Ever wear out a coticule or slurry stone?

I'm just curious how long I can expect my slurry stone to last, and if I am wearing my cotis too much or something...

I can for sure tell that the slurry stone is thinner than it was when I got it, and the coti I use most seems to be wearing down as well. I'm getting to where I almost don't want to use it, because it's my favorite one and I don't want it to wear out one day. But... it's my favorite because it cuts so well, so it's dumb to not use it.

I guess I'm just wondering what the life expectancy of a coti is, and how often I should plan on replacing slurry stones?

Because it will probably come up: I know the slurry stone is wearing, because it's developed a ridge in the center. I don't lap it because there's no reason to, but it was flat when I started.

Check out these instructions that came with a Norton barber hone that I came across. Since reading this I have always used the edge of the slurry stone as depicted in the photo and it is working very well.

Unless you are heavy handed with your slurry stone and/or your razors I cannot imagine wearing out the coticule. Do you have plenty of yellow surface? Shouldn't need to lap it too often unless you're honing one heck of a lot of razors.

I see that you joined SRP in November. Is that how long you've been honing? If so, I would venture to guess you're using the hones very aggressively with a very aggressive frequency. I don't have as slurry stone for my coticule but I know that the stone itself doesn't wear very easily. I also only use it as a polisher.

Sounds like you have excuse to by another coticule stone :mace:

Thanks for that Jimmy! I had been rubbing the flat sides together.

claytor: I've only been honing for about three months. I have put a lot of razors to my hones in that time though. Some turn out great, some I learn from.
I currently have four coticules, but am still searching for the "right" coticule. I wish I could find another that cuts like my first one. Then I could relax a little bit.

I have not used coticules , but I have a bunch of nat stones and I bet the slurry making technique is similar. You need to apply little pressure to raise slurry, also in my experience you can raise slurry in about 10 strokes on the stone.. The slurry should not be as thick as paste just a nice dilution in the water on the stone surface. I know that coticule is used with different slurry consistencies, but how much at each stage of the honing is something you need to figure out for yourself. Another option would be to meet with someone that has used coti and can show you some techniques.

EDIT:
found this vid on YouTube by Bart (not sure if that is our member Bart here)
hope it helps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGvsh87ccnY

P.S. youtube has vids on anything, I like to use it when I want to see how something is done.
P.s.s
looks like this is indeed Bart, and he has a series of vids on coticule use, I love youtube ;)

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Originally Posted by HNSB

I currently have four coticules, but am still searching for the "right" coticule. I wish I could find another that cuts like my first one. Then I could relax a little bit.

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The damn things are like potato chips, we can't have just one. The slippery slope of HAD. I'm up to 15 and counting, looking for the "right" one !:eek:

Thanks Jimmy, Can you explain the reasoning behind such usage.

As an aside I do see a reason to keep the rubber flat esp. if using one wrongly, on the flat as i do. If it wears unevenly then you know you are applying it unevenly. Which is the same as worrying your hone out of flat

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I have not used coticules , but I have a bunch of nat stones and I bet the slurry making technique is similar. You need to apply little pressure to raise slurry, also in my experience you can raise slurry in about 10 strokes on the stone.. The slurry should not be as thick as paste just a nice dilution in the water on the stone surface. I know that coticule is used with different slurry consistencies, but how much at each stage of the honing is something you need to figure out for yourself. Another option would be to meet with someone that has used coti and can show you some techniques.

EDIT:
found this vid on YouTube by Bart (not sure if that is our member Bart here)
hope it helps:

P.S. youtube has vids on anything, I like to use it when I want to see how something is done.

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I've watched every video that Bart has done on coticule use. :)
As far as honing on them, I've gotten that down pretty well. It sounds like I'm just over-wearing the hone on the slurry making.
This particular coti raises a slurry much faster than the others (I set the bevel and sharpen on this one (diluting slurry as I go), then go to a BBW with slurry for further sharpening (diluting slurry as I go), and finish on a different coti (with water) that gives a better finish).
I'm wondering if it's just maybe a little softer than some of the others?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I have not used coticules , but I have a bunch of nat stones and I bet the slurry making technique is similar. You need to apply little pressure to raise slurry, also in my experience you can raise slurry in about 10 strokes on the stone.. The slurry should not be as thick as paste just a nice dilution in the water on the stone surface. I know that coticule is used with different slurry consistencies, but how much at each stage of the honing is something you need to figure out for yourself. Another option would be to meet with someone that has used coti and can show you some techniques.

EDIT:
found this vid on YouTube by Bart (not sure if that is our member Bart here)
hope it helps:
YouTube - slurry_production.wmv

P.S. youtube has vids on anything, I like to use it when I want to see how something is done.
P.s.s
looks like this is indeed Bart, and he has a series of vids on coticule use, I love youtube ;)

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huh. look at that. Seems like one could make do with less.

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Originally Posted by kevint

Thanks Jimmy, Can you explain the reasoning behind such usage.

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Yes Kevin, from my experience creating slurry with the rubber flat on the hone is more difficult because of more friction/stiction than I get when I began doing it as the Norton instruction suggest and use the edge of the rubbing stone. One of those try it you'll like it deals .... or you won't and you'll do it however you do like it. Many roads to Rome. :)

I just tried using the edge of the slurry stone to raise a slurry. Wow!
Not only does it raise a slurry faster, but there's also no annoying stickage.

But... it's also pretty clear that the slurry making cut more of a bevel into the edge of the slurry stone, thus confirming to me that they do wear.
I guess it's time to talk to Rich about getting a few more slurry stones.

I wonder if the slurry stone you have and the coticule are from 2 different slabs and with different hardness? from your description it seems to me that the slurry stone is softer.

FWIW, I've never put appreciable wear on a slurry stone be it a coticule, thuringan or what have you. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Yes Kevin, from my experience creating slurry with the rubber flat on the hone is more difficult because of more friction/stiction than I get when I began doing it as the Norton instruction suggest and use the edge of the rubbing stone. One of those try it you'll like it deals .... or you won't and you'll do it however you do like it. Many roads to Rome. :)

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Ah a sure an easy answer.

makes good sense.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I wonder if the slurry stone you have and the coticule are from 2 different slabs and with different hardness? from your description it seems to me that the slurry stone is softer.

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They are definitely different slabs. The slurry is a richer yellow with a bit of a salmon tone to it. Beautiful color, and I wish I had a big coti like it.

The other coticules I have are more of a pale yellow or grayish yellow color, depending on the stone. Based solely off of the ones I own, the grayer or darker yellows seem to be harder and are slower cutters but better finishers. The lighter colors and more saturated colors seem to be faster cutters.
But... That's just my VERY limited experience with the few stones that I have.

Just IME, I rarely use slurry on a yellow coticule. I would if I were setting a bevel but I prefer to do that on a 1k naniwa or a 1k norton. I always use slurry on the bbw and when I use that stone I always finish on a yellow coticule. Maybe that is why I've not worn my yellows with the slurry stone. Again IME you can set a bevel on a coticule with slurry but it is an experience that I don't care to repeat with the other alternatives at my disposal. :)

There is only one I use for bevel setting. It is a fast cutter. None of the others come close to replicating the speed at which it cuts.

I have a 1k/3k Naniwa waterstone combo. Lately though on the razors that need a lot of work I go from a Nani SS 400 to the yellow coti. If they don't need that much work, I just start on the coti with a slurry. It seems to cut as fast as the Naniwa 1k waterstone does.

(the above pretty much sums up my quest for another coticule that cuts the same; I know it's out there somewhere...)

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Just IME, I rarely use slurry on a yellow coticule. I would if I were setting a bevel but I prefer to do that on a 1k naniwa or a 1k norton. Again IME you can set a bevel on a coticule with slurry but it is an experience that I don't care to repeat with the other alternatives at my disposal. :)

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+ ONE
I was going to type the same thing, I realize that the whole "One Stone Thing" was cool and all but, if yer actually honing multiple razors I just don't see the advantge at all..
I very very very rarely drop below a 1k Norton unless it is serious restoration... I know you guys know this but "slurry" is not a dirty word on other stones, I have finally just now reached the end of my Norton 220/1000 on the 1k side, that is after over 3500 razors mostly restores and yes I do use a slurry on that too...
Another neat trick is using a slurry on a 4k Norton for those razors that are in good shape but still need a bevel re-set... This can be done on the Naniwas or the Shaptons too...
Yes, slurry works on just about every stone I have tried it with, and my Norton 1k is way cheaper than my Yellow Coticule..

What do you use to build slurry glen?

I have been playing around with using my BBW/Coticule slurry stone, but a credit card dmt seems like it may work better.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

+ ONE
I was going to type the same thing, I realize that the whole "One Stone Thing" was cool and all but, if yer actually honing multiple razors I just don't see the advantge at all..
I very very very rarely drop below a 1k Norton unless it is serious restoration... I know you guys know this but "slurry" is not a dirty word on other stones, I have finally just now reached the end of my Norton 220/1000 on the 1k side, that is after over 3500 razors mostly restores and yes I do use a slurry on that too...
Another neat trick is using a slurry on a 4k Norton for those razors that are in good shape but still need a bevel re-set... This can be done on the Naniwas or the Shaptons too...
Yes, slurry works on just about every stone I have tried it with, and my Norton 1k is way cheaper than my Yellow Coticule..

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I realize that the whole "One Stone Thing" was cool and all but, if yer actually honing multiple razors I just don't see the advantge at all..

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Thanks for the input Glen. For me it's not about using one stone. In fact, I even use two different coti/bbw's in my honing progression, and still finish on a C12k then CrOx. It's just about what seems to work the best for me.

*I'm not in any way trying to be resistant to the wonderful advice that's been offered by everyone that knows what they are doing, and I'm definitely not saying I know something that all of you don't... I just know what works best for me. I'm not even 100% sure why it works the best; I just know that it does.

But that does bring to mind something Glen and I talked about in the chat one night... Time for a new thread.

That is true Eric and sometimes I forget that many of the hints I give are geared around consistency and repetitive action, because I hone a lot of razors...
So add that grain of salt to my posts :) or grain of sugar depends on how you look at it... hehehe

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

What do you use to build slurry glen?

I have been playing around with using my BBW/Coticule slurry stone, but a credit card dmt seems like it may work better.

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I have used just about everything, the synthetic Naguras/Prep stones were my favorite when they were $8 now at over $16 I don't like them as much :)
I have tried the DMT's they work really, really, well but my "Slury stone" of choice now is a small 4x1x1 Translucent Arkansas I have been using it for about 8 months now...

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Originally Posted by HNSB

I just know what works best for me. I'm not even 100% sure why it works the best; I just know that it does.

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+1, that is where I am at with this honing and shaving. I don't know why but if it works I don't spend too much time trying to dissect it . :)

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

+1, that is where I am at with this honing and shaving. I don't know why but if it works I don't spend too much time trying to dissect it . :)

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Although I agree with both of you on this statement 100% Think about how you got to what works for you???

These discussions and dissections and sometimes even heated arguments are sometimes what opens your eyes to the next step that works even better for you.... :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Although I agree with both of you on this statement 100% Think about how you got to what works for you???

These discussions and dissections and sometimes even heated arguments are sometimes what opens your eyes to the next step that works even better for you.... :)

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That is true Glen and I agree with that too. What I mean is .... tell me that a 45 degree angle and a heel leading stroke or 40 circles works and I understand it and I try it. Tell me that this edge was done with x amount of microns and photographed at 300x and I start to get a headache. :p I don't have the technical mind to delve too deeply into the science but I'm more into the hands on approach. Both have their merits and I will get the hands on application from the guys who do have the technical approach when it eventually shakes out ..... If that makes any sense at all ? :shrug:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

These discussions and dissections and sometimes even heated arguments are sometimes what opens your eyes to the next step that works even better for you.... :)

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For sure!
A better statement might have been, "I know what works best for me right now." The only way to know what works best is to compare it to other things that don't work as well.
I'm always trying something new. (read: sinking money into something new. :w)

*I think* the reason the coti's are working better for me is because they are narrower than the synthetics that I've used. That makes it easier for me as a honing newbie to keep the bevel and edge in contact with the stone on a wonky blade. (wonky is a great word that I picked up in the chat one night, I've been patiently waiting for an opportunity to use it)
Perhaps this is a band-aid for less than ideal technique, but it works for me.
I'm going to try some ripped synthetics to see if I can get better results from there.

What I meant by the above though, is that I don't know for 100% certain that it's the narrower stone that makes the difference. For all I know it could be that the spirit of the rock puts me into a zen-like state where I am able to hone better.
I doubt it though. ;)

So... Is discussion important? Absolutely. It leads me to try new things. When I try new things I evaluate whether they work better or worse than the things I was doing before. (Also, I'm not resistant to switching things up on a case by case basis as needed... if there's one thing I've learned here, it's that there is not an absolute best way to do everything every time.)

Bottom line: keep the discussions coming. I like to think that I've come a long way in a relatively short time. That wouldn't have been possible without all the help I've gotten from everyone here.

better be careful. I happened upon a 6x 1.25 inch coti. I liked it narrow and at the time there was some talk of narrow stones here, so I figured i must be one of those narrow hones guys.

next thing I knew i was cutting one stone into two and others to match . Even if they ended up on the short side i still enjoy them. nice for maintenance: plenty of lap, rub and slurry stones.

That is a lovely photo Kevin. :bow

As far as narrow hones, I like mine and all but I've gotten to where I seem to be able to do whatever I need to whether it is a 3" wide or a 1" wide. :shrug: With some exceptions but more often than not.

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Originally Posted by HNSB

I'm wondering if it's just maybe a little softer than some of the others?

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I may be wrong but I think super fast cotis are also soft cotis.
I think it is inevitable you will wear out this stone using it as a bevel setter... but that's what happens with bevel setters simply because they do most of the work. As the others have suggested I would split the load up between synthetics & then use your coti as a final stage in the bevel setting. It's role is then changed to a more intermediate stage. You would still get that nice coti finish at less wear.

I have two coticules , one being very fast with slurry. I also have a 6x2 1200 dmt. I do use the coticule from start to finish. I will switch to my dmt 1200 if i feel it going to take a lot of slurry honing.One of the reasons being i like to check the edge regular when setting a bevel, the slurry seems to get in the way of that , i,m forever wiping the blade.I find these two hones are all i need . I am thinking of getting 6x2 dmt 600 for rebuilding bevels .

As wear my coticule is very fast it's not soft , it does;nt create auto slurry. i do find it does wear a little when used agressivly with slurry honing.I,m sure it will last me along time. It is my favourite and i have the same concern. I will use my dmt to save mine then finish with coticule using milky slurry to take care of the scratches from dmt then finish with water to polish on my coti.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The damn things are like potato chips, we can't have just one. The slippery slope of HAD. I'm up to 15 and counting, looking for the "right" one !:eek:

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There are only 2 things a yellow coticule is good for:
1) aggressively dulling an edge
2) backing for a natural yellow / blue combo

:p

How often are you lapping the stone? It shouldn't need it that often even if you do raise slurry a lot. This lap-after-every-use business is fine for synthetics, but not so much for naturals.

I haven't worn one out yet, and it's not for the lack of trying.

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Originally Posted by PA23-250

How often are you lapping the stone?

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I've lapped all of my coticules when I've gotten them, and haven't lapped any since.

Wish I had seen that barber instruction earlier. Years ago when I was using a Coticule, I dished mine out pretty bad with a nagura stone. Took a long time and a lot of sweat to lap back to flat. Sure is pretty now, even if it doesn't get much use........:)

Lynn

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

I find these two hones are all i need . I am thinking of getting 6x2 dmt 600 for rebuilding bevels .

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I think this is common to most of us here, whether stones or razors. These 5 razors are all I need. I'm thinking of getting one more Satinedge.....

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Originally Posted by dantodd

I think this is common to most of us here, whether stones or razors. These 5 razors are all I need. I'm thinking of getting one more Satinedge.....

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I was removing achip on my dmt1200 and it took me so long . I've just order a double sided duo sharp plate 325 and 600 the differance being it will take me a lot less strokes.

I'm with Lynn and Bruno on this one. I hardly ever use Coticules, if I do, it's just to mess around. I don't restore razors, so I just maintain my own. Which need very little maintaining. You need the "Right" Coticule. No two are alike and they do take some mastering. I've come to like the Naniwa's, and for finishing I like J-Nats or Escher.
Even my Shapton gets little or no use at all....As far as setting a bevel on a Coticule, I just don't have that much time.