower, which are the particles formed while sharpening. The slurry is formed from a 30 second grind.
HGAL \5+3+++3+++3++.
H is the hardness of the stone on a scale of 5
G is the grain, how fine the grain on a scale of 3
A is the abrasive power of the stone on a scale of 3
L is the lightness, the feel of the stones feedback on a scale of 3
This stone is so abrasive and so smooth. I have been asked what grit these stones are, and that is a very hard question to answer. The beauty of the Tennen Toishi is that it may cut like an 8000 grit stone but the longer you use it and the slurry builds, the grit size breaks down and it may be smaller particles than a 30,000 grit Shapton. With a very high grade stone like this one, you end up with a beautiful mist and haze that no artifical stone can match.''


What do you think guys? I am no expert, but the info makes me think it is a good stone for polishing my plane
blades.


The stone is 150 something dollars. There are a couple
on ebay for others who might be interested.


Haydar