Honing problem.

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02-11-2010, 11:06 AM
yoshida

Honing problem.

I have another honing problem. It's a carbon steel 6/8 hollow ground ERN -WALD nº 41. In my naniwa SS 800 I can't set a bevel on this one because before the bevel is right it gets overhoned as strange as that may seem. It's like: it's dull and do 2 or 3 more laps and bam-> overhoned :tameshigiri:. I do have some shallow pitting near the edge, could that be the issue here? Or some of you with experience in honing ERN razors has any idea of what is going on? I would appreciate your thoughts because I'm totally lost on this one :shrug:.
Maybe you can tell me your honing progression for ERN razors.
02-11-2010, 11:12 AM
AFDavis11

Try moving up to a higher grit.
02-11-2010, 11:40 AM
mainaman

As said above try higher grit stone.
Do you have means to look at the edge, a loupe a scope?
Taking a look at the bevel sometimes can be very helpful to determine what a problem might be.
How many laps are you doing on your stone?
02-11-2010, 11:44 AM
yoshida

Quote:

Originally Posted by mainaman

As said above try higher grit stone.
Do you have means to look at the edge, a loupe a scope?
Taking a look at the bevel sometimes can be very helpful to determine what a problem might be.
How many laps are you doing on your stone?

I'm making between 20 and 30 laps. I do have a microscope, but usually don't get much info from it, I prefer the tpt. I'll try a higher grit and see what happens.
02-11-2010, 12:47 PM
dave5225

Quote:

Originally Posted by yoshida

I have another honing problem. It's a carbon steel 6/8 hollow ground ERN -WALD nº 41. In my naniwa SS 800 I can't set a bevel on this one because before the bevel is right it gets overhoned as strange as that may seem.

What makes you think the blade is overhoned ? My understanding of the term "overhoned" describes a wire edge condition , which would not exist until after the bevel is set . If you are getting a wire edge , "back-honing" 1 or 2 strokes should remove it .
02-11-2010, 02:00 PM
mainaman

Quote:

Originally Posted by yoshida

I'm making between 20 and 30 laps. I do have a microscope, but usually don't get much info from it, I prefer the tpt. I'll try a higher grit and see what happens.

what do you see when you look at the bevel under your scope?
does it look clean or is there pitting on the bevel too?
Does the whole edge lose sharpness or only certain parts?
02-11-2010, 03:51 PM
yoshida

Quote:

Originally Posted by mainaman

what do you see when you look at the bevel under your scope?
does it look clean or is there pitting on the bevel too?
Does the whole edge lose sharpness or only certain parts?

It looks clean, pitting only above the bevel, the whole edge loses sharpness.
02-11-2010, 03:56 PM
yoshida

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave5225

What makes you think the blade is overhoned ? My understanding of the term "overhoned" describes a wire edge condition , which would not exist until after the bevel is set . If you are getting a wire edge , "back-honing" 1 or 2 strokes should remove it .

When I do the tpt the blade does not feel like cutting, like entering in the thumbprint ridges it just feels soft, too thin, the thin bends and does not cut hair, not even over the skin. Usually, in another razor when I perform the tpt it feels like getting in/cutting from the sawtooth like edge and if the bevel is ok it cut's arm hair easily.
02-11-2010, 04:12 PM
JimmyHAD

Check out this video of Lynn honing at a recent get together and follow his procedure shown in the video here. Start at your 1k naniwa. :gl:
02-11-2010, 05:30 PM
dave5225

Quote:

Originally Posted by yoshida

When I do the tpt the blade does not feel like cutting, like entering in the thumbprint ridges it just feels soft, too thin, the thin bends and does not cut hair, not even over the skin. Usually, in another razor when I perform the tpt it feels like getting in/cutting from the sawtooth like edge and if the bevel is ok it cut's arm hair easily.

Hmmm , I wonder if the blade may have been overheated from grinding or buffing . :thinking:
02-11-2010, 06:47 PM
holli4pirating

I've had a couple of ERN's, and mine have been first class shavers. I used my normal progression - set the bevel on a 1k and progressed from there. For some that was BBW/coti, for others nani 5 and 8.

I would say +1 to trying out your next finest hone to see what that does. I don't have any calibrated tests for hones under 1k because... well because I have much more experience on a 1k than below it and I know what I want a blade off the 1k to do.
02-11-2010, 07:06 PM
yoshida

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Check out this video of Lynn honing at a recent get together and follow his procedure shown in the video here. Start at your 1k naniwa. :gl:

Ok, did the circles thing and the result is an uneven bevel, probably because I'm not keeping the blade straight on the hone but on the other hand got some improvement on both ends of the edge, but just a little, still seems overhoned like in very thin, but pops some hair. Not as worst as in the large middle section.
02-11-2010, 07:09 PM
2knives

Quote:

Originally Posted by yoshida

before the bevel is right it gets overhoned as strange as that may seem. It's like: it's dull and do 2 or 3 more laps and bam-> overhoned

1. Are you taping the spine? If not Just keep honing it until your spine-bevel is even, then progress up to the next stone in your usual progression.

2. If you're taping the spine then do the marker test on the edge-bevel to see if it is hitting all of the areas after a couple of strokes on each side.

With 1 or 2, it should pass the either of the thubnail tests. Dragging edge across and grabbing or setting the edge on thumbnail and lowering thumbnail down creating a more obtuse angle relative to the tip of the thumb & a more acute angle with the closest knuckle of your thumb.

Try a 800 or 1000 grit sandpaper on a flat surface if those don't work.

If I have a rough one, I'll start with a carb stone which is probably some 500 grit (US system) > 1000 japanese > 6000 japanese > green stone (slightly lower than barber hone) > barber hone (swaty), 1μm Diamond paste then smooth strop. Passes HHT everytime.

2knives
02-11-2010, 08:05 PM
holli4pirating

Quote:

Originally Posted by yoshida

Ok, did the circles thing and the result is an uneven bevel, probably because I'm not keeping the blade straight on the hone but on the other hand got some improvement on both ends of the edge, but just a little, still seems overhoned like in very thin, but pops some hair. Not as worst as in the large middle section.

If you do circles followed by 10-15 X strokes, it should not be possible to develop a wire edge. Uneven wear can be the result of uneven pressure or more contact on one part of the razor as compared to another, but it also happens if the razor previously had an uneven edge or uneven grind. Uneven wear can indicate a problem with your honing, but doesn't necessarily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2knives

1. Are you taping the spine? If not Just keep honing it until your spine-bevel is even, then progress up to the next stone in your usual progression.

I strongly disagree with 1. I have found that even wear has nothing to do with a properly set bevel. I have blades with uneven wear and great edges, uneven wear and bad edges, even wear and great edges, and even wear and bad edges. If you really wanted to, you could continue to hone all your razors until the spine wear is even, but there is no reason to do so (and you won't always get even bevels either, as the bevels do not always match the spine wear).
02-11-2010, 09:10 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I have found that even wear has nothing to do with a properly set bevel. I have blades with uneven wear and great edges, uneven wear and bad edges, even wear and great edges, and even wear and bad edges. If you really wanted to, you could continue to hone all your razors until the spine wear is even, but there is no reason to do so (and you won't always get even bevels either, as the bevels do not always match the spine wear).

+1 I've come to the same conclusion as holli4 on the bevel.

The marker test is good to see if your x strokes are making full contact with the edge. If not sometimes a 45 degree heel leading angle works, as Lynn suggests, or a rolling x in extreme cases.
02-11-2010, 11:07 PM
yoshida

Thanks for the advices, I'll hone over the weekend, today 12 hours at work, (not honing related), and counting. I'll get to be an expert at honing soon, :overkill: or not!! eheh :) auugghhh, just tired...
02-12-2010, 01:22 AM
2knives

Quote:

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I strongly disagree with 1. I have found that even wear has nothing to do with a properly set bevel. I have blades with uneven wear and great edges, uneven wear and bad edges, even wear and great edges, and even wear and bad edges. If you really wanted to, you could continue to hone all your razors until the spine wear is even, but there is no reason to do so (and you won't always get even bevels either, as the bevels do not always match the spine wear).

You make a very good point Holli4pirating. In most cases I have had a good experience with matching the bevels up; however, you are right about that.