New Ti 5/8, how much honing should it take?

Hello All,

I'm new to the forum, but have been searching and reading for quite some time now. I've purchased a new Ti 5/8 sheffield silver steel razor with Norton 4K/8K hone, Dovo hanging strop, etc.. from Classic Shaving. When I recieved everything in the mail the first thing I did was lap the stone with 3M 1K grit wet/dry on some glass. After convinced it was indeed flat, I tested my razor for sharpness. It took a few strokes on the ol' arm, but hair did slowly seem to be dissapearing. Nothing really awe inspiring though.
I flushed the new hone to rid it of any left over 1K grit and sat down at the table with hone and razor. I did the pyramid recommended for a razor that is almost keen (maybe I should have done aggressive honing). Checking for improvement after a few sequences to prevent over honing. I couldn't really detect any appreciatable difference of the edge. I tried one more pyramid and stropped for a test shave.
To say the least, it was not shave ready. I've done the pyramid a few times now and the razor continues to hack at my beard. I know I'm the one at fault, not the razor. I must be doing something wrong here, or maybe just not enough yet. Maybe just a little more patience. I'm just wondering how much honing is often required with a new Ti to get it shave ready? I tried the hair test and I haven't gotten one to successfully cut yet. Not even running the hair along the edge in a cutting motion does it.
My first attempt at stropping made me realize just how easy Lynn makes it look in the video. I noticed when I was coming back with the blade, that the edge was not making full contact with the strop. I felt the drag of the rear of the blade and thought that I was feeling some of the edge as well. Nope. I've since corrected myself. The last time I stropped I lifted the rear of the blade ever so slightly to ensure positive contact with the stropp. This time without the rear drag interference I could feel the edge making contact. The shave afterwards was somewhat improved and the edge did look more polished. Is this way of stropping a big oops on my part??
If anyone has any suggestions on honing sequences or stropping techniques I could use to get my razor shave ready I would be immensely grateful! My last shave with the razor was like a lumberjack hacking his way through a forest. It did cut some hair, but it was pulling and there was nothing close about the way it was cutting. Any help will be appreciated Thanks!

- Tony

Tony,

Welcome to the forum. I have the same issue. I have a new 6/8 TI and it seems to take a while to get pretty sharp. I have shaved with it a few times but it irritates me a little bit. I think that you should just keep trying the pyramids. I definately don't have the expertise to tell you how much. But just try small steps. Don't just wail away on it for a while after patience is lost. I am speaking from experience. Once that even edge is lost, us as newbies don't really have a benchmark at how to get it back to normal. So take it easy and keep testing it as you move through the pyramid and maybe you will need to send it off to someone to get a good idea of a sharp razor. I did that once and it was nice.

Good luck and sorry I couldn't be more help

Hi Folks,

very similar experience with my 6/8th. In the meanwhile I think that this lead-hardening process really makes the blade harder - which means also harder to hone !

For my usual honing procedure to work out I had to do quite a lot more strokes on the stones and the strops as with my other carbon steel razors. I did not count, but I think it amounts to nearly double the strokes necessary for a similar result.

Now its quite there in sharpness, but not really up to my trusty Timor which is my personal benchmark - so today its back to the pasted strops for a (hopefully) final touchup.....

Good luck to you,
-Axel-

This one is a little difficult for me but I'll toss in my two cents. My guess is that it was close to shave ready to begin with and needed to be stropped. From here its anybodys guess where your at (but it doesn't sound very good) I would consider from here to
1) Stop shaving with it, its dangerous
2) Consider 2 things, one that you probably are not honing with enough "discipline", make sure that you go slow and keep the blade really, really flat and at the exact same angle on the 4,000, and two that you may need a touch more pressure on the blade. First use no pressure and try and perfect your edge but if that fails use a little pressure to get the blade going and then let up on the pressure as you get closer to shaving perfection. Pressure is used when the blade is far away from an edge which is almost where your at, but pressure (a little) is also used to ensure your blade is really, really flat during the full movement down the hone.
3) With the 8,000 side of the Norton you have to be even more careful and controlled
4) If all else fails I take a cavalier attitude and use a light touch and just move the blade over the hone lightly and with a quick x pattern, let the blade fly over the hone. Fast, swiping motions with no pressure. I think this takes practice but sometimes works great and hones up really fast. In this method your using velocity of the blade to ensure a proper contact with the hone. Instead of discipline and focus your using speed. Don't go crazy, just use enough speed to ensure your able to keep the blade flat. Getting a perfect edge later though requires more "discipline' as it gets really close. I would recommend adding just a touch of lather to the hone too to help you keep it all flat, but this does slow down the process.
5) Your stropping sounds all wrong to me. I'm pretty open about stropping but I believe you should NEVER lift any side of the blade, edge, spine, left or right side of the razor. Keep it FLAT. Hold the strop taught and use enough pressure until you feel a draw. This is important for you because you can get a killer shave with an unperfect edge this way. Later if you build a really sharp edge; little to no pressure should work on the strop. But good contact, FLAT, is essential in the long run.

How long should it take?....depends on the pressure you use and your skill. Took me a year once to hone a stainless blade, honing every night. I used a dab of pressure (on my once 5/8 and now 4 1/2 /8) and it sharpened right up instantly. A year wasted using "just the weight of the blade". I'd say with a proper stroke and a knowledge of pressure (again NO pressure as the razor gets keen) I can hone a razor in about 10 minutes. That includes some aggressive stropping. It takes me about 30 min if I'm test shaving during all this too. Which is what I do towards the very end.

If you'd like I'll PM you my home number and we can chat about it for a while. Sometimes a phone intervention works better than all the posts in the world. Just PM me if you'd like some "direct" support. I'm available every evening this week.

Agree. Actually with a new one, it should not need more than a 3-3, 1-3, 1-3 or 1-5 on the Norton and then strop and shave. The key is the razor flat and no pressure both on the honing and stropping. Sometimes you get close and then just the 1-3, 1-5 will work. Good luck. Lynn

Thanks for the support and info guys. My honing technique may possibly be the root of my problem. I have been using no pressure at all on either side of the hone. I've just been moving slow and methodically ensuring the edge and spine were in complete contact throughout the stroke. The blade seemed so thin towards the edge that I was worried about using anything other than the weight of the blade for pressure.
I'll continue with the pyramid applying a little more pressure to the edge without going overboard and check for improvements after every sequence.
Thanks for the insight on that AFDavis11. I probably would have been honing for a year also with just the weight of the blade. Also per your instruction I will keep the blade FLAT on the strop from now on. The lifting of the spine was a one time thing just to experiment (thankfully). If I continue the pyramid with no improvement I'll definitely PM you and maybe we can sort it out. I appreciate the info and everyones willingness to help out. Thank you!

-Tony

After watching the Dovo and TI videos I have come to the conclusion that the bevel created at the factory may not be as good as we like it to be. So... use an aggressive pyramid with 1-2 lbs of pressure on the first 15 laps on the 4000 then lighten up for the remaining laps. This should help to establish a proper bevel and a good edge. You might also want to put some tape on the spine for the first 15 laps on the 4000 hone then remove it after that.

On my TI's it took a few pyramids to get it where I wanted it.
Creating the bevel is the key. If thats not perfect then nothing works.

Just my two cents,

Welcome to the club Wolf. You've been given some excellent advice here, now all you need is a little practice. Good luck!

X

I honed 6 new TI's this week and have done hundreds. I would never recommend 15 strokes on the 4K side of the Norton on a new one. Way too much!! I would never start out with more than 5 strokes. Normally 3. Less strokes are always better. Good Luck. Lynn

I agree too, especially a TI. They should be pretty sharp to begin with. I think the problem is that he has honed it poorly and created an edge which requires more than the typical work. I prefer fewer strokes whenever possible myself.

I'm still not impressed with expierences I've heard here reguarding the TI's. They have been a reoccuring theme, so we cant say it's the fluke one off razor.

Ok, Ok.. I know some one is going to say "you have to hone every new razor"... but at what point does the general "touch up" stop being the expected factory edge and become more labor intensive than it should be?

If I pay 10-15%(on the "cheaper" TI's) more for a razor than I could have for it's comeptition I expect to get a little more. Espicially on the "fit and finish" end of things. If I have to work out the grindins in the edge then create a sharp edge to even shave with, it should be the 'economy' razor not the cream of the crop.

Hi Tony:

Welcome to the forum. Your experience is similar to mine. I too got a new TI 6/8 and it was not shave ready out of the box. It actually had a 2 mil (1/1000") nick in the edge when I got it.

It took me a lot of practice (8 hours) on the hone before I got a smooth shave. I got great advice from the guys here. In the end it was all in the stroke.

I now tend to use slight pressure to keep the blade flat. However, I am still learning and will probably mature to just the blade pressure later on in life.

As far as pressure on the strop I am not sure about using a lot. I have two razors that do not exhibit any noticeable drag until a LOT of pressure is used. So much so that I don't feel comfortable applying it. I just stop them with light pressure and with practically no drag.

They also happen to be my favorite shavers: a 7/8 W&B and a Pierre Thiers collectable. I know they are my favorites because I am always happy when they come up in the rotation.

My original TI 6/8 is a great shaver too but does exhibit drag on the strop with little pressure. So go figure.

I think that every razor has its own personality and it is up to you to find its handling preference.

I'm not sure where my honing would have gone wrong. I followed the pyramid keeping the edge and the spine completely flat (something I was obsessed about) and moving slowly, only using the weight of the blade for pressure. After every sequence I checked the edge for improvement and for any burr that may be forming on my thumb nail. Through the stages the blade has slowly improved and I have never felt a burr at any stage. If I have over-honed I'm not sure how or at what staged it may have occured.
When I first recieved the razor, the edge would remove some of the hair on my arm and slide over some others. The hair that it did cut seemed to be more or less ripped than cut cleanly. This is why I decided to try a few sequences on the pyramid for an almost keen razor.
Randy says use some pressure on the blade when honing and Lynn says to never use any pressure when honing or stropping. I'm a bit confused on how to proceed...I'm gonna have to ponder this one.

When you start to use pressure, you start getting edges that are honed more in one spot than another, larger bevels in addition to worn down spines. I will only hone a razor for a few minutes a night and then test shave and come back to it the next day. Hours spent on one razor honing is not a good ting. The most important thing though is to relax and enjoy. Have fun with it. Tis not an exact science. Lynn

If you have been getting improvement of your blade continue with what your doing. Little to no pressure is important as you get closer. Sometimes a blade just won't seem to get moving without a touch of pressure. You can use it and it won't hurt the razor too much but if your close to a good edge I think we would all agree not to use pressure. Lynn and Randy both can hone a razor just by looking at it. You probably won't get a razor really keen with pressure. A dulling razor though is probably getting honed poorly. Sounds like you understand the process pretty well. You may just need patience. Stick with it, if the razor is close continue without using pressure. When you have a very dull razor a little pressure can save you a lot of wasted time. If all else fails just repost later.

Thanks guys, I believe I'm going to take the "less is more" approach and just keep at it. Thanks for all the great input you guys have given me. I'll get it there sooner or later! Thanks! -Tony

Its hard to give exact advise because honing is an inexact science. Every razor requires a different approach and especially new ones. Its all a matter of feel and experience. Personally as a newbie I would have sent it out for initial honing. I have about 6 TIs and I've gotton them shave ready almost shave ready reasonably good shavers poor shavers and not shaving at all so as you can see depending on how it shaves it takes a different approach.

If it shaves but pulls a little you shouldn't even need to use the 4K. the 8K should do it for you. Like all the others have said, the weight of the blade is all you need, no pressure and ensure the razor stays flat on the hone. If it shaves poorly or not at all then you need to visit the 4K but go slowly and don't overdo it.

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Originally Posted by Kelly

I'm still not impressed with expierences I've heard here reguarding the TI's. They have been a reoccuring theme, so we cant say it's the fluke one off razor. .........
If I have to work out the grindins in the edge then create a sharp edge to even shave with, it should be the 'economy' razor not the cream of the crop.

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i agree with you, but i will say that the only razor i have purchased that was shave ready was a ti 7/8. probably a good grinder with no hangover that day. i do have a VERY expensive ti piece with an uneven bevel grind and it is giving me fits.

The most confusing thing for a newbie is the pressure used on the razor. It must have SOME pressure to hold the razor down, the question is only how much is enough. I think Randy was measuring presure on the kitchen scale, but can't remember the numbers... The thing when honing is that you suddenly "feel" the edge is going right. At least it was for me. When I was begining my honing experience (or when honing dull razor) it felt like I was honing on glass, not cuting anything, and without resistance. Tis the best I can describe the feeling...

Nenad

My LE SRP TI was not even close to being shave ready. It has required three trips to the hone's and paste to get it acceptable.

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Originally Posted by adjustme69

I honed 6 new TI's this week and have done hundreds. I would never recommend 15 strokes on the 4K side of the Norton on a new one. Way too much!! I would never start out with more than 5 strokes. Normally 3. Less strokes are always better. Good Luck. Lynn

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I don't know why it takes so much honing on the razors you are doing Randy, but next time I'm in Minneapolis, I'll let you know and we can get together and go through some honing techniques. Lynn

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Originally Posted by adjustme69

I don't know why it takes so much honing on the razors you are doing Randy, but next time I'm in Minneapolis, I'll let you know and we can get together and go through some honing techniques. Lynn

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My reading of Wolf's post is that he has tried to hone this razor several times in a conservative manner. That is the correct approach, we both agree on that. It is only when a conservative approach fails do I suspect something else and recommend a more aggressive approach.

15 laps on a 4000 is not to much when the bevel is off and from watching the video's of Dovo and TI I can see where that may easily be a problem. It is difficult to hold the razor flat on a horizontal spinning wheel. I have tried that here at home on a horizontal waterwheel that I have.
It could also be that the amount of pressure used is insufficent for the stage his razor is in. This has been discussed quite a bit and at times a little pressure is a good thing.

But... time will tell what it takes for his razor to become shaving sharp.

I hope he keeps us posted.

I'll keep everyone posted as to how it's coming along from time to time. I'll either get it shaving sharp or go crazy in frustration. I've been working at it in my spare time. I'm a thirty year old who is a stay at home dad with 3 year old twins (Boy and Girl) and is going back to college to finish up his degree. My free time can be somewhat limited. Working for the airlines for over 10 years and raising twins has given me patients I never new existed. So more than likely the razor will end up shaving sharp before I give up. :D
I'm just amazed at how thin these blades are, yet how trying it can be to attain shaving sharpness. I suspect there are fine lines between somewhat dull, shaving sharp, and over honed. I've been watching my blade with the Radio Shack 60x-100x microscope and have not detected any typ of burr forming. I'd like to get a little more powerful microscope to really get in there on that edge and get a little better visual feedback. Once the blade is actaully keen enough to shave with the feel on my thumb will give me a better reference of what keen really feels like on a thumb test. I've tried the hair test even raking the hair back and forth in a sawing motion accross the edge...nada. The razor seems quite capable of removing my arm hair, yet is quit unshavable when it comes down to my facial hair.
I really do appreciate everyones help on this. It seems to me that honing is quite the feel thing and is hard to convey to the inexpeirenced. Couple that with the varying conditions of blades, materials, and the techniques of the individuals involved and it makes for quite a difficult task to give advice on what will definitely work and what won't. It's hard to diagnose a problem when you can't visually see what's going on and where the errors might be occuring. So thanks to everyone who has chimed in here to help me out, I will keep my progress posted. Thanks! - Tony

I also recieved a new TI from Classic.(Birthday Gift, 5/8 Art Deco) well, got a good slurry on the 4k side not sure how many passes but quite a bit, same on the 8k side but the last 10 i hold it with very light pressure. then strop, maybe 60 round trips. shaved with it had to strop twice during shave, no redness a real good shave. it seems like the TI's dont hold an edge long, as soon as i feel it pulling i strop, and its back. does anyone know if thats a problem with silver steel. i have another Ti thats the same. works great but doesnt seem to hold the edge for the entire shave. also i think if the blade isnt left flat on the strop it will take the edge off. as you are now changing the angle. :cool:

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Originally Posted by George

as soon as i feel it pulling i strop, and its back. does anyone know if thats a problem with silver steel.

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I had the same issue with a Henckels for a while. I think it might be a product of an inferior edge. If teh fins or the cutting teeth of the edge are irregular they will not be well supported in their job and get knocked about by the whiskers, thus demanding a stropping. Once I refined the edge just a little more using the pyramid honing method (search) the need for stropping during the shave was reduced. So was the blood factor.

X