beginner honing difficulties

Ok, I think I'm getting to the point where I'm pretty much stumped.
I bought a Wade and Butcher that was advertised in shave-ready condition, and when it arrived it was anything but.
Rather than send it back to be re-honed, I'm taking this as an opportunity to learn how to hone myself.
I bought a Norton 4/8K combo stone and have been trying to learn everything that I can off the wiki and the videos.
The first go round was with pyramids, starting at 25/25 and going down to 1/7 - no results. Today watched one of the other videos on the wiki, and decided to just go to down on the 4K side and did 1000 laps or so, and the razor seems to me nearly as dull as ever, and absolutely will not cut arm hair. At this point my plan is just to keep working on my technique, and keep hitting the 4K side hard, and see if I can get anywhere with it before moving on to the 8 and CrOx. Any other suggestions?

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Originally Posted by STS

Ok, I think I'm getting to the point where I'm pretty much stumped.
I bought a Wade and Butcher that was advertised in shave-ready condition, and when it arrived it was anything but.
Rather than send it back to be re-honed, I'm taking this as an opportunity to learn how to hone myself.
I bought a Norton 4/8K combo stone and have been trying to learn everything that I can off the wiki and the videos.
The first go round was with pyramids, starting at 25/25 and going down to 1/7 - no results. Today watched one of the other videos on the wiki, and decided to just go to down on the 4K side and did 1000 laps or so, and the razor seems to me nearly as dull as ever, and absolutely will not cut arm hair. At this point my plan is just to keep working on my technique, and keep hitting the 4K side hard, and see if I can get anywhere with it before moving on to the 8 and CrOx. Any other suggestions?

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First, you have used a razor honed by someone here, right? It's always good to have a benchmark before even attempting.

Second, if the razor needs a bevel then you might want something lower than 4k (say in the 1k range) for that. Don't go any higher than that until it will shave arm hairs.

One of the best tips I got when I started was to use the marker test. Color the edge on both sides with a Sharpie (or whatever) and then do a few honing passes on each side with the razor flat, and see where contact is being made. Ideally it will remove the marker evenly but that seldom happens. Then you'll know where to focus the pressure/angles so that it comes out even.

All that said, I'm still learning this stuff myself and would defer to any of the true honemeisters for better advice. :)

Is it a large wedge by any chance ? Full hollow razors are generally a lot easier to learn with and some of those Sheffields have some tough steel. In general an inadequate bevel set can be the root of the problem. Do you have any magnification and did you set the bevel to the point where it passed a TNT and shaved arm hair before you started the pyramids ? You might be better off sending it out to a known honemeister and learning on full hollows.

Did you lap your stones?

Good advice given above and good questions to answer. The marker test is the first thing I would do. Modify your strokes if needed to clean the marker off the bevel in one stroke. If the blade smiles you may need to use a rolling x stroke. Smiling blades and wedges aren't the best to learn on. Moving down to a 1k hone is good advice to save time in you have the money for one but you can get there on a 4k. It will take a lot longer but is good practice for a newbie.

Here is another thread I replied to a while ago: http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...me-help-2.html

Good info in this thread also. My post is #12 and may help you get there a little quicker. If the 4k is you starting hone apply a bit more pressure until it passes the TNT and then repeat the circles on the 4k for one more round with lighter pressure to reduce the scratch pattern. If you are not familiar with the TNT search the WIKI on the menu bar above. Do answer the questions about the blade grind and if the blade smiles. It will require alterations to your technique.

Good luck

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Is it a large wedge by any chance ? Full hollow razors are generally a lot easier to learn with and some of those Sheffields have some tough steel. In general an inadequate bevel set can be the root of the problem. Do you have any magnification and did you set the bevel to the point where it passed a TNT and shaved arm hair before you started the pyramids ? You might be better off sending it out to a known honemeister and learning on full hollows.

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+1 ... You are really jumping in at the deep end if this is a wedge. Even a full hollow can be a challenge. Was this an expensive razor & are you comfortable with the idea you may put some unnecessary hone wear on it ?

Thanks to all for the helpful advice. To answer a couple of the questions, I did lap the stones using sandpaper; I don't have any magnification at the moment but that is probably something I should look for;

I can't quite tell if it's a full wedge but it does seem to be, and it does seem to be smiling also, so will pay some attention to the rolling x stroke

It was a relatively inexpensive razor, so I'm comfortable with there being some unnecessary hone wear if hitting this really hard will help me improve my skills before trying to hone a more expensive one at some point down the line.

I think you're making your life unnecessary difficult, but it's really up to you. You'll have to learn to at least keep your razors sharp, but it's easier to learn crawling and walking before sprinting.

Its tough to learn, thats for sure!

I found a good little tip in the Wiki that helps with smiling blades. It is to do a 45 degree angle with the heel of the blade leading.

Have a read of this article and hopefully this will help you on your way!

Strokes for honing a razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Good luck!

1000 passes on 4K? I'd apply tape and get to work, sounds like a geometry problem with the "spine". Do wedges have a spine?

I think you can shave with a spoon after 1000 passes on 4K.

I use a variation of the marker test. Do about 40 passes on 8K and see where the shine is. If its not fully along the bevel in pretty perfection, you'll be able to see where the problem is.

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Originally Posted by STS

Ok, I think I'm getting to the point where I'm pretty much stumped.
I bought a Wade and Butcher that was advertised in shave-ready condition, and when it arrived it was anything but.
Rather than send it back to be re-honed, I'm taking this as an opportunity to learn how to hone myself.
I bought a Norton 4/8K combo stone and have been trying to learn everything that I can off the wiki and the videos.
The first go round was with pyramids, starting at 25/25 and going down to 1/7 - no results. Today watched one of the other videos on the wiki, and decided to just go to down on the 4K side and did 1000 laps or so, and the razor seems to me nearly as dull as ever, and absolutely will not cut arm hair. At this point my plan is just to keep working on my technique, and keep hitting the 4K side hard, and see if I can get anywhere with it before moving on to the 8 and CrOx. Any other suggestions?

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I hope you realize what you are trying to do is not right way to go.
You have bought your blade shave ready condition.Doesn't matter from whom you bought(even it may be myself) you must contact to that person and tell him about your problem.
May be person made some mistake i am not sure what could be? But this is a life and no one is perfect.
Please do contact to the seller and let him know.
( i will tell you example. 1 member send me 2 razors to sharpen. 1 was rare razor another one was common dovo. i sharpened both(this is what i thought) and asked someone else to package and ship(i had bad news and need to deal with it). owner got razor and send me email that dovo is exactly how it was before. next razor was shave ready. i asked and paid for both ways for dovo send me the razor back. he send me back and he was right. Question how in the world i made such a mistake? i did sharpen the blade? yes indeed i did but wasn't his dovo but another persons dovo. same darn name and brand.? of course i sharpen his razor and send him back. he was happy with the results.)
i have nothing against you to learn hone the razor yourself. Just the way you are trying to is wrong.
you need to buy couple ebay junks and learn how to hone. after that go head hone your original razors. In this case you will make less damage to your blades.
hope this helps. gl

What I'll put forward for your consideration is that, in useable condition, a Wade & Butcher, or any vintage razor, is of a finite supply... there will be no more made, and the razor you hold (and intend to damage...) is irreplaceable.

Because of this antique quality of vintage razors, they are inherently *more* valuable than any modern production razor, even if you pay less currency for them. Screw up a new DOVO beyond repair? (hard to do...) Buy a new one. Ruin a W&B? Sorry, no more left.

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Originally posted by AFDavis11:
1000 passes on 4K? I'd apply tape and get to work

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I will cheerfully acknowledge I know next to nothing about honing. But my recent experience may be on point. I also recently acquired a wedge W&B in terrible shape. I put 2 layers of tape on the spine thinking that might be efficacious since it was a wedge, did a pyramid starting at 25 strokes on a Norton 4000/8000, polished on a Chinese 12k, polished some more with about 50 laps on a TI paddle strop with TI paste, and then stropped some more on a latigo strop. The razor shaves very, very well. That could be just dumb luck more than skill but I thought my experience might be of some relevance here.

Thanks again everyone; really good points I'm still at it, but without great results. Tape has helped, so it seems to be some kind of geometry problem (I realized that it's not a full wedge), combined with a smiling edge. It will still barely cut arm hair. Probably I need to go with the suggestions to get it professionally re-honed.

I've been told on this and other forums that a picture is worth a 1000 words... I'm much to knew at this to give advice.. other than to say.. maybe you could send a picture... Wade / Buthcher made all kinds... maybe this one is ok to learn on or... maybe you should be using a different blade to practice and learn on... A picture of your blade will tell the story and help these folks give you the correct advice.

Best of luck.. learning to hone... you'll get it.. Maq

Sorry for not responding for a while to that last post. Attached are some pictures of the razor.

In the second one you can clearly see what looks to me like two different bevels. I thought I was getting somewhere using tape, but the last time I tried the marker test I couldn't get the marker off at all, and you can actually still see a thin line of it in the second picture. I'm trying a 45 degree angle as well as a rolling X stroke, and still don't seem to be making much progress.

thanks again to all for the helpful advice.

It looks from the pictures like theres more wear in the centre of the spine than the edges? And the edge seems to be wearing more in the middle and the heel than it does on the toe? It looks like you are using far too much pressure from the wear thats showing, which will make it harder to get a good edge as well as wearing the razor down. The uneven wear may also indicate uneven pressure on the razor as you hone.

What was the hone wear like when you got the razor by the way?

What I'd do is put two (or even three) layers of tape on the spine and set an initial bevel on the razor. Do the marker test to make sure you have good contact all the way along the edge, and it may also be useful to get a loupe to keep an eye on how the edge is progressing. I have a W&B wedge and this really helped me get a good bevel set..!

Try doing circles as well as the X stroke to get the bevel set. Watch to make sure you are getting good contact along the whole edge of the razor and not just on one part.

Once the initial bevel is set, put one layer of tape on the spine and set a true bevel and then hone on from there.

I do also agree with Benjamin though. There are only a finite number of W&B's out there, and it would be better to send this one off to a pro and have it usable. Then I'd get a base level production razor and learn to hone on that. That way it doesnt matter if you wear it out as you can always get another..! :)

Good luck and keep us posted!

From your pics looks like not much belly left in that blade .
Are you getting hone marks on the base of the stabiliser ? It is thicker than the rest of the blade & may lift part of your edge off the stone.

:)Hi STS
Another beginner here- My second razor was a Nowill & Co wedge circa 1900-although my razor does not have a smile i managed to put a very sharp edge on the blade by holding the razor on the hone (10k - only hone i had at the time) with both hands and dragging it back towards me at about a 30/40 degree angle using light but firm pressure, spine first then turn it over and do the same again.
I do not know if this damaged my hone or even whether it is goog practice but the results were astonishing.All dings disappeared after only 5 strokes each side and a glorious edge appeared by magic.Next apply electrical tape to the spine X2 layers and hone on lowest grit till arm hairs pop off!
Leave the tape on and polish on highest grit hone for around 10/20/laps.You may have to adapt this to accomodate your smiling edge but you also might save alot of time as these wedges can be notoriously askew at both spine and edge.Its just the way they are forged!
by the way i must have done hundreds of laps to no avail before taking this measure.
Hope this helps .
regards
Noggs