New member - challenged honing

Guys I am a new member. I have been making my way from a Gillette Sensor. I started using safety razors about two years ago. I tried a Gillette superspeed and liked it. I then went to the Gillette fat boy. Made my way to a Gem single edged -Micromatic. I called that the butcher could never shave regularly without cuts. Next tried a Gem JR. I have been using that with a lot of success for over a year.

I always liked the idea of a straight razor but never made the jump. Recently I decided to give it a try. I order an old razor from Ebay. I got a B J Eyre for about $10. I ordered a Norton 1000/8000 combo stone. The razor did not look too bad on arrival. I cleaned it with steel wool, disinfected it, and then polished it. I used a buffing wheel on my drill press and some white compound - looked pretty decent.

I moved on to honing on the Norton stone. Took a bit of work. I started with the 1000 side and worked through some of the surface corrosion. I kept honing until the edge looked pretty smooth. I used a microscope at 100 power to check on my progress. I then moved to the 8000 side. I kept honing until I no longer see progress. Blade feels sharp on nail and thumb. I cannot seem to make any more progress but cannot get close to passing the hanging hair test. Any ideas as to what I could be doing wrong?

I will try to post images of the edge.

Thanks for any help.

Ed

These images are at 150X

This is after the 1000 grit side.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...re/Coarse1.jpg

This is after the 8000 grit side.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...re/SSFine7.jpg

A couple of things. First, I'm not certain that Norton makes a 1k/8k combo. It might, since I'm not all that familiar with the Norton combo hones. I have 7 Nortons but all are single grit hones. Second, if your hone actually is 1k/8k, then that is the problem right there. You cannot jump from 1k to 8k, as the 8k cannot possibly polish out the peaks left by a 1k hone. You are going to have to invest in a Norton 4k hone.

I am a bit tired, so I will try to be short and concise here. Hopefully i do not miss anything.

1) You really need something between the 1k & 8k

2) The Thumbnail test is only good for the initial bevel setting stage. you can ruin the edge you spent all that time working on at the 8k level.

3) I would not worry about the HHT quite yet. It is a test you really need to calibrate with razors that are a known quality. Aka honed by someone else so you know they are shave ready and can interpret the results

4) You are really biting off a lot trying to learn to hone,strop and shave all at once. I think you would be better off sending that razor out to be honed, maybe buying a second razor shave ready if you find a good deal. Then you can concentrate on the basics and stropping. You will not have that worry in the back of your mind that the razor is not as sharp as it should be.

Just knowing what a shave ready razor should feel like is a bigger task than you would think. Bad stropping will take a shave ready razor and make it shave like crap too.

Thanks for those quick responses.

I'm going to try to make a run out to Woodcraft today for a King 4000 grit waterstone - I don't want to have to mail order and wait.

I should hopefully also be receiving an Illinois 835 strop today as well.

If I'm lucky I should be honing again tonight. I went back to the Gem JR today to give my chin some time to recover from yesterday's handiwork. I am really finding dealing with my chin a challenge. My improperly sharpened razor cannot be helping that either. Learning to shave with my left hand as well as my right is also something of an adventure.

Called Woodcraft and they don't have it. I mail ordered it. I guess that will give my chin a week to heal before I get back to it again. Darn that's too bad.

Ed

if this picture is 100x final finish edge then you are doing something wrong.
you will need to have as mentioned early something between 1-8k and when you do work on 8k remember don't use pressure .
(small chips on the edge is sign of 1, pressure,2 is too many passes on nroton 8k)
The best way will be have a razor honed by pro's then take a look to the edge on 100x(which you have)
.After seen properly honed edge you can try to get similar edge.
that will help you more then anything else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

if this picture is 100x final finish edge then you are doing something wrong.
you will need to have as mentioned early something between 1-8k and when you do work on 8k remember don't use pressure .
(small chips on the edge is sign of 1, pressure,2 is too many passes on nroton 8k)
The best way will be have a razor honed by pro's then take a look to the edge on 100x(which you have)
.After seen properly honed edge you can try to get similar edge.
that will help you more then anything else.

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You might be right, but the appearance of the 8k edge could just as likely be the result of the 1k, with the 8k simply failing to remove the remnants of the 1k.

eddy when you say it looked good after 1k did it look like that?

I bet you have a good bit more corrosion to get through.

while waiting for 4k spend some time correcting those chips

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

You might be right, but the appearance of the 8k edge could just as likely be the result of the 1k, with the 8k simply failing to remove the remnants of the 1k.

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Ron i agree with you .
In your case 8k stone hasn't done it is job yet .
he should stay in 8 k longer he has been.
In any way the picture which says after 8k is not looks like 8k edge.
There is no way we could say 100% what is the reason until he gives us more information what he has done how many strokes on each stone, how much pressure etc.
difficult way to go.
i think the best will be he gets 4 k and properly honed blade.
watches the edge how should be and hones his own blade.
i hope he is not changed temper on the blade while he was cleaning with Dremel
.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

4) You are really biting off a lot trying to learn to hone,strop and shave all at once. I think you would be better off sending that razor out to be honed, maybe buying a second razor shave ready if you find a good deal. Then you can concentrate on the basics and stropping. You will not have that worry in the back of your mind that the razor is not as sharp as it should be.

Just knowing what a shave ready razor should feel like is a bigger task than you would think. Bad stropping will take a shave ready razor and make it shave like crap too.

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I notice that you are not addressing some fantastic advice you are receiving from Slartibartfast I quoted above. I don't know if you have special skills already that can get you honing right out the shoot, but I agree wholeheartedly with Slartibartfast. There are many aspects of this art that are very difficult to master in order to bring them all together and get a great shave, so why not start with a shave ready razor and take that mystery out of the equation? Honing is really the last thing that most of us learn. Not that you can't learn it now, but you at least need a properly honed razor to compare your work to.

Man you are taking a VERY big bite at once. I have been shaving with straights since March of this year and have yet to even purchase a hone of any kind. Some people may think that this is slow but i feel that i need to concentrate on my shaving and stropping technique and get them reasonably passable before i throw, what i feel, the hardest thing about straight razor shaving in the mix. I am lucky to have some one in the same town that belongs to this society and is somewhat willing to hone my razors for me. I suggest, as others have in this post, that you send the razor to a person in the classifieds that can hone it for you and take out all the guess work while you are still learning to shave, lather, stretch, strop and learn all the different directions that your whiskers grow in. That is just my humble opinion.

Guys I have given this blade a lot of honing. I think that with the 1k side I have worked through all the corrosion. At the beginning I even had little tiny holes that you could see through the edge at 150x. I removed all of that and then moved on to the 8k side. I thought it was pretty good by running across my thumb. I even took a couple of shaves with it. Was not as smooth as I expected and with my lack of experience I also was wacking my chin.

What led me to look for advice is that most of what I read listed the hanging hair test as a standard test. In no way was the razor capable of meeting that test. That is when I started taking image captures on the microscope and looking for improvement. I did not see the improvement from the 1k to the 8k that I was expecting. If I had taken an image with light from above you could see that the rough cut from the 1k stone was gone but the 8k did not really seem to even up the actual leading edge much. Once it was pointed out that the gap from 1k to 8k was too extreme it made sense to me. I have ordered a 4k stone and if I am lucky it may be here by Saturday.

I also think the advice to get a properly honed blade makes a lot of sense; however, I want to push on and try to see what I can do with the 4k stone when it gets here. I am pretty determined when I set my mind to something and think I should be able to get a good edge. I will obviously know if that is true or not once I get the 4k stone in my hands and a day or so to play with it. I think messing around with the razor and the hones is good fun and think I can see my way through it.

I am also looking to pick up another used razor from Ebay since I have read that it is recommended that one have two razors ready to use. I am also expecting my strop to hit any day now.

In response to an earlier concern about affecting the temper on the blade I am sure that did not happen - the blade was pretty gray and dark when I got it. I used some steel wool to do initial cleaning and then disinfected with Hydrox Hydrocide. I then used a 6" buffing wheel on my drill press at 780 rpm. I am sure that I did not generate enough heat to impact the temper.

I would estimate that I probably put at least 80 round trip strokes on the 1000k stone. There were quite a few irregularities in the blade that I needed to polish through. I probably ran about 60 strokes on the 8k but as I said it did not really even up the leading edge but it did remove the scratches across the surfaces of both sides.

Thanks for all of the good advice. I think I am going to "pretend" shave with my razor during free time before my hone arrives so that I can get a feel for shaving with my left hand. I have not done that before but I find the contortions required to shave both sides of my face with my right hand really complex.

Ed

What I meant by correcting the chips is to hone them out with 1k. that edge as pictured is not ready for 4k:gl:

I cant see the bevel because the image is too dark, but the edge looks like it still has a ways to go, its a bit of a jump from 1k to 8k, but it can be done. its just more labor intensive and time consuming. The HHT is unimportant IMO, and using the thumbnail is to determine if there are chips and nicks in the blade before honing, after the bevel is set the thumbnail should not be used or you will dull the edge destroying your work. While you are at woodcraft for a 4k you might as well pick up something in the 12-16k range as a finisher.

Guys I attempted another round of sharpening today. Same stone the 1000kx8000 Norton. I don't expect to receive the 4000 stone until Saturday at the earliest. I tried using a less pressure on the blade and also doing the X pattern. I initially was using more pressure and going straight across the hone holding the blade off perpendicular.

It feels pretty sharp to me. After running it over the 1k hone side in about three sets of 10 passes it was cutting arm hair pretty nicely. I then ran bout 5 sets of about 10 passes on the 8k side. It feels pretty good to me and tested on leg hair it felt pretty smooth. I also received my strop today.

I am contemplating another test shave tomorrow - maybe avoiding the chin until I get more practice. Most of the nicks have healed pretty well.

I am attaching photos from todays session using a light from above as well as from below.

Let me know what you think.

These images are after the 1000 grit side.

60x
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...1000Medium.jpg

150x
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...1000Medium.jpg

This is after the 8000 grit side.

60x
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...8000Medium.jpg

150x
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...8000Medium.jpg

This is after the 8000 grit with lighting from above as well as below.

60x
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...000bMedium.jpg

150x
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...000bMedium.jpg


Let me know what you think.

I have also started watching the classifieds here on this site to see if I can get my hands on an inexpensive structurally sound razor as well.

Thanks

Ed

you have to stay on 8k a little longer.
your edge is half way in there on 8k.
try take all pressure off and make 10-20 strokes check the edge.
This is the best sign when you done 8k.
when you try to shave your arm hair hair will fall next to the blade silently.(no jumping etc)
if you get this then you have done on 8k,
above skin level.
gl

I agree with Sham, a little more on the 8k and you will be right on target. Great pics, thank you.

The pics are very good and informative.

The bevel is all one color, thats good, if you had 2 different angles on the bevel they would reflect the light differently and show up as 2 colors.

The scratch pattern extends for the full width of the bevel, I hope it does for the full lengthas well.

The scratch pattern is uniform. There is no cross hatching visible, another good sign.

The scratches seem kinda deep for an 8K, that simply reflects that you have not completely replaced the scratches from the 1K with a set of 4K scratches and then replaced the 4k with a set of 8k scratches. Once you use the 4K you will see the difference.

Your doing well, keep at it, but also get a razor honed by someone from the SRP to act as "standard".

Just my $.02,:gl:

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

I used the razor this morning on all of my face except for the chin. It went pretty well but I know that it can get better. At this point it felt kind of like a week old Gem blade. Pretty darn good but I know that it will get better. I am looking forward to working the blade on the 4k when it gets here and being able to use the Pyramid approach that I read about on here- hopefully Saturday.

It still will not pass the hanging hair test. I am looking forward to the time when the blade gets to that point.

I ran it over the strop last night and this morning. After looking at one of the videos on this site it did not seem that complex. Just need more practice so that it is faster and smoother.

I'll keep at it.

Thaniks again for the help.

Ed

weldone Ed , jump in head first its the only way you'l be self sufficent , I think if I had to post razors out to be honed at a cost of 20 -25 each I'd give em up an go back to DE's ,I own one water stone couldnt even tellya what grit it is or anythin about it other than Ive been able to bring all of the razors I have to shave ready on it alone ,they all pass the HHT and yes I have purchased shave ready razors to compare , all ya need is paitence and persistence as your finding it aint the rocket science its often made out to be

You have pictures? I am curious what you are using.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bazz

weldone Ed , jump in head first its the only way you'l be self sufficent , I think if I had to post razors out to be honed at a cost of 20 -25 each I'd give em up an go back to DE's ,I own one water stone couldnt even tellya what grit it is or anythin about it other than Ive been able to bring all of the razors I have to shave ready on it alone ,they all pass the HHT and yes I have purchased shave ready razors to compare , all ya need is paitence and persistence as your finding it aint the rocket science its often made out to be

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So many profiles, so few locations...... you would be surprised at the personal help many SRP members are willing to offer. An hour with someone experienced can save you months of frustration.

We're also missing piles of information -- most importantly pictures of the entire razor -- which might actually have fundamental flaws.

Purchasing a shave-ready razor in the classifieds would have helped too. Several members regularly post low-cost shavers in the $20-30 range. You can get in cheap and at least have a point of reference.

About a year ago I decided that it would be a good idea to have a decent microscope. At the current time I cannot remember what got me started on that but I picked up a used Swift microscope on Ebay for about $50. When it arrived I had to rebuild the mechanical stage, that allows you to move the slides around by using knobs, and have had it available since then.

About a week ago I found that you could get an optical USB eyepiece and that could be used to capture images from the microscope. My scope has two eyepieces so I just replaced one of them. The eyepiece that I am using is made by Celestron #44421. I was able to pick it up for about $50.

If I have time tonight I'll try to grab a picture of the whole razor. It looks pretty decent once I polished it up a bit. It has some corrosion around the hinge are that I could not get at when I buffed out the rest of the blade. I decided that at the current time its not worth the effort to take out the pin to buff out that area.

Ed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stimpy52

Purchasing a shave-ready razor in the classifieds would have helped too. Several members regularly post low-cost shavers in the $20-30 range. You can get in cheap and at least have a point of reference.

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Sorry for snipping you reply and dont think I'm picking on you/ could you explain how this advice would help him sharpen this razor? i dont get it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

Sorry for snipping you reply and dont think I'm picking on you/ could you explain how this advice would help him sharpen this razor? i dont get it?

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If you are learning to hone, it helps to have a reference razor honed by a pro. You need to know what you are shooting for. If you don't have a reference razor, how will you know what a shave ready razor feels like?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

You have pictures? I am curious what you are using.

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http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2...f0007kg.th.jpg
Uploaded with ImageShack.us

here it is , it measures 6"x2"x1"

Here are pictures of the razor itself:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...0075Medium.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...0085Medium.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...0080Medium.jpg

No time for honing today. 4k stone should be here Saturday. That is when I expect to be able to hone again. Until then the plan is to continue shaving with the razor as is.

Ed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alembic

If you are learning to hone, it helps to have a reference razor honed by a pro. You need to know what you are shooting for. If you don't have a reference razor, how will you know what a shave ready razor feels like?

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That's all I was saying.

As for the personal assistance; nothing helped me more than JoeD, Holli4, and Carrie coaching me through the feel of an edge as it developed through the stages.

No way am I a pro honer, but I can get decent edge now on almost any razor I try, and a stinkin sharp edge on some blades I wouldn't have even attempted a year ago. Still learning.

And don't worry about my feelings, a face like mine requires thick skin.

Just saw the pictures of the razor. It looks like you made a nice choice, and I admire how well it polished up.

What I was looking for, and did not see, was signs of excess or uneven spine wear. That might have gotten me wondering about excess honing or excess pressure.

Do you have a Norton 4k coming? I don't have one but I've had the opportunity to use one and they are one terrific stone, extremely versatile.

The spine of the razor before I started on it looked nearly pristine - as far as I could tell. I paid less than $15 for it with shipping from Ebay.

The stone that I have coming is not a Norton. I was looking for a reasonably priced 4k stone and the best price that I found was on a King Ice Bear 4000 grit waterstone 7 1/4 x 2 3/8 x 3/4. I was able to pick it up from Woodcraft for $25.

This hobby like most has a tendency to start sucking up dollars quickly at startup.

Ed

Well guys I am here to give you an update on my introduction to straight razor shaving and honing progress.

I received my King 4000 grit waterstone from Woodcraft on Saturday. I must have run through about 4 cycles of a partial pyramid hone using that hone and 8000 Norton and although I believe that the edge may be slightly sharper it's not what I believe it should be. The blade will occasionally cut a hanging hair. You know if I hold the hair just right, if I swing it fast enough, and happen to get lucky it will nick it - usually with a pinging sound. I don't think that is what is supposed to happen and it may occur on 1 of 10 tries. I did go ahead and purchase a vintage sharpened razor from Holli4's. I am hopeful that it will arrive later this week. That should give me something to compare against.

I also picked up some balsa wood yesterday and using that and some 3/8" pine I put together a two sided balsa strop. I ordered some of the Dovo red and black paste yesterday as well. I need to run the balsa over some sandpaper on a granite tile tonight to level it out and will probably apply some wax as a finish to the pine. I am assuming that using 600 grit to level the balsa should be OK? Once the paste shows up I will attempt using that on the razor and see if it helps.

I have continued shaving with the razor as is. Have not had any more significant nicks in the last 3 or 4 days. I'm doing better with the left hand but am still challenged by the chin and am shaving that area with my Gem razor. I need to do more reading on the shaving process itself. It is kind of hard to maneuver the razor as necessary while maintaining the desired angle. It is obviously more complicated than any other shaving I had attempted to date. I need to get more practice with across the grain during my second pass.

Ed.

Exciting day today. I received my new to me Henckels razor from Dylon @ Holly4's and I also received my Dovo red and black razor paste. Let me point out that the size of the package for that Dovo paste is hilarious. It is smaller than the size of a box of matches. I can say though that so little is used that I am sure it will last many years.

After watching a couple of videos on how to perform a hanging razor test I was able to perform the test properly. My old razor was only able to cut a hair maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 times. The razor from Holly4's cuts them on a regular basis. It is the rare exception when it could not.

I took the red and black Dovo paste and applied to each side of the balsa paddle that I put together a couple of days ago in an x pattern across the paddle. To make a long story short after about 10 minutes of stropping on the balsa paddle I can now get the old razor to cut hanging hairs on a regular basis.

For me at my unskilled level I was unable to sharpen my B J Eyre razor to a level that it could perform the HHT reliably from the Norton 8000 stone. 10 minutes of the balsa paddle was able to do for me what I could not accomplish with hours of work on the hone. There is no question that I needed the hone to remove the original damaged areas of the razor and take out the chips and corrosion that was there and sharpen the blade. I could not however complete the process on this razor on that hone.

I think that pretty much wraps up this thread for me. Now I can focus on learning how to shave with the straight razor.

Ed

Congratulations on your progress to date. The more you do it, the easier (and better) it gets. :tu