My first honing on coticule

Actually, this was my first honing...ever. I have touched up on Barber's hone. That's about it.

- Dulled razor on glass.
- raised slurry, 30 half x strokes (followed bart's unicot method)
- test arm hair..nothing.
- repeated 2 and 3 about 20 times.
- finally got to shave arm hair. Not great, but it got it.

During the repeat steps I added water to the slurry and about 3 times I took the stone and created new slurry.

- taped spine, 30 regular x strokes
- rinsed stone, 50 x strokes on plain water
- 50 linen 50 leather (horsehide)

Test shave: rt side cheek... shaved. woo hoo. sharp, but not as sharp as I'm used to and not smooth at all.

So, I decided to do 20 strokes on the Barber's hone.

Test shave: left side cheek. Much rougher and pulling.

Stopped: posted here.

Suggestions? I like a nice, sharp and smooth shave. I'm sure most people do though.

My bevel looks great to my eye. I don't make the best x strokes, I know that. But where should I start to get this going right?

What grit is the Coticule...???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

What grit is the Coticule...???

---

huh? Never heard of them having a grit.

When you say you repeated steps 2&3 about 20 times, you did 600 passes with slurry then?

You say you're not very adept at the X stroke yet and you know that. What do you mean by that?

If your X stroke is not consistently even across the entire length of the blade on both sides resulting an any area not truly and completely making contact with the stone, you can hone for eternity and that area will remain dull or at best only partially honed (honing one side but not the other).

Chris L

Rick, if you are going to set a bevel on the coticule go back to the thick slurry. Work on that until you can get a consistent TNT all the way across the blade and then do a bit more with the thick slurry. Thin it out a bit and keep at it and see if it will shave arm hair. Keep at it and of course no more TNT, just TPT and go until you can easily shave arm hair touching the skin.

If you get to the point where the arm hair is just falling off try popping hair all the way across the blade without touching the skin. Keep diluting as you get progressively sharper. Once it pops hair it may be ready to strop and shave. This may take a couple of hours BTW. Depends on the razor, the hone and most of all the honer. That is why I like a synthetic bevel setter and sharpeners and finish on the coticule or even better an Escher . Just IMHO. :gl:

EDIT; Use a black marker on the edge to see that the stroke you are using is effective from heel to point. The marker will be removed if the stroke is effective. If you have an eye loupe or a microscope that is very beneficial in examining the quality of the edge.

I found in regards to my honing, no matter which hones I have used or which methods I have experimented with, the biggest major improvement came with the purchase of a $6 60x to 100x magnifying scope with led. I compare it to trying to walk around my entire house at night with the lights off as opposed to having the lights on. Good luck:tu

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rickboone

huh? Never heard of them having a grit.

---

Sorry man that was the whole point of the question, You have to figure out what stone you have in your hand frist off... There are differences..Then you have to figure out how to make, use, and dilute, the slurry to achieve the desired result off the unknown stone...
Oh yeah BTW you also have to know how to hone, as in do the X stoke, or Rolling X, or Swoop, or straight, or heel forward or 45 degree heel forward, and what pressure to apply at what stage of the honing...


These reasons are why so many of the experienced people said "Hmmmm That really might not be such a great idea for a Beginner"

Now you have to sit down and work that hone and the slurry until you get the desired result... Then after you finally do that on one razor, you have to repeat it all again for every different type of razor, this of course gets easier as you go....

The problem as always is no matter the advice given, you are still the only person that can tell what the stone is doing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rickboone

huh? Never heard of them having a grit.

---

Glen mean to approximately grit. Basically all cotcules not mean to use for straight razors.
Some of them in fact course 4k level and some 8k level. You will need to contact the seller and ask is this coticule suitable for straight razor.
In the over hand every stone will take time to learn it.
You just start to hone please spend a little more time(use junk blade for this purposes)
and see what you will be able to get out of your coticules.
In fact the best coticules will give to you smooth edge but sharpness always will be missing.

My best advise will be set the bevel with different stones
example 1k norton and move until 4k or 6k level after that you can try use your coticule.( in this case you will save a lot time)
GL

Edit" Glen i didn't read your above post. was typing.

No problem Sham :)


We were typing at the same time my friend...

The coticule is a vintage? combo stone; yellow and blue. I got it from a vendor that deals with straight razor products. So, I assume I have the right thing.

I followed Bart's unicot method. Basically at the start, 20 half x strokes on each side, test arm hair. It said you can do this 2-20 times. I did at least 20. So, yeah...doing the math, I suppose just on this one stroke I did do about 600ish. Wow, adds up quick.

But, as one of you say, it can take a few hours.

I agree and admit synthetics would be much faster. You said an Escher...I have a Thurry stone...isn't this the same? Or am I way off?

This was a test to see if I could make a razor shave ready. It was my very first time doing so. I say my stroke isn't really there on the x stroke, mainly because it isn't quite comfortable yet. When I have the blade coming towards me I feel quite "left-handed", though I am right handed. Feels odd. At times it raises. I have been trying to slow it down and keep it on the stone. Something I am sure I will get better at with practice. Or, under supervision of someone that knows what they are doing can say, "Hey, Rick...THIS way...!".

I suppose I should have kept generating and keeping a thick slurry on the stone whilst bevel setting?

I will do the marker test next time.

Should I start from the beginning or where? Say the razor has the bevel set and shaves arm hair and my marker test shows well? Wondering how/ where to start?

I suppose this is the "art" of honing all together, is it not? Knowing what a razor needs? Whether to start on 4k, or what? Or do most of you take it all the way back to the beginning or is each razor different? Just comes with time?

Thanks for all the great help.

BTW, I only have a coticule, thurry and barber's hone.

is that possible to post all your stones +razors pictures?
specially i like to know what type barber hone you have name .2 colors or not, Thurry is new ones or old ones, Lastly please do ask from the seller about your coticules.
if the seller as you said deals with straight razors then you are in very good shape . he could confirm is your coticule good enough for straight razors.
gl

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rickboone

Should I start from the beginning or where? Say the razor has the bevel set and shaves arm hair and my marker test shows well? Wondering how/ where to start?

---

Try the TNT. If the razor doesn't grab your thumb nail uniformly from heel to point the bevel needs more work. If it passes that and shaves arm hair touching the skin keep at it with light slurry until it will pop arm hair without touching the skin. The razor con video with Lynn and Glen honing here is a good tutorial on some honing techniques. You can't rely on prescribed numbers of strokes with what you have and what you are doing.

You have to hone and test to assess the progress you are making. The instructions in that unicot method were guidelines but each razor is different and may need more or less work. IME setting a bevel with a coticule is a task that requires patience and persistence. Some are faster cutters than others. You should see your slurry getting dark from the steel removal as you go. If it shows up fast you may have lucked out with a fast cutter. The Thuringan will probably be a good finisher once you've gotten the razor as sharp as you can on the coticule.

As you no doubt are starting to discover, honing is and art, and once you add variables to the system is gets really crazy. Your coticule is a big variable, as well as trying to do the whole process with the one stone... yikes...

As much as I want to have all naturals for my straights, I just haven't gotten there. However once I set my bevel up to 1k it's off to the naturals for maintainance from then on.

Look up the member map up in the "Community" tab and see if you have anyone close that you can contact. More eyes on the system can help out. It's not always easy to see your own shortcuts. I'm planning to film myself at different angles to see if I'm shortcutting anywhere, I dread watching them :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

is that possible to post all your stones +razors pictures?
specially i like to know what type barber hone you have name .2 colors or not, Thurry is new ones or old ones, Lastly please do ask from the seller about your coticules.
if the seller as you said deals with straight razors then you are in very good shape . he could confirm is your coticule good enough for straight razors.
gl

---

My barber's hone is a Swaty 3 line.
I will try to get a few pics later. Off to celebrate cinco de mayo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Try the TNT. If the razor doesn't grab your thumb nail uniformly from heel to point the bevel needs more work. If it passes that and shaves arm hair touching the skin keep at it with light slurry until it will pop arm hair without touching the skin. The razor con video with Lynn and Glen honing here is a good tutorial on some honing techniques. You can't rely on prescribed numbers of strokes with what you have and what you are doing.

You have to hone and test to assess the progress you are making. The instructions in that unicot method were guidelines but each razor is different and may need more or less work. IME setting a bevel with a coticule is a task that requires patience and persistance. Some are faster cutters than others. You should see your slurry getting dark from the steel removal as you go. If it shows up fast you may have lucked out with a fast cutter. The Thuringan will probably be a good finisher once you've gotten the razor as sharp as you can on the coticule.

---

I notice the slurry turns black really quickly. My assesement was the testing of arm hair. I haven't really done much in teh way of a tpt or tnt. I tried the TNT and really have no idea what I'm feeling for. Every time I've done it it feels the same at every level.

patience and persistance for sure. I will hit this again later on.

I wasn't so much expecting that an exact number of strokes would work. I was doing 30 each side, then checking the arm hair. Took many, many times before it halfway shaved arm hair. maybe I should've kept going until it shaved a little better on the arm hair?

You would say the thurry should finish more favorable than the coticule?

As stated earlier, it could take hours. I will keep this in mind and get comfortable.

Using the coticule the slurry quickly turns to a thick paste then starts drying out. I keep adding a few drops of water to keep the stone wet. Then it turns grey, so I add more water and eventually grab the slurry stone to create a new milky slurry. Am I doing this right? Anything here I should know?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DwarvenChef

As you no doubt are starting to discover, honing is and art, and once you add variables to the system is gets really crazy. Your coticule is a big variable, as well as trying to do the whole process with the one stone... yikes...

As much as I want to have all naturals for my straights, I just haven't gotten there. However once I set my bevel up to 1k it's off to the naturals for maintainance from then on.

Look up the member map up in the "Community" tab and see if you have anyone close that you can contact. More eyes on the system can help out. It's not always easy to see your own shortcuts. I'm planning to film myself at different angles to see if I'm shortcutting anywhere, I dread watching them :p

---

I did this once. Will have to contact the person again. This was a while back. I agree, having a pair of eyes to see is great.

I will have to get myself a bevel setter one day. Though, this is my only un-honed razor. Something I was just playing around with, really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rickboone

I notice the slurry turns black really quickly. My assesement was the testing of arm hair. I haven't really done much in teh way of a tpt or tnt. I tried the TNT and really have no idea what I'm feeling for. Every time I've done it it feels the same at every level.

patience and persistance for sure. I will hit this again later on.

I wasn't so much expecting that an exact number of strokes would work. I was doing 30 each side, then checking the arm hair. Took many, many times before it halfway shaved arm hair. maybe I should've kept going until it shaved a little better on the arm hair?

You would say the thurry should finish more favorable than the coticule?

As stated earlier, it could take hours. I will keep this in mind and get comfortable.

Using the coticule the slurry quickly turns to a thick paste then starts drying out. I keep adding a few drops of water to keep the stone wet. Then it turns grey, so I add more water and eventually grab the slurry stone to create a new milky slurry. Am I doing this right? Anything here I should know?

---

With the TNT a razor that is dull will slide across the nail without grabbing at all. As it gets sharp it will begin to grab. When it offers resistance because it is digging into the nail it is ready to move on to the TPT. How this should feel is a learned skill. IOW, knowing how much resistance to look for. Just the weight of the blade BTW.

For the TPT if you have a new DE blade to try it you'll get an idea of what you're feeling for. Here again it is resistance. A dull blade won't grab the thumb pad the way a keen edge will. Arm hair is fine to test with as long as it lasts. It becomes a scarce commodity as time and honing go on so learning the other tests is good to preserve the arm hair for another day and avoid looking as if you have a skin condiition. :)

I put a lot of water on my stone and create the slurry. I do add water if I have to but my slurry/water seems to last a pretty good while. If it is very discolored ai rinse the stone and start with clean slurry. Just me, not sure what others do. I dilute when I get to the point where I intuitively know it is time. The TPT and arm hair tell me too.

Some people might disagree but for my particular face a razor finished off of a Thuringan gives a slightly better .... as in more smooth and comfortable shave. Nothing shabby about the shave off a coticule and sometimes I go with that if I'm in the mood. Try it both ways once you get that razor and maybe others shaving for you.

I would email Bart pictures of your coticule, they're all different and yours may work differently than mine, etc.

mine is a very fast cutter with slurry, super fast, it turns slurry black in ten passes. On water it's the slowest hone in the world and polishes only after about 200 passes or so. It is a La Nouvelle Veine and from the faster side of that layer of coticule.I really had to tune in my dilution method to make sure I get keenness from the water without diluting to much and not having any keenness. You can see mine here:
http://coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/458.html

Once Bart tells you what kind of Coticule you have you can then ask him the speed of the hone (about) in slurry and in water. Then you will need to tune your dilution method to get the razor to be truly shave ready.

Honing only on a coticule is HARD and it takes a TON of experience and practicing. This is why I prefer synthetic hones and then finishing on an Escher.

You can PM me if you want me to explain more, I have practiced this method.

My coticule: It has some words on it, but the only one I can read is "Shields."

I brought it back out tonight, slurried up and started at it. I checked and it could shave arm hair. So, I did a few x strokes. Then... I remembered the marker. I did this then started at it. The marker took a while to come off. I was thinking a few passes it'd be gone. But, not. I used green so I could see better.

Well, I said my stroke needs work. I mentioned when I take the edge away from me I sometimes come off the hone. The marker shows I do this quite a bit. The toe on that side had hardly any bevel. The marker stayed there a LONG time.

So, my plan is to try and start over. I will try sitting at the kitchen table instead of holding it in my hand. I like the feel of holding the hone in my hand but I am not having good results. Obviously.

The marker test will tell you what you need to do relative to the stroke. When I apply marker I generally get more than I need. We are only concerned with the very edge of the razor. Once the maker reveals the effective stroke I wipe the residue off with a solvent such as lighter fluid (because I have it) or alcohol.

Take your time and focus on the stroke. If you have to put your index finger on the point do so. It may be a 90 degree angle is what is required or it may be a heel leading 45 degree angle. In extreme cases the rolling x. The marker will tell you which is appropriate for that particular blade.

The focus should be on keeping the spine on the hone without lifting it with the bevel that is directly parallel also on the hone without lifting it. Bevel setting requires some pressure while sharpening demands less and finishing even less. It is an art as well as a science. Hard to put into words. Keep at it and you'll get there.

That's what I mean, the marker was gone on the very edge except on the toe on one side. Evident I am lifting. I am putting my finger on it but have this fear of slicing myself. lol. I think I need to spend more time watching videos of people honing too. Have a refresher course. That, and keep practicing. I find this fun and relaxing for sure. I can see why so many enjoy it.

Knowing about this lifting habit has me questioning my stropping now.

Reading this thread reminds me why people should not start to learn honing on coticule, its not an easy hone to start with.
I'd go for a nice old fashioned Norton set to learn the strokes and develop muscle memory, and then move to more sophisticated hones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainaman

Reading this thread reminds me why people should not start to learn honing on coticule, its not an easy hone to start with.
I'd go for a nice old fashioned Norton set to learn the strokes and develop muscle memory, and then move to more sophisticated hones.

---

You're not the first to say that and I respect your opinion. That said, I do not own other hones at the moment.

My question is; WHY learn on Nortons? Or any synthetic for that matter? Just using Norton as an example because that is what you said.

Is it the fact that they produce faster results? Is that the only benefit of learning on something else? Or are there other reasons?

If just speed, what is wrong with learning slowly or going slowly? Do you find people develop bad habits during this slow process or they get frustrated and rush it or what?

The difference is this: from a dull razor.... this all assumes you can do a proper stroke

Norton 1k do 20 circles using heavy pressure per side
do 20 circles per side using medium pressure
do TNT does it grab all the down the edge No??? Repeat the last step Yes?
do 20 laps light pressure

4k do 20 laps light pressure check arm hair test does it pass NO??? Repeat last step Yes go to 8k

8k Do 20 laps do TPT does it get really sticky??? NO??? Repeat last step
Yes??? Strop and test shave


Or follow the Pyramid method...


See we know the quantity and quality of the stones, we can answer every question with exact info.. Same with Naniwas and Shaptons

But with the Naturals (not just the Coticule) we don't really know what you have there.... We have to guess, we have to make even more assumptions then we normally do with trying to help people learn this, on the internet...
Now if we were sitting at the same table then all this that I just typed doesn't matter one bit...


You know how we always give advice about getting your first razor Professionally shave ready, to eliminate one variable form the equation for learning to shave???? same principal here...There is nothing bad or good regarding the method or the stone there are just more variables to overcome..

Well said, Glen. Makes sense to me.

lets hope this will answer to your questions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rickboone

My question is; WHY learn on Nortons? Or any synthetic for that matter? Just using Norton as an example because that is what you said.

Code:

---

Because you are getting constant results

---

Is it the fact that they produce faster results?

Quote:

---

no

---

Is that the only benefit of learning on something else? Or are there other reasons?

If just speed, what is wrong with learning slowly or going slowly? Do you find people develop bad habits during this slow process or they get frustrated and rush it or what?

---

Quote:

---

They get frustrated and takes too long time them to find out their edge is not the right edge shave with it. Don't get me wrong there is a nice coticules out there and took me 6 years to get one . I don't know how long will take you to get right coticule. if you ask sellers in that case they may get you right one.

---

BTW what kind of razor is this??? and was it ever shaving for you in the past???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

BTW what kind of razor is this??? and was it ever shaving for you in the past???

---

It is a Genco. I've never shaved with it, no. I will get some pics up. It is one I picked up non shave ready and the razor closed slightly off center. It has been sitting around awaiting repair when I got a wild hair and decided to try my hand at honing last night.

With the synthetic (Norton and such) you remove ALOT of variables, everyone that has a norton 4k/8k knows what 4k and 8k another person has and uses. Natural stones are a pure variable no two are really alike, even ones cut from the same slab show variation. Thats why it's commonly said not to start with naturals, not that it's imposable or undoable. You have it so you may as well use it. But I bet you have also worn it down a bit already? Synthetics tend to be a quarter the price with fixed grits, making it easier to feel the difference between stones and feel how the razor acts on those stones.

There was a thread not long ago about everything on one coticule and it was ugly at times. All I'm saying is that it's not imposable to learn the way your doing it, it's just very hard and puts alot of wear on a stone that should last a few life times, not a few months...

Good choice of razor to start honing with, Genco's are normally very easy on the hones if there are even in sorta good shape... at least ya didn't say wedge :)

Get the pics up and maybe some of the guys that are really good with the method can talk you through yer first one...

Embrace the challenge brother we all did at one point in time !!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rickboone

You're not the first to say that and I respect your opinion. That said, I do not own other hones at the moment.

My question is; WHY learn on Nortons? Or any synthetic for that matter? Just using Norton as an example because that is what you said.

Is it the fact that they produce faster results? Is that the only benefit of learning on something else? Or are there other reasons?

If just speed, what is wrong with learning slowly or going slowly? Do you find people develop bad habits during this slow process or they get frustrated and rush it or what?

---

My personal opinion, because you do not have to learn the character of your stone when you can't even produce an even stroke because of inexperience. When you have some practice under your belt with built muscle memory and knowing exactly what to look for in a razor in terms of edge problems uneven honewear etc, then you can go on to use fancier stones.
You are trying to do two things from scratch learn how to hone and learn how to use coticule which on itself has a few variables that you need to determine on your own to get the job done.
Your results can be off because you either do not have consistent stroke technique, too much pressure, you do not know how to use the coti in terms of proper dilution and so on, or the razor has some problem and you are not addressing it. That is a lot of variables there, and by using a well established and consistent synthetic progression all you have to worry about is stroke,pressure and the right type of stroke.
Hope this answers the question.

How many passes does it take for your slurry to turn grey or black? This is very important to know because it will show you how the hone develops keenness to the edge. If the hone is very fast, like mine with slurry, then once the slurry is blackened you can actually go in reverse and the slurry will DULL THE EDGE again. If your coticule is slow with slurry it will just take more passes to get the bevel going and develop a keen edge. The faster ones with slurry seem to be the hardest to learn on because they start to go backwards and dull the razor in the slurry. Mine is very hard to learn on and it takes a long time to master, Bart even told me this in the thread I linked on page 2.

Sham said something to me that made a lot of sense when he mentioned honing on a coticule vs a norton or something for a beginner:

"Why ride a camel to a place far away when you can drive a car?"

The mystique of honing on a coticule is a great one and it's a lot more "Earthy" of an experience. I think more down to Earth people that like being outdoors find that appealing about the coticule, it's basic once you learn it well and old fashioned.

I would at least ask someone to use their Norton 4k/8k and see how it feels compared to the coticule and see if you like the results better.

The coticule is harder to master . You can get a fantastic shave of coticule, with the right no how. for a beginner it would be difficult. unicot on the other hand would be easy. I never liked messing with double bevels. I started on 4k 8k still can be tricky if you have no experiance. I think you have to get a old razor and just practice daily for 10 minutes your honing stroke. Practice the roll and normal x strokes. Then you will be more confident in your stroke. If you only want one hone then coticule it is. Also 4k/8k combo is ideal one hone followed by coticule.

i liked both hones and would have them both if i was you. Or the naniwas instead of nortons.

Rick, I understand exactly where you are coming from, everyone has given you excellent advice, and while the answers may not be the ones you want to hear, it might help to slow down a little and rethink your position.

I personally do not feel qualified to give advice, but I will share the story of my honing journey with you. I first purchased a set of Norton’s based on everyone’s advice on the board, and got a DMT for lapping. I focused on proper strokes, pressure (or lack thereof) and learned the TNT, TPT, and marker test, I made many attempts to make the Norton’s work for me, but the the 4K always felt gritty, and I could never get a bevel set properly, during this learning curve I completely destroyed a Wapi, and so I put the Norton’s in a closet and left them there.

I then bought a coticule from Sham, and I was excited, I felt like now I would be able to hone a razor, after all everyone loves coti’s right? I followed many tips and tricks, and while I didn’t “ruin” any razors, I wasn’t able to make a blade shave ready. I blamed my failure on the coticule, and so I bought more coticules (and developed HAD), seeking the magic one that would make a honer. Then Bart came out with his “unicot method”, which I followed to the letter,I wasn’t crazy about taping the spine, but I was desperate for a method that would work for me. I tried it on four different coticules using a 7 day set I had picked up, all the blades were identical, the only variable’s were the coticules and my inexperienced hand. As I followed Bart’s method it became clear to me that out of the 4 coticules I had at the time, only one of them really did well at setting a bevel, so I went back and re-honed the razors using that one coti, and I actually achieved an edge that I could shave with, If I recall my words were that the blades were not “Scary Sharp” but sharp enough to have a smooth shave, it was a milestone, and I felt like I had conquered Mt. Everest and was on top of the world! Then the rain came down on me, and Glen (GSSIXGUN) challenged me, he asked me how a razor that was not honed to its full sharpness potential could give a good shave, I replied that “it works for me, and I am happy with the shave I get off the coticule”, but Glen’s words always nagged me in the back of my mind, and even though I didn’t want to admit it, I knew he was right and I still was missing something, because I was still buying razors from honemeisters to get good shaves.

Then another path of my journey came, I read a post by Lynn that talked about the Norton’s needing to be heavily lapped to expose a “good surface” and get past the “grittiness”. So following his advice I drug the Norton’s out of the closet and lapped off about a 1/8 of an inch, and lo and behold, I had a much smoother surface on my 4 K! I then took a Boker “red injun” and honed it following Lynn’s pyramid method, and it worked flawlessly, it was popping arm hair in mid air! I then used my harder coticule to polish, and finished with my Escher, and I achieved my sharpest blade ever! Now I knew I was onto something, so I tried another razor, and guess what? Same results! 30 razors later I knew I was finally able to hone my own razors and achieve the results I desired! It was during this time that I realized how right Glen, Lynn, Sham, Jimmy, and all the other experts here were when they emphasized how important the lower grits are and how the only way to get a blade really sharp is to focus on the bevel, everything else is just icing on the cake.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have stayed with the synthetics until I achieved good result before I moved on to the more difficult naturals. I have continued to add Natural stones to my collection, I love the way they smell, and the way they feel, and the way they finish my edges, but, it is a continuous process getting to know each of them and understand their individual capabilities, and while my Norton’s may being boring, their ability to remain consistent gives my blades a sharpness that provides the foundation to an edge that delights my face every day.


So in a nutshell, here is what I have learned:
· Take the time to work on your strokes, start slowly, speed will develop over time
· Bevel setting is THE most important step in the process of attaining sharpness
· Test often – TNT, TPT
· Synthetic’s are like machines, they performs the same task over and over, with excellent consistency for repeatable results
· Coticules are like humans, everyone is different, each has a different skill set, and it takes time to learn their personalities, and when you add in different concentrations of slurry, and the variables are become endless.

If you decide to get some synthetics and want a practice razor, Pm me your address and I will send you one, it isn’t pretty, but its better to learn with one that isn’t too valuable

Thats an exallant post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by currentman

Rick, I understand exactly where you are coming from, everyone has given you excellent advice, and while the answers may not be the ones you want to hear, it might help to slow down a little and rethink your position.

I personally do not feel qualified to give advice, but I will share the story of my honing journey with you. I first purchased a set of Norton’s based on everyone’s advice on the board, and got a DMT for lapping. I focused on proper strokes, pressure (or lack thereof) and learned the TNT, TPT, and marker test, I made many attempts to make the Norton’s work for me, but the the 4K always felt gritty, and I could never get a bevel set properly, during this learning curve I completely destroyed a Wapi, and so I put the Norton’s in a closet and left them there.

I then bought a coticule from Sham, and I was excited, I felt like now I would be able to hone a razor, after all everyone loves coti’s right? I followed many tips and tricks, and while I didn’t “ruin” any razors, I wasn’t able to make a blade shave ready. I blamed my failure on the coticule, and so I bought more coticules (and developed HAD), seeking the magic one that would make a honer. Then Bart came out with his “unicot method”, which I followed to the letter,I wasn’t crazy about taping the spine, but I was desperate for a method that would work for me. I tried it on four different coticules using a 7 day set I had picked up, all the blades were identical, the only variable’s were the coticules and my inexperienced hand. As I followed Bart’s method it became clear to me that out of the 4 coticules I had at the time, only one of them really did well at setting a bevel, so I went back and re-honed the razors using that one coti, and I actually achieved an edge that I could shave with, If I recall my words were that the blades were not “Scary Sharp” but sharp enough to have a smooth shave, it was a milestone, and I felt like I had conquered Mt. Everest and was on top of the world! Then the rain came down on me, and Glen (GSSIXGUN) challenged me, he asked me how a razor that was not honed to its full sharpness potential could give a good shave, I replied that “it works for me, and I am happy with the shave I get off the coticule”, but Glen’s words always nagged me in the back of my mind, and even though I didn’t want to admit it, I knew he was right and I still was missing something, because I was still buying razors from honemeisters to get good shaves.

Then another path of my journey came, I read a post by Lynn that talked about the Norton’s needing to be heavily lapped to expose a “good surface” and get past the “grittiness”. So following his advice I drug the Norton’s out of the closet and lapped off about a 1/8 of an inch, and lo and behold, I had a much smoother surface on my 4 K! I then took a Boker “red injun” and honed it following Lynn’s pyramid method, and it worked flawlessly, it was popping arm hair in mid air! I then used my harder coticule to polish, and finished with my Escher, and I achieved my sharpest blade ever! Now I knew I was onto something, so I tried another razor, and guess what? Same results! 30 razors later I knew I was finally able to hone my own razors and achieve the results I desired! It was during this time that I realized how right Glen, Lynn, Sham, Jimmy, and all the other experts here were when they emphasized how important the lower grits are and how the only way to get a blade really sharp is to focus on the bevel, everything else is just icing on the cake.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have stayed with the synthetics until I achieved good result before I moved on to the more difficult naturals. I have continued to add Natural stones to my collection, I love the way they smell, and the way they feel, and the way they finish my edges, but, it is a continuous process getting to know each of them and understand their individual capabilities, and while my Norton’s may being boring, their ability to remain consistent gives my blades a sharpness that provides the foundation to an edge that delights my face every day.


So in a nutshell, here is what I have learned:
· Take the time to work on your strokes, start slowly, speed will develop over time
· Bevel setting is THE most important step in the process of attaining sharpness
· Test often – TNT, TPT
· Synthetic’s are like machines, they performs the same task over and over, with excellent consistency for repeatable results
· Coticules are like humans, everyone is different, each has a different skill set, and it takes time to learn their personalities, and when you add in different concentrations of slurry, and the variables are become endless.

If you decide to get some synthetics and want a practice razor, Pm me your address and I will send you one, it isn’t pretty, but its better to learn with one that isn’t too valuable

---

This is Priceless.
Thank you for honest post.

i wish more people same as you will come out and explain their experience.
Not every coticule mean to use for straight razors.
They are natural hones and approximate grit is 4-8k level.
check this list from srp member.


GRADE by (Oldengaerde)

Common
Quarter Fine
Half Fine
No. 1 Fine
Superfine
Extra Choice
Extra Choice Sel.
Barbers' Special
Old Hickory
Old Rock
_____________
Only last 3 is suitable for straight razor. JimmyHAD BOUGHT Last 2 available ones .
To get right coticule took me years and i get only 1.
That is why it is not easy to find right coticule for use straight razor.
you have to ask question from seller about your stone.
About Unicot/Dulicot
Just doesn't make sense to me . i wanted ask couple questions about them from Bart.i tried to log in to Bart's site and unfortunately i assume he has block my ip address.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Disburden

I would email Bart pictures of your coticule, they're all different and yours may work differently than mine, etc.

mine is a very fast cutter with slurry, super fast, it turns slurry black in ten passes. On water it's the slowest hone in the world and polishes only after about 200 passes or so. It is a La Nouvelle Veine and from the faster side of that layer of coticule.I really had to tune in my dilution method to make sure I get keenness from the water without diluting to much and not having any keenness. You can see mine here:
My one and only coticule - home of the famous Belgian Coticule Whetstone

Once Bart tells you what kind of Coticule you have you can then ask him the speed of the hone (about) in slurry and in water. Then you will need to tune your dilution method to get the razor to be truly shave ready.

Honing only on a coticule is HARD and it takes a TON of experience and practicing. This is why I prefer synthetic hones and then finishing on an Escher.

You can PM me if you want me to explain more, I have practiced this method.

---

Not to go off topic, but I find the performance of your coticule as you describe it very interesting and even curious. I am not a coticule expert. I've used and owned maybe 10 different coticules ranging from mostly "vintage" to newly mined and of different hardness and cutting ability/speed. With my fast cutting coticules, to a stone, they are what I'd consider to be "soft". In contrast, the coticule stones I have that I consider to be slow but good polishers are hard; akin to honing on glass. Polar opposites. Actually, my softest and fastest cutting coticules are NOT good finishers. They cut too well. In contrast again, my hard coticules that polish well but are slow wouldn't raise a slurry on their own if I literally did 1,000 passes with water. This stone I speak of, an 8"x3" natural combo with olive green coticule surface I would rate easily at 12k+. If I raise a slurry artificially and only from the stone using say a 600 grit DMT (versus using another coticule rubbing stone), those hard polishers simply will not cut rapidly.

Your stone seems to perform both cutting and polishing at both extremes (fast cutter with slurry and slow but effective polisher with water).

I'm perplexed and intrigued. Why do you think your stone performs this way?

Edit: I read your link to Bart's site about your stone. I'll have to take pics of my fastest cutter and post them if Rick, the OP doesn't mind. My fastest vintage stone has a look similar to yours and by your picture I would venture to say your stone when dry has a "soft" creamy almost velvety sensation rather than a hard glass like surface? I can believe Bart then, that such a stone simply requires mastery of its uniqueness to uncover its polishing ability. Natural hones in general can be tricky to master or discover the "sweet spot". To date, I'll say mine seems simply to cut too effectively to put an ultra fine polish on the bevels like my other coticules can. Don't get me wrong, I have every intention of keeping the fast soft coticule I have; but, not for its polishing abilities, but instead for its cutting ability.

Chris L

Chris,

The stone is actually hard, I will have to comment more when I am home from work, but if I drag my finger nail on it it doesn't scratch the stone easily. I haven't owned many coticules but it definitely is not soft. It's a very strange hone and it's very "bipolar" in the way it cuts. It has veins in the upper and side surfaces (As you see in the picture), so I am thinking maybe that impacts the slurry speed? Literally 10 Half strokes with milky slurry causes a blackened swarf on the hone, if I am polishing with water I need to do 100 laps or more to get acceptable results. It takes a very calculated approach to dilute the slurry to gain keenness into the polishing stages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Just doesn't make sense to me . i wanted ask couple questions about them from Bart.i tried to log in to Bart's site and unfortunately i assume he has block my ip address.

---

No one is blocked on my website. We currently don't see the need to monitor or block IP addresses. Everyone is welcome, even to disagree. You're as welcome to drop by as anyone else, Sham. There were some problems with the server on May 1st and 2nd. Maybe that caused your problem.

About the hart of the matter: I bet you all know I disagree with a some of what has been said in this thread. There are many ways and worthy hones to sharpen a razor. Nortons, Naniwa's, Shaptons, Japanese Natural hones, Coticules, Thuringians. They all require a decent honing stroke. Apart from that, each setup has its approach, some closely related, other's more deviating from the current mainstream. I'm writing "current" mainstream, because these things tend to be in motion, as anyone that would care to dig up threads from a few years ago, could find out.

I can only testify the following.

In between August 2009 and today, I have throughly assessed over 50 Coticules. The stones were only selected on size (to allow for razor sharpening) and to come from as many different Coticule layers as I could get my hands on.
I have sharpened a minimum of 3 razors on each of these, each razor test shaved at least half of my face with a WTG and ATG pass, and then some tweaking strokes. About 2/3 of the razors honed, were sent to me for honing. There haven been 2 Coticules of those 50 (both from "La Veine aux CLous"), that could not set a bevel. Maurice of Ardennes warned me up front that they were probably to slow for razors, but I wanted to try anyway. The finishing properties were excellent.
I occasionally score a razor on Ebay, usually in abominable state, because I don't like to spend much. These razors often come with seriously rounded bevels, and it happens that I need to file out my DMT-600 to do in 5 or 10 minutes what would otherwise take me a small hour on a speedy Coticule. But for the razors sent to me, that were mostly dulled beyond touch-up from regular use, I haven't felt the need to visit the DMT-600. I raise slurry once. It takes me in between 15 and 1 minute to set the bevel. (my rule of thumb is that when 10 minutes of work doesn't show the least hint of a bevel being completed, I jump down to something coarser). When the bevel is present, I start the dilution stage. That takes me 4 or 5 minutes, but I imagine it might take someone inexperienced 15 minutes. Finishing takes 30 laps or so.
Should it fail (which it did 9 times out of 10 at my beginning, now about 1 out of 10, I rely on the HHT straight off the hone to decide), it takes another few minutes to tape the spine and take give the razor 20 laps on very thin slurry and 50 on water.

That's how it has been working for me. Is this the easiest way to sharpen a razor? I don't know. I didn't start straight razor shaving because it was the easiest way to shave my beard. It appealed to me for the tradition and artisanship, and so does sharpening with a Coticule. If my ancestors could do it with just that stone, so could I, I figured.

There's this person in Antwerp, who owns a store that sells shaving paraphernalia. For about 20 years, he's hosting shaving courses. There's usually a waiting list. He also uses the Coticule for bevel setting (although he doesn't call it that way). His approach is simple and elegant: he hones on milky slurry till the bevel is ready. (he has some kind of test, watching how the edge undercuts a thin film of water on the hone). Then he finishes the edge on a paddle strop with Dovo red paste. His razors shave well. He recommends to touch-up on the same Dovo red paste. When that fails to restore a good shave, he puts it back on the Coticule.
I didn't follow the course, but I saw him do it, and I own a copy of his manual. I believe his approach sticks close to how razors where sharpened 70-100 years ago.
That Coticules could be used as a finisher as well, is something I picked up on this very website.
The real challenge, in my opinion and experience is getting the right keenness off a Coticule, to unleash its full finishing potential. Setting a bevel on it is not harder than let's say setting a bevel on a 2K synthetic. Finishing on it is not hard at all. Just 30-50 laps (in my opinion). But what's in between those two, that's the part that needs to be mastered, or obtained with help of a good synthetic hone in the 6-10K range. Gary has been reporting great results with his Naniwa 10K for that. And I have good experiences with the Chosera 10K myself. Obviously both these hones have finishing ambitions of there own. I believe it's a matter of personal preference whether someone favors the Coticule finish on top of that. I know I do.

Kind regards,
Bart.

I certainly agree with the personal preference Bart. It would really help if you had more experience with other stones from a comparison standpoint. I have honed a couple thousand razors using the Coticule as a finisher and although it is a nice stone and will work, it has never produced either the best results or the most consistent results for me as a finisher. As far as bevel setting, I have used your method on several hundred razors off of 4 Coticules and an Escher and a Japanese Asagi and can tell you that I cannot find an old wedge with uneven hone wear which is different on both sides that I can get a decent bevel on in 15 minutes. I can't get a bevel started on most in this condition in 15 minutes even with a 220 grit stone. Great that you are having these kind of results. I find your method works best when there is minimal flattening on the spine and will work with some flattening, but again 15 minutes is not something anyone can do and particularly not a new person. The method itself in my opinion is very cool. I also find that I need to tinker with the finish on many razors still when finishing using your method with a Coticule. I am also glad that I own a few Coticules and they are fun to play with.

I admire your undying passion and love for the Coticules and again believe they are a very nice stone. I also believe there are better stones both Natural and Synthetic and look forward to discovering more great stones in the future as I look forward to additional methodologies and discoveries from you.

All the best,

Lynn