Can't get TI razor to hold an edge

I agree with lynn...when you hone in my opinion unless you are trying to get out knicks never put pressure on blade on stone...I had a similar problem with new TI and after talking with lynn he felt that I had overhoned the blade and we went back to 3/3 1/3 1/3 and then on to a 12000 stone and the problem was corrected...I always use the x stroke ...I used to have a problem with the angle of the blade changing as I came off the stone but I solved that by balanceing the razor on the stone...I take on hand and put in under the end of handle to keep level and support the razor as it comes off the side of stone...the other hand is lightly on the end of the blade with no pressure guiding the razor down the stone...I purchased a codicul 12000 stone to finish my hones...best money I ever spent...makes a huge difference in final sharpining...after normal pyamid 3/3 3/1 3/1 I do 15-20 passes on 12000 and blade is really sharp...with regard to hair test its a waste of time and not a good test of sharpness...shaving with the razor is really the only way to tell...Also if your ti is demascus we are talking a different ball game as the blade has to be stablized over a period of days before it is going to be sharp stay sharp and hold a great edge...

The material left on the stone forms a slurry that enhances the action of the hone. Its important with natural stones but I don't think its that critical a factor with ceramics like the norton.

I have several TI's including a damascus and they are harder but even though when I hone them I still don't use any downward pressure just some more strokes and that seems to do it. When I got my TI Damascus it was in a sorry state and wouldn't shave a damn and I spent many an hour with that thing trying every trick I could think of to get it sharp. I used the Norton 4K, 8K and Japanese 12K waterstone all kinds of combinations, X pattern Straight pattern, back honing, pressure no pressure and I made very little progress. It shaved but I just never seemed to be able to get it where I wanted it. It was very fustrating. Finally after I got the yellow coticule a few sessions on that with no pressure and sharpened it up beautifully.

So the moral of the story is don't give up and keep trying different approaches and eventually you'll get it.

I agree whole heartedly with big sp...listen to the man... every thing he says esp about the yellow codicle...If some one is really serious about honing and wants great finished results then the purchase of a 12000 yellow cod is essential...I also agree about the ti I have 4 which I purchased new and had the same prob with 2 of them...I did same as big sp... now they shave great...

Seems like what I should do next is try the yellow coticule. I spent another 2.5 hrs tonight with the Nortons, relapped the 8K, and spent lots of time trial shaving, etc... I did shave with it, but it was a painful experience. This razor just won't get sharp for me.

This TI is the base model full hollow 6/8 on the classicshaving website. I don't think it's anything exotic as far as the steel goes. They only say high carbon steel on the website.

Everything I tried just seemed to get the thing to the same level of sharpness, but it was never really all that great. It shaves, but pulls terribly. :-(

Those coticule stones are quite expensive! Would a blue stone be as effective as yellow?

E

I believe 4 factors are in play...1st in honing more is not better...as I said in prev post I believe you have destroyed your edge but its not difficult to redefine edge...on norton 4/8 3/3 3/1 3/1 15-20 on yellow cod...2nd you need 12000 cod stone but need diff stroke on cod much shorter X more exagerated so as to take advantage of slur...3rd are you usinga puma stone before using 4/8 to clean norton? get stone wet and use pummace to clean prev shavings from norton ...3rd work on your technique NO PRESSURE on blade and keep blade level and pressureless coming offstone in X stroke...4th give your face a rest either dont shave for a couple of days or get the gel razor out and let your skin recover also the stubble you feel disappears after you have removed lather and repeatedly used ice cold water to close pores and then used aftershave...also stretch your skin tighter and lessen the angle of blade to your face so as to reduce drag and shave rather than scrape your face...one of the best investments I made was to purchase a used microscope not a medical one but one used by stereo shops to examine needles...$10 radioshack scopes will make you go blind esp if you are honing more than one razr...if edge looks great under scope usually hone is good

Wow, the clarman down from the mountain. That's absolute sagely wisdom there.

On NO Pressure:
Small aterations make substantial changes to the outcome.
1. keep you wrist in exactly the same position for the left-right pass as the right-left.
2. position your thumb toward the edge side of the shank in either case and ofset it with your first finger on the spine side of the shank underneath. That will mean changing only the position of thumb and forefinger. Otherwise the grip is the same for both directions, but this slight change will keep the edge in contact with the hone sufficiently to get the edge we're looking for.

X

There is the REMOTE possibility that you are not reaching the very edge with the hone. I had a razor where the geometry of the edge did not allow the hone to reach the very edge. It was coming within 1/32 to maybe 1/64 of an inch from reaching the very edge. I could tell this buy using an Opti-Visor, a magnigying glass that you wear on your head, while honing and checking the hone marks on the blade at the edge. You cold actutally see that the hone was not reaching the very edge. I finally in frustration had to add electricians tape to the spine to change the angle of attack to get to the edge. This did work, however in order to strop the razor I removed the tape and honed down the edge and the spine so that everything was on the same plane. This has only happened to me once and I imagine that it is very rare but just thought that I would mention it just in case.

Thanks for the information. I'm a little disappointed that I can't seem to sharpen this particular razor, where I had no trouble at all with my Dovo. The last few posts here seem to suggest that the yellow coticule, Belgian whetstone, is key to getting the proper edge. If this is indeed the case, it speaks more to the metallurgy of the quenching and heat tempering process that Theirs-Issard uses in their manufacturing process. It would be most useful to know the hardness of the blade metal before deciding on a honing scheme. There are several common hardness tests which are rigorously defined in metallurgy: Brinell, Rockwell, and Vickers. Knowing on or more of these values would make the process easier. I haven't seen that the manufacturers advertise this information anywhere. I don't really know to what tolerance these hardness values are even controlled by the manufacturers.

It's not that I find the act of sliding the blade down the hone difficult to master, it's that there is no satisfactory metric for determining the blade contact area and pressure. There are, of course, many other variables here, but those are clearly important ones.

I'll get this blade sharp eventually. The day I get it nice and sharp and give myself a great shave will be some serious satisfaction. :-)

E

The fact that you're getting a sharp edge that disappears quickly is telling. This is most likely to happen if you have a wire edge or a weak edge. In both cases the blade will be sharp, but the material is too thin to stand up to shaving.

The idea is to backhone until the wire or weak edge is gone then gradually sharpen up the blade until it's just shaving sharp. It may not be as sharp as you've had it, but try it and see if holds the edge.

You didn't say whether the razor was new or off Ebay. Many Ebay razors have oxidized edges. Depending on how bad it is, the edge can either crumble when you make it thin on a fine stone. or it may hold up and break down under the stress of shaving. You can see the oxidized edge in a microscope. The solution is to create a new edge made up of only clean metal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

You didn't say whether the razor was new or off Ebay. Many Ebay razors have oxidized edges. Depending on how bad it is, the edge can either crumble when you make it thin on a fine stone. or it may hold up and break down under the stress of shaving. You can see the oxidized edge in a microscope. The solution is to create a new edge made up of only clean metal.

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Joe is right. I had a blade that I could not get to hold an edge let alone shave well. I honed it one day starting with the 220 grit, 1000 grit, 4000 grit, 8000 grit, 12000 grit doing 20 round trips each. This did remove the old edge and start a new one but still it did not shave well. HOWEVER, DO NOT USE THE 220 GRIT AS THIS CRUMBLED THE EDGE AND LEFT IT WITH TINY IRREGULARITIES WHICH ONLY COMPLICATED THE PROBLEM. Joe then suggested after each shave to pyramid the blade using the 4000 and 8000 at a 3/3,3/3,3/3,1/3,1/3,1/3 system and then 20 strokes using 0.5 diamond paste and then 20 strokes on the leather strop.
I actually did this and finally the blade did come out of it and actually bacame a good shaver.
Note: all of the grits except the 12000 were a Norton and the 12000 was a Shapton.